BDA pre-CES comment: 5 studios to remain Blu-ray exclusive; new Warner disc 30GB/50GB

[efralope]

In the new CED for today, Andy Parsons, official Blu-ray Disc Association spokeman had some words about the dual layer in their article discussing LG and Warner's recent announcements. There were also comments from Microsoft.

Here are some excerpts:

...

The THD flipper will have Blu-ray and HD DVD content on either side, either as single- or dual layer configurations. As such, we're told there'll be no capacity constraints to limit bonus material and interactive features

...

LG's combo will feature a single drive for Blu-ray and HD DVD playback that was developed by the Hitachi-LG Data Storage joint venture, we're told.

...

The Blu-ray camp took LG's announcement in stride. "We're pleased to have yet another Blu-ray player coming into the market, which will bring the total to seven individual players -- including PS3 -- that consumers can choose from," said Pioneer's Andy Parsons in his role as BDA spokesman. "At the same time, we think that the deciding factor in favor of Blu-ray continues to be our superior content support from seven of eight Hollywood studios, five of which are unique to Blu-ray Disc. The availability of a dual format player is not likely to change this equation at all in our view," Parsons said.

...

HD DVD backer Microsoft seemed ebullient. "In the event a dual player is released this year, we believe HD DVD will be in a favorable position because HD DVD discs are easier to produce, less expensive to manufacture and contain the most advanced interactive capabilities," said Kevin Collins, Microsoft's HD DVD evangelist.

As for THD, Collins told us Microsoft hadn't been "officially briefed" by Warner, but only received "high-level details" about it before the Thurs. announcement. "However, if we look at what Warner has done to date with their same titles on BD and HD DVD, the HD DVD titles will continue to have more features on them," Collins said. "For instance, all the HD DVD Warner titles have bookmarking, title timeline, zoom and Dolby Digital Plus, whereas the equivalent Warner Blu-ray titles do not have those features. Again, this is due to the fact that BD does not have mandatory support in the hardware to support these features," he said. "So, if we were to look at the marketplace today, HD DVD still would have the advantage because the players are cheaper, and the titles have more features. If consumers were wary of being 'burned' they could easily buy these THD titles, and go with the substantially cheaper players and play the HD DVD side of the disc that has more features," Collins said. "It seems obvious with those features and price points that the advantage would be to HD DVD."

It's quite a lengthy article and the whole of it can't be posted, but hopefully these excerpts give you the main course...

-Looks like the BDA isn't expecting any studio defections to neutrality (despite rumors of Lion's Gate popping up) "at all" in their view despite the recent dual-format annoucements

-HD DVD is happier than Blu-ray seemingly about the LG player

-The Warner disc is a dual-layer flipper, so 30GB/50GB


Other things mentioned in the article:

-apparantly, Sony wasn't briefed on the Warner THD disc annoucement, and the only studio that was told details about it is Paramount

-Hitachi expects to release a Blu-ray product before committing to a dual-format player (which they have the technology ready for)

-Thompson/RCA isn't planning and Blu-ray or HD DVD players for 2007

-The patents for Warner's disc will be up for open licensing like other technologies.

-HP may release a dual-format PC with supplies from the Hitachi-LG joint venture that's going to make the LG dual format player

[gooki]

Nice to see Hitachi making steps into the CE industry again (they're a highly underrated company).

[Faceless Rebel]

At least from recent announcements we now understand why Warner Home Video is so gung-ho about HD DVD but the corporate parent Time Warner is so strongly in favor of neutrality. The corporate parent had another division that developed the ultimate format-neutral release format.

[JeffY]

Given that Warner is using VC1 for both formats I doubt we will ever see a 30/50 disc.

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by JeffY

Given that Warner is using VC1 for both formats I doubt we will ever see a 30/50 disc.

If they use VC-1 a 25GB Blu-ray side would fit most content, at lower cost.

I wonder what replication plant will make these THD shiny disc's?

[amillians]

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.

Don't expect 30/50 flippers. Not going to happen anytime soon. At best, if THD takes hold, we'll have 15/25 and 30/25.

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

[Bob Black]

At the same time, we think that the deciding factor in favor of Blu-ray continues to be our superior content support from seven of eight Hollywood studios, five of which are unique to Blu-ray Disc. The availability of a dual format player is not likely to change this equation at all in our view."

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.

[TomsHT]

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything

Second is with HDDVD and the DVD Forum (is Warner part of the DVD Forum?) would bundling a HD DVD title with a format that does not comply with the DVD Forums standards such as Blu-ray go against any rules?

Not sure but I would think all sides would need to agree on something like this but hopefully someone else can clarify it?

But I am glad to hear that they will be 30/50 g disks and not 25/15g disks or something like that but I'd assume everything still will only be encoded once and to the lowest limiting denominator of each of the formats

[longshot]

Thompson/RCA is not producing a BD player? I'm heartbroken.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by TomsHT

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything

I'd be shocked if a 30/50 disc was actually released. It's more likely to be 30/25, even though the technology permits 30/50.

And even then, 30/25 releases would be in low numbers, because quite frankly the technology seems dead in the water before it has even started.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by amillians

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.

I'm told Cinram had a BD50 line installed in November (Panasonic spin-coat based).

Originally Posted by amillians

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

Yeah. Seems all the same old anti-BD arguments hold true here. Warner/Cinram isn't going to magically make a combo w/BD cheap.

"We think HD DVD is strong because of the cost of making discs"

Enter Warner planning to make the most expensive discs of all!

Gary

[Kosty]

I wonder what the ratio of coasters to valid shiny discs would be with the THD concept?

It would have to be SL25 for Blu-ray, I mean if economical production of DL50 is hard how hard is it when trying to slap DL30 HD DVD on the other side?

[CraigW]

The only point of this disc is that it saves retailers from stocking both formats. Sony is not going to use it. Universal is most likely not going to use it. So we possibly have two, WHV and Paramount, of the seven major studios that are going to use it.

Being a Blu-ray owner I am not buying them unless, the disc features(dual layer, loseless audio, etc) are the same for both formats and the producers eat the extra replication cost. I am not paying an additional $10-15 for peace of mind.

[TomsHT]

I'd wonder what the yields to something like this is currently

[Steve Wright]

HD DVD backer Microsoft seemed ebullient. "In the event a dual player is released this year, we believe HD DVD will be in a favorable position because HD DVD discs are easier to produce, less expensive to manufacture and contain the most advanced interactive capabilities," said Kevin Collins, Microsoft's HD DVD evangelist.

And the new dual layer discs from Warner are going to be what?...Cheaper? The cost to the consumer is already going to be at least $5 per disc. So much for HD-DVD's price advantage. HD-DVD, we're not better, we're cheaper! Ugh!

[WickyWoo]

If they try to make a 30/50 flipper disc, it's going to make the DVD-18 defect rate(25%, at least at the beginning) look like a stunning success.

[Mark0]

Woah,
are we sure it's a 50/30GB disk?
I thought that was impossible considering focal length and media thickness.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by TomsHT

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything

Second is with HDDVD and the DVD Forum (is Warner part of the DVD Forum?) would bundling a HD DVD title with a format that does not comply with the DVD Forums standards such as Blu-ray go against any rules?

Not sure but I would think all sides would need to agree on something like this but hopefully someone else can clarify it?

Nope. As long as a company has a)licensed the format, b)pays their royalties, and c)their product is compliant with the spec, they can add whatever other features they want. So they can't release a combo disc if it doesn't meet the specs of either format (i.e. too high an error rate), but there's nothing preventing them from adding other features which don't impact compliance with the spec.

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!

[g5555sim]

wow .. a CE spoke person announcing business plans for ALL Blu-ray exclusive studios .. ..

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by Bob Black

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.

While it doesn't specifically say that, it sure would be embarrassing to make these comments and then have a studio go neutral a few days later. If nobody announces neutrality by the big HD DVD thing that I think is on Sunday, then I wouldn't expect anybody to go neutral this month.

--Darin

[debyrd]

I wouldn't buy the dual format disc. I won't even buy the combo discs they make today.
They cost too much! Who does Warner expect will purchase this new technology?

-Byrd

[HomerJay]

Originally Posted by Bob Black

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.

Exactly my thoughts. Clearly the BDA isn't going to be bragging that their supporters are having second thoughts (I can't imagine they're not!) and just like other denials that happen so frequently when companies are asked pre-show or pre-annoucement, they're not going to spill the beans before they want to spill the beans. It is their announcement and it's going to happen when they want it...anything until that point is speculation.

[hd nOOb]

Originally Posted by HomerJay

Exactly my thoughts. Clearly the BDA isn't going to be bragging that their supporters are having second thoughts (I can't imagine they're not!) and just like other denials that happen so frequently when companies are asked pre-show or pre-annoucement, they're not going to spill the beans before they want to spill the beans. It is their announcement and it's going to happen when they want it...anything until that point is speculation.

Good point. Its seems as thought the BD camp is spilling all there beans before CES. Is this a good thing?

[amirm]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Nope. As long as a company has a)licensed the format, b)pays their royalties, and c)their product is compliant with the spec, they can add whatever other features they want. So they can't release a combo disc if it doesn't meet the specs of either format (i.e. too high an error rate), but there's nothing preventing them from adding other features which don't impact compliance with the spec.

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!

Would BDA grant them a logo license, even though no specification in BDA covers this combo?

BTW, I don't know the equiv. answer for DVD Forum either .

[JosephShaw]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!

The technical specifications are there, but not the contractual obligations that licensees are required to adhere to. I wouldn't expect this information to be public, but if it is, I'd appreciate a link to it. I've looked over the BDA website, as well as the licensing website, and it's not in an obvious place if it's there.

[rlsmith]

Top representatives of both formats have publicly denied that there was any licensing prohibition against combo players. [This was at a conference in SFO this fall, I can find the news article if anyone doubts my word, but it has been referred to numerous times on this forum. Andy Parsons was the BDA rep, I don't remember the name of the Toshiba rep.]

Whether this addresses the issue of a logo license on a combo disk is another matter, but my suspicion is that all licensing is open enough to allow this provided it can be demonstrated to work.

I somehow doubt that either the BDA or the DVDForum is eager to annoy Warners.

We are dealing with some very big companies here (Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft, Warners), and I happen to believe that they are a lot more responsible than many people give them credit for. They also do a lot of business together even while they in other ways compete.

The modern world seems to have gone for open licensing in a reasonable way. The days when RCA ruled patents in the electronics industry are over.

[UxiSXRD]

Originally Posted by efralope

Hitachi expects to release a Blu-ray product before committing to a dual-format player (which they have the technology ready for)

-Thompson/RCA isn't planning and Blu-ray or HD DVD players for 2007

-The patents for Warner's disc will be up for open licensing like other technologies.

-HP may release a dual-format PC with supplies from the Hitachi-LG joint venture that's going to make the LG dual format player

No RCA Tosh clone of the A2? I'm would consider a silver HD-DVD standalone.
I wonder if anyone (Paramount?) would license Warner's discs...

Hitachi's solo release sounds almost certainly like a PC drive that would go with the HP/LG projects, too...

[turansformer]

Originally Posted by rlsmith

They also do a lot of business together even while they in other ways compete.

Don't you just love the art of collusion....

[b2bonez]

Originally Posted by amillians

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.

Don't expect 30/50 flippers. Not going to happen anytime soon. At best, if THD takes hold, we'll have 15/25 and 30/25.

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

HD-DVD/DVD flippers cost 2.5 times that of DVD.. Wonder what the BD/HD flippers are going to cost .

b2b

[turansformer]

Originally Posted by b2bonez

HD-DVD/DVD flippers cost 2.5 times that of DVD.. Wonder what the BD/HD flippers are going to cost .

b2b

Well, if Fox ever makes them I'd expect MSRP to be about $69.99.