The Next Generation of HDTV Tuners -- With DVD Recorders

[mikemikeb]

The newest DVD recorders from Panasonic, RCA, and Samsung were introduced at the 2007 Consumer Electronics Show. Many included built-in HDTV tuners. Some of them included VCRs.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9675202-5.html
http://www.twice.com/article/CA64052...dustryid=23099

Prices range from $230 to $380 for models with built-in HDTV tuners. These units should be available in stores by the second quarter of 2007.

These tuners join previously introduced models from LG with built-in 5th-generation signal decoders. Prices for those units have still not been officially released.

[jtbell]

But none of them seem to have hard disks, judging from the reports over in the DVD Recorders forum.

[mikemikeb]

Maybe we'll have to wait until 2008, or probably 2009, for that generation of HDTV tuners.

Other desirable features:

* Dual or tri-DTV tuners
* One coax input for QAM and one for an OTA antenna
* TiVo software?

[sebenste]

Am I to understand that if the recording is in 16:9 HD, it will play back in 16:9 downconverted? Even if downconverted to DVD quality, that should still look mighty sharp!

[DanielCard]

Originally Posted by mikemikeb

These units should be available in stores by the second quarter of 2007.

These units will be available in March or there will be nothing in the store because of FCC mandates.

[mikemikeb]

As far as I can tell, the recorders downconvert to 480i, not 480p. I think that widescreen is kept somehow for 4x3 TVs, but I'm not sure if it's going to be formatted so that there will be no bars on widescreen TVs. It may depend on the recorder.

According to CNet, some of these units won't be available until April or May, for whatever reason. It's still unknown when the LG units will be available, so that tells me there's something going wrong with getting production ramped up. Maybe there's a lack of 5th-gen decoders being made?

[videobruce]

Tell me exactly what good is a HD tuner with just a SD (DVD) recorder (other than it will record a HD program in SD)?

[biker19]

Originally Posted by DanielCard

These units will be available in March or there will be nothing in the store because of FCC mandates.

You incorrectly assume that stores and retailers will look at the law the same way you do. Trust me, there'll be lots of analog only tuner equipped stuff on the shelves for many months after the March deadline.

Tell me exactly what good is a HD tuner with just a SD (DVD) recorder (other than it will record a HD program in SD)?

People keep assuming a digital tuner automatically means HD content - when in fact very little stuff available digitally is HD. The tuner will help because in most instances the PQ will be much better than anything recorded via an NTSC tuner. And after 2009 it will be the only way to record OTA.

[bigglare]

Originally Posted by biker19

You incorrectly assume that stores and retailers will look at the law the same way you do. Trust me, there'll be lots of analog only tuner equipped stuff on the shelves for many months after the March deadline.

Silly Rabbit. If you paid attention last march or the year before SD equipment practically dissappeared at all the major retailers once the mandate hit. By the end of march the selection of 25" and larger SDTVs was substantial.

Originally Posted by biker19

People keep assuming a digital tuner automatically means HD content - when in fact very little stuff available digitally is HD. The tuner will help because in most instances the PQ will be much better than anything recorded via an NTSC tuner. And after 2009 it will be the only way to record OTA.

$230 to $300 seems like a HUGE increase from devices that sell for $40 to $100 now. Just because of the addition of a $35 ATSC tuner? C'mon wheres the news on all the smaller brand manufacturers who will still sell VCRs with just an SDTV unit?

And recorders without tuners? Thats like the Mitsubishi and JVC DVHS boxes, and these wont even have 1394 for DTV link, just for camcorder support. I'll probably start buying the tunerless ones and then return them to fill the open box shelves to give them a less appealing image. ;-)

[mikemikeb]

Originally Posted by videobruce

Tell me exactly what good is a HD tuner with just a SD (DVD) recorder (other than it will record a HD program in SD)?

Not to mention that they only record in DD2.0. There's another desired feature we can add to the list: DVD recording and playback in DD5.1!

At least with these units as is, you can watch a program live in HD and DD5.1, even if the TV doesn't have an DTV tuner, or it's broken. Or, if the TV does have a tuner, someone could record one program while watching another.

[arxaw]

Originally Posted by videobruce

Tell me exactly what good is a HD tuner with just a SD (DVD) recorder (other than it will record a HD program in SD)?

It's not an HD tuner, its an ATSC digital tuner. It will be quite useful for recording OTA TV and recording one channel while watching another, just like analog tuner DVD/VCRs. Except the picture quality will be better.

[holl_ands]

Originally Posted by videobruce

Tell me exactly what good is a HD tuner with just a SD (DVD) recorder (other than it will record a HD program in SD)?

Cuz it's a lot cheaper than a $1000+ D-VHS Recorder with internal ATSC Tuner.
or an even more expensive HTPC with ATSC Tuner.....or a Blu-Ray Recorder....

Oh....and it's DIGITAL...

[biker19]

Originally Posted by bigglare

Silly Rabbit. If you paid attention last march or the year before SD equipment practically dissappeared at all the major retailers once the mandate hit. By the end of march the selection of 25" and larger SDTVs was substantial.

The stores around here had analog tuner TVs above 25" well into June.

$230 to $300 seems like a HUGE increase from devices that sell for $40 to $100 now. Just because of the addition of a $35 ATSC tuner? C'mon wheres the news on all the smaller brand manufacturers who will still sell VCRs with just an SDTV unit?

The prices seen so far are for higher end units that currently are in the $200 range - the DVDr threads have all this info - in general about a $60-80 increase for the ATSC equipped DVDrs when comparing apples-apples. That is too much for just the tuner and I expect the prices to come down quickly.

The $100 Funai type DVDr will come soon enough. There aren't many DVDrs below $100 now and don't expect any once the ATSC tuner is added.

[videobruce]

It's not an HD tuner, its an ATSC digital tuner.

Ok, digital. I think you knew what I meant.

Cuz it's a lot cheaper than a $1000+ D-VHS Recorder with internal ATSC Tuner.

Ridiculous price for that deck.

My point was, here is another example of the MPAA putting a stranglehold on consumers for their never ending greed. Yea, you can watch it, but don't think about recording it. We are all in the poor house. Our multi-million dollar mansions morgage payments are due.
'Intellectual property' my ass.

[Rammitinski]

Originally Posted by arxaw

Except the picture quality will be better.

Not necessarily. Lots of variables involved.

[DonB2]

You mean variables like lip sync, disk not found although a blank one is already waiting in the drive for a timed recording, hum in audio- I hope this is solved with ATSC tuners because it never was with some brands of DVD recorders equipt with NTSC tuners, need to reboot to clear bad error messages locked up screens, failure to finalize, can't read disc but it read it two days ago and you have to stick in a completely different DVD to have it read . take it out put the original one back in and than it reads it fine.

I hope these are all bleeding edge technology problems.

Oh and my Verbatim RW DVD's that worked fine until I got 2/3's of the way down thru the stack and then I found nothing but bad DVD's- very frustrating when it causes you to miss recording a show.

And than I just read one an issue on the Panasonic site that says taking a disc in and out over 50 times or power cycling with disc in drive can cause the RW disc to fail.

-DonB2

[dmatch]

Good synopsis DonB2. If my life depended on it I would certainly want an old NTSC VCR as backup so that I would have a much better chance of getting "something". The all or none state of digital can be very frustrating.

Good thing life doesn't depend on it.

dmatch

[Ashley Seymour]

In October 2006 I took the plunge and got a Sony KDS50A2000 and the dish VIP622 with HD recorder. This is heaven!
I had recently purchased the Panasonic DMR-E85H that has a HD recorder and burns to DVD. Just to be sure I received the OPPO 981 in early December.

I concur with a reviewer in cnet who commented he would like more record time on the VIP, and way to transfer HDD recordings. In addition I want to edit the recording on the VIP to cut out commercials and other parts of my choosing. The HDD has to be purged of shows I sometimes don’t get to finish and I will keep a couple of favorites so as not to loose the beauty of HD.

I’ve had to be creative and have a solution that works well enough for now. One recording is Reef of Riches to show friends who come over what HD is really like. The other recording is the Fiesta Bowl while I was away at the game. My brother lives in Florida and like many on the east-coast, went to bed with a minute left and missed the end of the most exciting finish of any college football game. I decided burn a DVD and send him the end of the game.

A recording in SD is indeed pathetic. It was not worth sending as he has a HD TV and wouldn’t be impressed with a VCR like transfer. With a little experimenting I transferred the game to my Panasonic hard drive and split the fourth quarter into a separate title. I then could edit out the commercials and a few minutes of stoppage time to get a one hour recording on the hard drive. I then burned a DVD in XP mode and the result was a recording that looks 90% HD. When the camera doesn’t pan, the effect is 95%, but where it suffers is on motion. Stopping the DVD shows jaggies and some blurring around fast moving objects.

Reef of Riches burned this way looks about 80% as good as the original and that is probably because the original benefits from editing and a pristine treatment compared to a football game that is transmitted on the run.

The method is pretty labor intensive, but once the technique is learned it becomes manageable. It will have to hold me till affordable HD-DVD burners or cheap HD hard drives arrive.

[dssturbo1]

Originally Posted by Ashley Seymour

...A recording in SD is indeed pathetic. It was not worth sending as he has a HD TV and wouldn’t be impressed with a VCR like transfer. With a little experimenting I transferred the game to my Panasonic hard drive and split the fourth quarter into a separate title. I then could edit out the commercials and a few minutes of stoppage time to get a one hour recording on the hard drive. I then burned a DVD in XP mode and the result was a recording that looks 90% HD.....

SD pathetic??
your dish hd dvr downrezzed the program to 480i to send it to your panny hdd recorder. then you burned it to a dvd in 480i which is, ....uummm SD and you say it looks 90% as good as HD. so what is it pathetic or 90% HD?

yes it is a shame dish does not allow a larger hard drive to be installed in their hd dvd like directv and tivo do with the hd tivo and the S3 tivo.

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by DanielCard

These units will be available in March or there will be nothing in the store because of FCC mandates.

FCC mandates affect manufacturing, not retailing. So stores can sell old-technology units, manufactured before the deadline, until the stock runs out.

[Ashley Seymour]

Originally Posted by dssturbo1

SD pathetic??
your dish hd dvr downrezzed the program to 480i to send it to your panny hdd recorder. then you burned it to a dvd in 480i which is, ....uummm SD and you say it looks 90% as good as HD. so what is it pathetic or 90% HD?

yes it is a shame dish does not allow a larger hard drive to be installed in their hd dvd like directv and tivo do with the hd tivo and the S3 tivo.

Oops, a little clarification. The Panny will record in XP, SP, LP, and EP. Recording in SP makes it look like like a recording closer to 480i than 1080i.

So the recording in SP mode (of an HD program) on the Panny looks "pathetic" compared to the HD recording on on the Dish VIP or the XP mode recording on the Panny.

I wrote SD when I ment SP. And 90% as good? Perhaps a bit too enthusiastic.

[dssturbo1]

XP and SP recording modes are both 480i SD.

but hear ya, i have used both to record a HD program downrezzed from my hd tivo and S3 hd tivo and it usually looks pretty darn good in XP or SP SD.