Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

vtms · 01-15-07, 09:20 PM

Sizes & MSRPs:
40-inches ($2,999)
46-inches ($3,999)
52-inches ($4,999)
57-inches ($7,999)
70-inches (TBA)
1080p
LED BLU
Contrast - 100 000:1
Local Dimming
LED Scanning
8ms
HDMI 1.3 (3 ports)
Color Gamut - 105% NTSC
Availability - August 2007 (70-inch model scheduled for release in Q4 2007)

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/s...80p-lcd-hdtvs/

Quote:

The 81 series ups the ante with an LED backlight, bumping the contrast ratio to a measly 100,000:1, and also comes with 10-bit processing, 8ms response time, an ATSC / clear QAM tuner, CEC HDMI, USB, and also lands in August in 40, 46, 52, and 57-inch sizes( for $3000, $4000, $5000, and $7000, respectively).

Jason Bourne · 01-15-07, 10:06 PM

The 81s look really interesting.

Will be accepting Sharp's refund offer for my 52D62U and was planning to plow it into a 52D92U in Feb but now I wonder if I should wait for the Samsung 81.

5 months seems like an eternity in LCD land.

On Aug 15, 2006, the D62Us weren't even out (and banding was not the most common word). I thought I got a great deal at $3400 in mid Oct; now 3 months later, they can be had mid $2Ks....

necrolop · 01-15-07, 10:20 PM

I saw this set in person. Was absolutely impressed. What pissed me off is the Sony people didnt know if the new XBRs were local dimmed or not. So as of now, its the 81 for me.

vtms · 01-15-07, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrolop

I saw this set in person. Was absolutely impressed.

Everyone who's seen it seems to have a similar opinion. Finally, a display we can be excited about.

Quote:

What pissed me off is the Sony people didnt know if the new XBRs were local dimmed or not.

LOL

gate1975mlm · 01-16-07, 02:30 PM

WoW this sure looks like a tv to wait for.

Zankou · 01-16-07, 05:14 PM

This baby finally looks like The One that we've all been waiting for.

OreoJoe · 01-16-07, 07:20 PM

From TWICE (This Week in Consumer Electronics) magazine

Quote:

The high-end 81D LCD TV series, which ships in July at prices to be announced later, employs LED backlighting in four screen sizes. Models will include the 57W-inch LN-T5781D, the 52W-inch LN-T5281D, the 46W-inch LN-T4681D, and the 40W-inch LN-T4081D. Each is said to produce contrast levels of 50,000:1 and produce 105 percent wide color gamut. All will also offer 1920-by-1080p screen resolution, new Super Clear Super Patterned Vertical Alignment (SPVA) panels, WiseLink with Bluetooth wireless connection technology and three HDMI inputs.

The OCAP interactive cable-card system, previously reported as a new feature in the series, has been withdrawn, a company spokesman said.

boostfrenzy · 01-16-07, 07:22 PM

so like $5000 to start then? lol

irkuck · 01-17-07, 09:20 AM

I wonder if LEDBL with Dimming is potentially not creating new types of artefacts. I would like to test those sets with "end of a movie" type material, scrolling white letters on black background. Most of the display would be then dimmed completely but letters would need to be fully lit. In effect it might be that there will be visible non-perfect blacks around letters.

Another observation is that Sony and Samsung use the same panels. But only Sony is showing 70" display with dimmed LEDBL and an 82" prototype. Samsung is targeting such displays only for professional market. It looks like they split the market to avoid competition on higher shelves. This allows Sony to charge 33 k$ for the 70 incher.

007craft · 01-17-07, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtms

Sizes - 40,46,52,57 inches
1080p
120Hz
LED BLU
Contrast - 100 000:1
Local Dimming
HDMI 1.3 (3 ports)
Color Gamut - 105% NTSC
MSRPs - unknown
Availability - July 2007

Quote:

One comparison showed how the LED backlit set, even working at 60 hz, was able to show motion as clear as a conventional set running at 120 hz.

Im confused, are these sets 120hz or not? No article seems to mention if they are while the last one quoted says its 60hz and yet you claim them to be 120. So which is it?

vtms · 01-17-07, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 007craft

Im confused, are these sets 120hz or not? No article seems to mention if they are while the last one quoted says its 60hz and yet you claim them to be 120. So which is it?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/l...ss-conference/

Quote:

Samsung is aping Toshiba's 120Hz response time tech to reduce blurring on LCD (or did Toshiba copy Samsung? Too close to call). Samsung is also adding LED Backlight Scanning.

007craft · 01-17-07, 02:51 PM

well if it truly is 120hz and has all those other features, then im in heaven. I cant wait to get this dream tv of mine. I will pay whatever the cost.

BTW, how come some sites say 50000:1 contrast ratio and other sites say 100000:1? I want to get either the 40 or 46" screen and would like to know which is the contrast ratio.

necrolop · 01-17-07, 03:47 PM

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz. I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.

smaybee · 01-17-07, 06:19 PM

Well at least in the picture at the top of this thread the black areas next to the very bright/white area don't seem to exhibit any halos. I sounds like you observed this set in person at CES, did you think you saw any of these effects? I hope not, I have high hopes that this might finally be the HD LCD Set I will settle on.

vtms · 01-17-07, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrolop

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz.

Okay, so that explains the 60Hz/120Hz confusion. Thanks.

Quote:

I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.

There's little doubt in my mind that Samsung licensed "local dimming" technology from Brightside which owns all the patents for backlight modulation. If I'm right, then this article should serve as a nice explanation of how this technology works and what we might expect. I don't think Samsung will be using 1400 LEDs in their backlights, but still, even a fraction of that number should produce stunning results. We'll have to wait and see. So far, things are looking good.

KZ · 01-17-07, 06:45 PM

Having recently purchased a 720p DLP front projector, I wasn't even planning to buy a flatscreen TV, but this is making me reconsider. I don't own a TV today so the justification for one will be that much easier.

Tango Charlie · 01-17-07, 06:52 PM

Anyone know if it will support 1:1 pixel mapping? <crosses fingers>

Eriol_TCE · 01-17-07, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango Charlie

Anyone know if it will support 1:1 pixel mapping? <crosses fingers>

#1 question for me as well after the fiasco with the last TVs. The only reason I'm NOT getting one is the overscan.

007craft · 01-17-07, 09:02 PM

how bad is overscan that everyone talks about on the samsung sets? I set the sony tv at the store to be full pixel and then viewed it placed right next to the samsung 1080p tv. I could see a tiny bit of overscan on the samsung, losing like a half inch of the picture, but It really didnt bother me that much. I dont know whay people complain about it? I would rather lose that really tiny ammount of tv then deal with banding and cloud issues on other sets. Samsung all the way. Although of course I do hope they allow 1:1 pixel mapping.

bigsid05 · 01-17-07, 09:58 PM

I think the complaint is that there is no 1:1 pixel mapping option on the older models, making it a less than ideal HTPC monitor.

necrolop · 01-18-07, 12:03 AM

Given the type of people who would buy this, 1:1 pm would be a huge oversight. What im wondering is if this will be the replacement of he 95/96 series, or will this be considered a new level, thus have higher MSRP.

I did see this TV, and was very impressed. BUT, The display was on the open floor, not a dark room, and was next to a conventional LCD, but model unknown, and what level was the backlight of the one next to it set? I also didnt look close enough and wasnt thinking about looking for a halo affect.

007craft · 01-18-07, 12:58 AM

Im pretty sure this would be a higher msrp. I believe the 65F series (same tv basically except without the backlight and bluetooth) will be the replacment model for the 95/96 series. I cant see this costing more then $400 extra ontop of the 65f series tho, and Im willing to spend a little more for a better quality television. Then again, this is all new tech, and they could verywell charge an extra $1000 for the 81 series. (lets hope not)

lipcrkr · 01-18-07, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrolop

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz. I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.

I'm worried about the dimming technique. This could resemble the previous generation Panasonic plasmas in which floating blacks became the result. The display would automatically adjust the CR making normal viewing very distracting and annoying. Dimming sounds like a compromise to achieve those CR numbers.

wallstreet123456 · 01-18-07, 08:26 AM

I am waiting to see this set in person. Hope it is as good as people have said.

OreoJoe · 01-18-07, 10:35 AM

We may see in the USA the technology from the European product.

Information from Samsung about MCFI
http://product.samsung.com/semi/ssi_...2006_11_15.pdf

Samsung announced the release of a 40" LCD TV with high powered LED Backlight technology, which received Europe's prestigious "Innovation Award" from the EISA (European Image and Sound Association) for its superb features including LED light source, 146% wide colour gamut and industry leading contrast ratio (10,000:1).
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/P...901_0000284318

1st LCD at 100 Hz: the end of afterglow: Testing the Samsung LE4073BD
http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...afterglow.html

irkuck · 01-18-07, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OreoJoe

We may see in the USA the technology from the European product.
Samsung announced the release of a 40" LCD TV with high powered LED Backlight technology, which received Europe's prestigious "Innovation Award" from the EISA (European Image and Sound Association) for its superb features including LED light source, 146% wide colour gamut and industry leading contrast ratio (10,000:1).

This is 1366x768 set with 2160 LEDs in BL.
The set was reviewed in detail (and in German) here:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/...0M91B_01.shtml

There are many interesting observations regarding LEDBL in this review. The set has dimming which is contributing to spectacular contrast in daylight. But in darkness situation is different, what they note is that black levels are not very good and display is not getting completely black even when displaying black picture.

This sounds like dimming on this set is not the same as in the CES set since the CR is rated at 'only' 1:10 000.

necrolop · 01-18-07, 03:16 PM

dimming vs local dimming.

OreoJoe · 01-18-07, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irkuck

This is 1366x768 set with 2160 LEDs in BL.
The set was reviewed in detail (and in German) here:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/...0M91B_01.shtml

There are many interesting observations regarding LEDBL in this review. The set has dimming which is contributing to spectacular contrast in daylight. But in darkness situation is different, what they note is that black levels are not very good and display is not getting completely black even when displaying black picture.

This sounds like dimming on this set is not the same as in the CES set since the CR is rated at 'only' 1:10 000.

Interesting find. This model would not receive an Innovation Award with its unacceptable performance.

UUronl · 01-20-07, 01:01 PM

This likely is -not- the same LED backlighting used in the EU market panel. That was simply a LED backlight.

This new local dimming sounds very much like the Brightside technology, and if you read the article referenced in this and another thread you might notice that 2006-2007 is the timeframe that the LED technology should "catch up". Previously, the amount of flux required from the LEDs required gobs of power and generated a ton of heat. The original Brightside 37" unit had to be liquid cooled as a result and cost $50,000. Haitz's law, is referenced in the article and is kind of like Moore's law for LEDs. The flux will double, and the power required will be cut in half over a period of time. We've reached the time when this should have happened relative to the original Brightside display, so the timing of this set is about right. The article also spoke about how Brightside was aggressively pursuing licensing agreements will all major manufacturers. I'm hoping that Samsung "bit" and that this is the Brightside technology - or some offshoot of that IP.

It is interesting to note that these new LEDs must be much brighter (newer) since Samsung wasn't able to match the brightness levels at 1080p in the first-gen of LED LCD. It was only a 768p device. This newly announced device is 1080p and as we all know, denser matrices mean lower light output given the same backlight intensity.

vtms · 01-20-07, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UUronl

This likely is -not- the same LED backlighting used in the EU market panel. That was simply a LED backlight.

Yes. Samsung first put its plain LED backlit 40-inch set on European market and now they plan to release 4 new models in US that not only extend the color gamut thanks to LED light, but also drastically increase the contrast thanks to local dimming.

Quote:

This new local dimming sounds very much like the Brightside technology, and if you read the article referenced in this and another thread you might notice that 2006-2007 is the timeframe that the LED technology should "catch up".

Exactly. If one reads the referenced article, it should be apparent that many things about Brightside set are consistent with what we already know about Samsung's 81 series. This is why I strongly suspect Samsung licensed the technology from Brightside. Also, one of the "Asian manufacturers" could be LG which appears to have licensed the same technology as well. (Brightside wanted to license their technology to as many manufacturers as possible). I was quite surprised to learn LG.Phillips plans to release its own locally dimmed set at 1Million:1 contrast ratio in Q2 of this year. That set alone probably deserves its own thread. Sharp has been showing its own 1Million:1 prototype for two years implying this technology was years away from reaching the market. It looks like Samsung and LG have figured out a way to bring this innovation to market early (perhaps because they use different technology than Sharp). Here's a pic of that LG.Phillips' set:

Quote:

Haitz's law, is referenced in the article and is kind of like Moore's law for LEDs.

When that article was written (Oct 2005) LED's had efficacies around 30lm/W. A year later the efficacies have grown to around 100lm/W and the pace of this growth seems to accelerate still. What this means, of course, is that power consumption will not be a problem for locally dimmed sets. The manufacturers will be able to increase resolution of LED backlight without worrying about power, cooling or fans. They will also be able to increase the brightness of these sets well beyond 500cd/m2. And all of it before color-filterless technology shows up in LCDs which will further diminish power consumption levels of LCDs. And speaking of LED backlight, here's how locally dimmed backlight looks like:

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/cedia...1506planarlcd/

Quote:

Planar showed off a prototype LCD panel that is the coolest thing I’ve seen so far at the show. It’s a normal LCD panel with 800 individual LED backlights that are on an active matrix back plane. What that means is that each LED is individually addressable depending on the video signal. Want a section of the screen to be dark? Dim the backlight in that area. The result is a fantastic legitimate contrast ratio, and actual blacks (cause the light is off). The picture above is just what the backlight is doing with the LCD “off.” It’s at least a year away from a real product, but it looks amazing.

And here's how a locally dimmed set (in this case from Planar which, incidentally, looks just like Brightside set with Planar logo on it) looks in action vs. a conventional lcd monitor:

(Obviously when viewed on regular monitor, black and white levels of any high-contrast set will appear crushed.)

01-15-07, 10:20 PM	#3 \| Link
necrolop 1080p you see? Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,323	I saw this set in person. Was absolutely impressed. What pissed me off is the Sony people didnt know if the new XBRs were local dimmed or not. So as of now, its the 81 for me. __________________ CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!

01-16-07, 02:30 PM	#5 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
gate1975mlm Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 227	WoW this sure looks like a tv to wait for.

01-17-07, 09:20 AM	#9 \| Link
irkuck AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: cyberspace Posts: 1,325	I wonder if LEDBL with Dimming is potentially not creating new types of artefacts. I would like to test those sets with "end of a movie" type material, scrolling white letters on black background. Most of the display would be then dimmed completely but letters would need to be fully lit. In effect it might be that there will be visible non-perfect blacks around letters. Another observation is that Sony and Samsung use the same panels. But only Sony is showing 70" display with dimmed LEDBL and an 82" prototype. Samsung is targeting such displays only for professional market. It looks like they split the market to avoid competition on higher shelves. This allows Sony to charge 33 k$ for the 70 incher. __________________ irkuck

01-17-07, 03:47 PM	#13 \| Link
necrolop 1080p you see? Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,323	The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz. I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word. __________________ CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!

01-18-07, 12:03 AM	#21 \| Link
necrolop 1080p you see? Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,323	Given the type of people who would buy this, 1:1 pm would be a huge oversight. What im wondering is if this will be the replacement of he 95/96 series, or will this be considered a new level, thus have higher MSRP. I did see this TV, and was very impressed. BUT, The display was on the open floor, not a dark room, and was next to a conventional LCD, but model unknown, and what level was the backlight of the one next to it set? I also didnt look close enough and wasnt thinking about looking for a halo affect. __________________ CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT! Last edited by necrolop; 01-18-07 at 12:09 AM..

01-15-07, 10:06 PM	#2 \| Link
Jason Bourne Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 408	The 81s look really interesting. Will be accepting Sharp's refund offer for my 52D62U and was planning to plow it into a 52D92U in Feb but now I wonder if I should wait for the Samsung 81. 5 months seems like an eternity in LCD land. On Aug 15, 2006, the D62Us weren't even out (and banding was not the most common word). I thought I got a great deal at $3400 in mid Oct; now 3 months later, they can be had mid $2Ks....

01-16-07, 05:14 PM	#6 \| Link
Zankou New Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 13	This baby finally looks like The One that we've all been waiting for.

01-16-07, 07:22 PM	#8 \| Link
boostfrenzy C6 Driver Join Date: May 2006 Location: West Michigan Posts: 609	so like $5000 to start then? lol

01-17-07, 02:51 PM	#12 \| Link
007craft Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 169	well if it truly is 120hz and has all those other features, then im in heaven. I cant wait to get this dream tv of mine. I will pay whatever the cost. BTW, how come some sites say 50000:1 contrast ratio and other sites say 100000:1? I want to get either the 40 or 46" screen and would like to know which is the contrast ratio.

01-17-07, 06:19 PM	#14 \| Link
smaybee Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 73	Well at least in the picture at the top of this thread the black areas next to the very bright/white area don't seem to exhibit any halos. I sounds like you observed this set in person at CES, did you think you saw any of these effects? I hope not, I have high hopes that this might finally be the HD LCD Set I will settle on.

01-17-07, 06:45 PM	#16 \| Link
KZ Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 43	Having recently purchased a 720p DLP front projector, I wasn't even planning to buy a flatscreen TV, but this is making me reconsider. I don't own a TV today so the justification for one will be that much easier.

01-17-07, 06:52 PM	#17 \| Link
Tango Charlie Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 57	Anyone know if it will support 1:1 pixel mapping? <crosses fingers>

01-17-07, 09:02 PM	#19 \| Link
007craft Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 169	how bad is overscan that everyone talks about on the samsung sets? I set the sony tv at the store to be full pixel and then viewed it placed right next to the samsung 1080p tv. I could see a tiny bit of overscan on the samsung, losing like a half inch of the picture, but It really didnt bother me that much. I dont know whay people complain about it? I would rather lose that really tiny ammount of tv then deal with banding and cloud issues on other sets. Samsung all the way. Although of course I do hope they allow 1:1 pixel mapping.

01-17-07, 09:58 PM	#20 \| Link
bigsid05 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 238	I think the complaint is that there is no 1:1 pixel mapping option on the older models, making it a less than ideal HTPC monitor.

01-18-07, 12:58 AM	#22 \| Link
007craft Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 169	Im pretty sure this would be a higher msrp. I believe the 65F series (same tv basically except without the backlight and bluetooth) will be the replacment model for the 95/96 series. I cant see this costing more then $400 extra ontop of the 65f series tho, and Im willing to spend a little more for a better quality television. Then again, this is all new tech, and they could verywell charge an extra $1000 for the 81 series. (lets hope not)

01-18-07, 08:26 AM	#24 \| Link
wallstreet123456 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 349	I am waiting to see this set in person. Hope it is as good as people have said.

01-18-07, 10:35 AM	#25 \| Link
OreoJoe Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 77	We may see in the USA the technology from the European product. Information from Samsung about MCFI http://product.samsung.com/semi/ssi_...2006_11_15.pdf Samsung announced the release of a 40" LCD TV with high powered LED Backlight technology, which received Europe's prestigious "Innovation Award" from the EISA (European Image and Sound Association) for its superb features including LED light source, 146% wide colour gamut and industry leading contrast ratio (10,000:1). http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/P...901_0000284318 1st LCD at 100 Hz: the end of afterglow: Testing the Samsung LE4073BD http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...afterglow.html

01-18-07, 03:16 PM	#27 \| Link
necrolop 1080p you see? Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,323	dimming vs local dimming. __________________ CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!

01-20-07, 01:01 PM	#29 \| Link
UUronl Advanced Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Arlington, VA, USA Posts: 988	This likely is -not- the same LED backlighting used in the EU market panel. That was simply a LED backlight. This new local dimming sounds very much like the Brightside technology, and if you read the article referenced in this and another thread you might notice that 2006-2007 is the timeframe that the LED technology should "catch up". Previously, the amount of flux required from the LEDs required gobs of power and generated a ton of heat. The original Brightside 37" unit had to be liquid cooled as a result and cost $50,000. Haitz's law, is referenced in the article and is kind of like Moore's law for LEDs. The flux will double, and the power required will be cut in half over a period of time. We've reached the time when this should have happened relative to the original Brightside display, so the timing of this set is about right. The article also spoke about how Brightside was aggressively pursuing licensing agreements will all major manufacturers. I'm hoping that Samsung "bit" and that this is the Brightside technology - or some offshoot of that IP. It is interesting to note that these new LEDs must be much brighter (newer) since Samsung wasn't able to match the brightness levels at 1080p in the first-gen of LED LCD. It was only a 768p device. This newly announced device is 1080p and as we all know, denser matrices mean lower light output given the same backlight intensity.