SACD and PS3

[HDTV5.1]

How come I am able to pass a dts or a digital dolby 5.1 dvda signal thru the optical out, but not sacd? when i put an sacd in it tell me to change the optical audio setting to something else. what is the difference? what do i need to to? Thanks! Please PM me if you can.

[KMO]

Copy protection. SACDs do not permit output in unencrypted digital form. You'll only be able to get it out through HDMI (because it's encrypted) as 5.1 channel PCM, or the 2-channel analogue outputs.

[KMO]

Alternatively, of course, just play the CD layer.

[s2silber]

Originally Posted by KMO

Copy protection. SACDs do not permit output in unencrypted digital form. You'll only be able to get it out through HDMI (because it's encrypted) as 5.1 channel PCM, or the 2-channel analogue outputs.

Does the signal remain DSD when sent through the two-channel analogue outputs?

[KMO]

Well, it's analogue by that point, so the question is really, did it go straight from DSD to analogue, or did it go via PCM?

I'd normally assume on a Sony product that it wouldn't have gone via PCM, but in this case, as it's not exactly a core function of the box, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the PS3 doesn't have any proper DSD signal paths, and goes via PCM, just as it goes out on the HDMI as PCM.

[JBlacklow]

Originally Posted by KMO

I'd normally assume on a Sony product that it wouldn't have gone via PCM, but in this case, as it's not exactly a core function of the box, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the PS3 doesn't have any proper DSD signal paths, and goes via PCM, just as it goes out on the HDMI as PCM.

It has been mentioned by Sony engineers that the Sony currently only outputs SACD via DSD->PCM. My receiver (Sony STRDG1000) always reads the signal as 5.1 @ 176(.4)kHz PCM, but the original mix on the SACD is retained (i.e., 4.0 is still 4.0, 3.1 is still 3.1, etc). Whether a capability exists to upgrade via firmware to pure DSD via the HDMI 1.3 revision is unknown.

For an optical connection, you may need to change the output from "Bitstream" to "PCM". If you're not using HDMI for audio ouput as well as visual output, check your audio settings and make sure it's set to optical, because the PS3 automatically determines HDMI audio and video by checking the connected devices. It's really cool if your receiver has HDMI capability, but if you're running HDMI to a display and optical to a receiver it can be a hassle.

[KMO]

Originally Posted by JBlacklow

Whether a capability exists to upgrade via firmware to pure DSD via the HDMI 1.3 revision is unknown.

Just to nit-pick - DSD is supported in HDMI 1.2, and a few receivers already support this.

HDMI 1.3 adds DST - the DSD compression system used on SACDs (the equivalent of MLP/Dolby True HD).

[JBlacklow]

Originally Posted by KMO

Just to nit-pick - DSD is supported in HDMI 1.2, and a few receivers already support this.

Correct. I shoukd have pointed that out, and I figured that HDMI 1.3 included the features of previous revisions. Which brings us to...

HDMI 1.3 adds DST - the DSD compression system used on SACDs (the equivalent of MLP/Dolby True HD).

True. In fact several of the PS3's processors are used for both DST->DSD and DSD->PCM. Here's the SACD portion of an interview with the PS3 team:

-SACD is stored in the DST format (= compressed DSD). DST changes compression methods and parameters every 1/75 seconds, which eats huge processing load when decoding. In the first 2 months the developer optimized it into realtime processing. Then he threw away the old source code and wrote a faster new codec in 3 weeks with the knowledge he had gained. It uses 5 SPEs - 3 SPEs for DST decompression, and 2 SPEs for DSD to PCM conversion.

-After that, he debugged it while consulting the professional audio equipments division of Sony that
developed the DSD format itself. It took 6 months.

-Then the audio tuning specialist at the audio division of Sony began to use a PS3 to check the sound of the then unreleased HD receiver TA-DA3200ES. He pointed out where to fix in the PS3's digital audio processing to SCE. It was in the early October, and the dynamic range at that time was 140dB which was the initial goal set by another Sony developer who developed DSD. The PS3 firmware version 1.10 is this version with a few updates. The decimation filter of the SACD decoder outputs at 24bit/88.2kHz.

-However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision. This new firmware version will be available when the BD remote is released in December.

I've bolded portions that seemed the most audiophile-centric, if they have any useful info for KMO or others. I can't personally comment on any difference between SQ between v1.10 (factory) and v1.31 (current) firmwares, as I ddin't get an HDMI-capable receiver until right after v1.30 (the December update mentioned in the interview).

[Sonic icons]

Requoting some of the same material as above:

It was in the early October, and the dynamic range at that time was 140dB which was the initial goal set by another Sony developer who developed DSD. The PS3 firmware version 1.10 is this version with a few updates. The decimation filter of the SACD decoder outputs at 24bit/88.2kHz.

-However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision.

So this quote is saying that there are different levels of quality possible in the DSD-PCM conversion step (the "output of the decimation filter" being PCM), and Sony engineers are currently working on optimizing that step, and [one of] the "Sony developer[s] who developed DSD" is participating in, or supervising, this recent work!? OMG, what happened to the old, simple doctrine of "decimation is bad, PCM is bad at no matter what resolution, DSD-PCM conversion is bad, only direct DSD-analog conversion is good"? Do these new revelations require rewriting previous Sony texts about SACD?

[Miles]

I've just got my PS3 up and running this weekend and had a chance to try out a few SACDs... but am unable to get the multi-channel to work, just 2-channel.

I've got HDMI connection of the PS3 into the back of my Denon 2807 receiver and am able to get multi-channel w/ the Blu-ray movies I've tried.

An example... I insert Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms. I see three options on the screen, CD layer, SACD 2 channel and SACD multi-channel. When I select the multi-channel layer I still only get audio from left and right speakers.

Is there any trick to getting multi-channel SACD working on the PS3?

[cpage]

Originally Posted by Miles

I've just got my PS3 up and running this weekend and had a chance to try out a few SACDs... but am unable to get the multi-channel to work, just 2-channel.

I've got HDMI connection of the PS3 into the back of my Denon 2807 receiver and am able to get multi-channel w/ the Blu-ray movies I've tried.

An example... I insert Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms. I see three options on the screen, CD layer, SACD 2 channel and SACD multi-channel. When I select the multi-channel layer I still only get audio from left and right speakers.

Is there any trick to getting multi-channel SACD working on the PS3?

The 2807 is is only running HDMI version 1.1.. you need a receiver with HDMI version 1.2 in order to pass SACD via HDMI.

[pulsation]

All of this is very confusing to me. Since the PS3 converts the DSD of SACDs into PCM, by definition of DSD isn't there signal loss??? When I play a multi-channel SACD on my PS3, my receiver tells me the PCM signal is sampled at 88.2 kHz. When listening to the same SACD at 2-channel, the sample rate is 176 kHz. However, isn't the native sample size of DSD in the MEGAhertz range (specifically, 2,822,400 hertz). So, if you just do the math...2,822,400 samples scaled down to 88,200 samples or even 176,400 samples just doesn't compare. Now...when I pop Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral" into my PS3 and activate the multichannel track through HDMI, it sounds spectacular, and I really don't know what I would be missing if I got all of the 2,822,400 samples. Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but am I missing something???

[pulsation]

Originally Posted by cpage

The 2807 is is only running HDMI version 1.1.. you need a receiver with HDMI version 1.2 in order to pass SACD via HDMI.

Not true...all you need is a receiver that is HDMI 1.1 compliant. Assuming you set the PS3 HDMI's audio settings to output "PCM" rather than "Bitstream" you should get the 5.1 track. My Pioneer Elite VSX-74txvi is only HDMI 1.1 compliant but it reads the PCM output fine. The only thing it can't do is read the DST encoded stream, but that isn't necessary since the PS3 decodes the DSD/DST internally.

[Sonic icons]

Originally Posted by pulsation

So, if you just do the math...2,822,400 samples scaled down to 88,200 samples or even 176,400 samples just doesn't compare.

Quite true ... 2,822,400 samples/sec * 1 bit/sample = 2,822,400

(think of the 1/bit per sample as "each sample represents either the number 0 or the number 1")

... while 176,400 samples/sec * 24 bits/sample = 4,233,600

(think of the 24/bits per sample as "each sample represents any whole number between +8388608 and -8388608")

So "obviously, it stands to reason" that 2.8224 MHz 1 bit "just doesn't compare", the 176.4 kHz 24 bit "must" produce more realistic, detailed, accurate, holographic sound, why that's almost one and a half million extra bits every second, it boggles the mind!

Well actually, the superiority of 176.4 kHz 24 bit PCM to 2.8224 MHz 1 bit DSD (that I was just claiming, but not seriously) isn't obvious, because of subtleties in digital signal processing, A-to-D conversion, and D-to-A conversion, and so on. I think it's much more likely the case is that both digital sampling formats are essentially perfect, from point of view of audible effects.

I think it's important to always keep in mind that an audio recording/playback system is a long, complicated, multi-part chain, from the microphones in the recording studio, to the speakers in your listening room. But people often write as if you could "focus your ears" on one part of the recording/playback chain, just by thinking about it. Now that would be cool, wish it were possible!

[cpage]

Originally Posted by pulsation

Not true...all you need is a receiver that is HDMI 1.1 compliant. Assuming you set the PS3 HDMI's audio settings to output "PCM" rather than "Bitstream" you should get the 5.1 track. My Pioneer Elite VSX-74txvi is only HDMI 1.1 compliant but it reads the PCM output fine. The only thing it can't do is read the DST encoded stream, but that isn't necessary since the PS3 decodes the DSD/DST internally.

My apologies. I hate to give a wrong answer, but was sure that I was right. It's why I bought a 1.2 capable receiver.

To wrap my own head around this then, 1.2 will pass the DSD via HDMI without the need for conversion to PCM? Or does it always need to convert?

As you stated earlier, I would assume some loss in the conversion to PCM and would like to avoid that if possible.

[KMO]

HDMI 1.2 can carry raw DSD audio . HDMI 1.1 can't - it only carries raw PCM, or low-res compressed PCM bitstreams.

HDMI 1.3 can carry a DST bitstream - the compressed form of DSD, just like it can carry Dolby TrueHD - a compressed form of PCM. Both these facilities are basically pointless, as is most of HDMI 1.3.

For the PS3, all this is moot, because the PS3 can't output DSD - it appears to have no dedicated DSD paths, so DSD always gets converted to PCM anyway.

It's conceivable that the PS3 might be able to output the DST bitstream using HDMI 1.3, I suppose, but I'm not aware of any present or future receiver support for this.

[ToddUGA]

How much better does SACD, played through the analog L/R outputs of the PS3, sound when compared to a regular CD? With a decent amp and speakers would the difference be noticeable?

[KMO]

It should be noticeable, with good enough equipment. Certainly there are plenty of people who believe 2-channel Super Audio CD is worthwhile. Even to the extent of many super-high-end SACD players being 2-channel only.

[Snatcher]

I don't have high end equipment (Paradigm reference studio 60s as mains and and B&W speakers as center and surrounds plus a velodyne sub), and I notice the difference between the SACD and CD layers, it is fuller and way more detailed.

I am using an Onkyo 604 via HDMI connected to the PS3, and it indicates the above stated levels in every case, I was wondering why it didn't correspond to the the ones specified in the discs, now I know.. thanks!

[obie_fl]

Originally Posted by Miles

Is there any trick to getting multi-channel SACD working on the PS3?

Make sure your video resolution is higher then 480P. HDMI allocates the audio bandwidth based on the video resolution with 480P there is only enough bandwidth allocated for two channels. It should work with HDMI 1.1 unless you have a cabling problem or a hardware issue with the Denon or PS3.

[KMO]

Not totally true. It's perfectly possible to carry high-res audio with standard-def video, but the source needs to increase pixel repetition (eg send every pixel 2 or 4 times). However, most sources are too lame to do this, and its possible many receivers and sinks are too lame to support it either.

[Miles]

I have the PS3 passing 1080p

Also, what are the recommended HDMI Audio settings... do you leave it on Auto so that the PS3 presumably picks the sample rates etc. that your receiver might play?

[Miles]

I set HDMI audio back to auto and can get multi-channel for Peter Gabriel's - UP... I'll have to back and see if Beck - Sea Changes and Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms tomorrow.

[audiman]

Can someone hear a SQ difference between the analog output from the PS3 and and the PCM playback thru HDMi to a receiver, for SACD ?

[djmoose]

Originally Posted by audiman

Can someone hear a SQ difference between the analog output from the PS3 and and the PCM playback thru HDMi to a receiver, for SACD ?

Well, for one...you can only get the 5.1 mix via HDMI.

If you're only concerned about the stereo mix...then it's a matter of which device has better digital-analog converters...the PS3 or the HDMI receiver. My money would be on the receiver.

Mine sounds great through the Onkyo 674...but to be fair, I've never even hooked up the analog cables to me PS3.

[avior]

Originally Posted by JBlacklow

It has been mentioned by Sony engineers that the Sony currently only outputs SACD via DSD->PCM. My receiver (Sony STRDG1000) always reads the signal as 5.1 @ 176(.4)kHz PCM, but the original mix on the SACD is retained (i.e., 4.0 is still 4.0, 3.1 is still 3.1, etc). Whether a capability exists to upgrade via firmware to pure DSD via the HDMI 1.3 revision is unknown.

In regards to SACD playback, I thought there was a choice between "bitstream" DSD and onboarded converted PCM via HDMI. The option being for future bitstram/HDMI AVRs.
Can you remember the reference where they stated that there is only PCM output through HDMI
thanks

[KMO]

DSD isn't a "bitstream". It's a raw format like PCM. The "bitstream" output from an SACD would be DST.

[avior]

Thanks KMO for your reply

So you have a choice (if hypothetically there was an HDMI AVR out there to convert DST bitstream) to output a DST bitstream or a Linear PCM through PS3's HDMI.


Although in regards to the Multi AV (analog) output. There is no straight DST to analog conversion? ie. The stereo DST signal is converted to PCM than to analog?
Apparently the stereo CD signal is only available through the Multi AV outlet.

If thats the case you will still enjoy the improved sonics (20/192) of SACD over conventional CD although the "the typical ringing effects of reconstruction filters used with PCM"# won't be eliminated. (I thought that was the major advantage of SACD over CD?)
#wiki..

Also, Can you use the (optional) remote to control SACD and CD playback via Multi AV outlet?

[Sonic icons]

Originally Posted by avior

In regards to SACD playback, I thought there was a choice between "bitstream" DSD and onboarded converted PCM via HDMI... can you remember the reference where they stated that there is only PCM output through HDMI
thanks

Actually (taking note of the difference between DST - the "packed" or "lossless compressed" form in which the digital data is stored on the SACD; and DSD - the unpacked form in which the data can be sent over a digital connection to a receiver), that isn't a bad question. Sony doesn't provide much technical information about SACD digital outputs in the Playstation 3 online user guide. (That isn't surprising, since only a small fraction of Playstation 3 owners are interested in SACD.) The user guide states only "Audio from a Super Audio CD cannot be output from the digital out (optical) connector. Multi-channel content from Super Audio CDs can only be output from the HDMI OUT connector." (confirming what we already know)

http://www.us.playstation.com/conten..._hardware.html

The main reason we think we know that DSD cannot be output by the Playstation 3, at least with present-day firmware, is that several 2006 model receivers are described in the owner's manuals as capable of decoding DSD over HDMI 1.2 (or 1.2a) inputs. Users have connected a Playstation 3 to those receivers, put in a SACD, and observed that the receiver shows a multichannel PCM signal, but never a DSD signal, on the front panel display or OSD.

Further, some owners may have sent an inquiry to Sony tech support, similar to "I tried playing a SACD on my Playstation 3 connected to my HDMI 1.2 receiver. I can get multichannel PCM on the receiver, but not DSD; am I doing something wrong?" and gotten the response that their setup is fine, but the player cannot (at present) send DSD. (Have such communications with Sony been reported on these forums? I'm not sure.)

Finally, a bit of idle speculation about why DSD cannot (yet) be output by the Playstation 3. One of the selling points of SACD - not to consumers, but to record companies - is the strong, allegedly "hacker proof" copy protection. Therefore, before Sony will "sign off" on sending DSD over a new digital interface, they need to spend some time and effort in torture testing the copy protection ("could I break it if I think like a hacker?"). There is an example to support this speculation. Denon provides a proprietary digital audio interface on some of its gear, called DenonLink. SACD was the last format to be added to DenonLink, with version 3 in 2005 or 2006.

[bobpaule]

Originally Posted by audiman

Can someone hear a SQ difference between the analog output from the PS3 and and the PCM playback thru HDMi to a receiver, for SACD ?

PS3-HDMI-RXV2700(HMDI 1.2a) with Paradigm Reference and dedicated monoblock amps with biwired front stage. DPLIIEX-ed of course.

I am falling in love all over again with my 6 channel SACD, love it, love it, love it. Sound sweet as honey. YPAO sure helps (Yammy's 28 band parametric EQ autocalibration).

Needless to say it took me one Mozart piano concerto audition only to remove all my SACDs from the Escient/DVPCX ES carousel combo.