Would Muslix Have Any Case If We Had Managed Copy?

[Forceflow]

I'm just wondering about the opinion of everyone on whether hackers and other "malcontents" would have a tougher time doing their deeds if Managed Copy had been in place from the getgo of both HD formats.

Personally I think that those that admire them for bringing "fair use" to play would have no argument as Managed Copy (AFAIK) gives us the ability to achieve fair use with our HD optical media. I also fail to see any legal out for people like Muslix if Managed Copy was working and in place. Without a way to make a copy of media that can easily be lost, damaged, or scratched (playback issues) that 25 bucks that one spent for a copy of HD media is null. Fair use implies the ability to enjoy that purchase and use it in a way that it was intended. For instance I've heard of many ways that copies are useful to people (Disney movies for kids get DESTROYED over time, copies for upstairs/downstairs, backups in general).

I'm sure people will remark that even with Managed Copy people would still be interested in cracking AACS and mass distributing HD media but I just can't see it. The market is so small that no one could make money because mass copies require masses that can use and want the discs. That isn't there for any format and likely won't be there for another year or more.

Anyways, counterfactuals like this are always gray, I understand that. I just hope that people could shed some light with thier opinions on how important Managed Copy is and how much effect it could have on dampening desires in general to have copies of their HD DVDs and BDs.

[diogen]

Muslix would happen anyway.
He claimed to have done it to play the movies on non-HDCP monitors.
Whether you believe or not in this "angle" is another question.

Diogen.

[Forceflow]

Originally Posted by diogen

Muslix would happen anyway.
He claimed to have done it to play the movies on non-HDCP monitors.
Whether you believe or not in this "angle" is another question.

Diogen.

I don't. I don't disagree necessarily that a hack would happen, but would have Managed Copy delayed that drive? I mean this happened 9 months into HD DVD's drive and really just as BD was beginning to show some signs of strength and life. Much faster than I expected...

Granted, the AACS hole can be sealed and this can be all a bad memory but I don't see any reaction thus far...

[amirm]

Free managed copy would surely put a dent in the news value of what he is doing. For fee managed copy, probably not as much.

[Richard Paul]

I don't think the presence or absence of managed copy would have had much of an effect on efforts to crack AACS. Also just a guess but I think the incident with Muslix will probably make the studios even more paranoid about managed copy since I doubt any of them were expecting AACS to be broken so quickly or so easily.

[dialog_gvf]

It looks like the hacker Janvitos and others have begun to extract BD title keys using the same software player method as works on HD DVD.

At this point there is no software that decrypts the data using the keys. Assuming the keys are right, I suspect that's only a matter of time.

Edit: Ooops, spoke too soon. It looks like muslix64 has created a decrypter program for the BD files.

Gary

[Grandmaster]

My plasma display has a perfectly capable digital input. Because of the movie industry's obsession with copy protection, I can't directly use it with any HD DVD player or Blu-ray device. Why I should spend thousands of pounds on a new display just to kow-tow to the movie industry's paranoia about copy protection? Similarly, why should I accept a sub-optimal analogue input on my display for the same reasons?

Treat people as though they are criminals and it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The irony is of course that the likes of Sony etc are in the business of producing and marketing the blank media that these ripped movies will eventually end up being burned onto. Not to mention the disc burning devices required to do the job. Talk about a two-faced attitude to piracy.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Grandmaster

The irony is of course that the likes of Sony etc are in the business of producing and marketing the blank media that these ripped movies will eventually end up being burned onto. Not to mention the disc burning devices required to do the job. Talk about a two-faced attitude to piracy.

That makes it sound like the purpose for the drives and media is piracy. There are all sorts of legal uses for A/V and computer data that far outnumber the uses by pirates.

Gary

[knutinh]

If I can use muslix tools, then I can get into HD-DVD for the cost of an xbox HD-DVD drive -about $200.

If not, I will have to get the following unnecessary components
1. new graphics card
2. a new mother board faturing pci-x
3 a new cpu, ram etc

All of this are expenses that I as a legal user have to make ONLY to prevent illegal users (or users that are doing what is perfectly legal in parts of the world or even in the US accordingto federal law, but not according to Hollywood law). You guys are actually argueing for a system that punish legal users and make it really hard not to become a "pirate", or exercise ones legal rights using these kinds of tools... What about those "FBI warnings" that they want me to be forced to watch, I know that Bush likes his cowboy image, but hopefully the FBI wont have any juristiction here in europe anytime soon...

Further, I bet that I will have to switch to a operating system that I dont want (Vista) once aacs get fed up with XP applicationsleag keys.

My leally purchased media will be out of my hands, and rest assured that if the industry was able to do the physically impossible and build a "secure" format, then Sony and Microsoft and all the studios would do their best to mock everything up to milk me for more moneu ("Sorry, but Vista security have been compromised - we have to disable HD-DVD playback until you purchase Longhorn and a new computer to render its fancy gui")


I guess I have a deep distrust against companies that have shown no other motivation than sucking my money out of my pocket. Why should they change to the better if I allow them control of my content? Isnt the threat of users moving to mac or linux or whatever one of the things that keeps the industry from going bananas with "secure" components?

-k

[Grandmaster]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

That makes it sound like the purpose for the drives and media is piracy. There are all sorts of legal uses for A/V and computer data that far outnumber the uses by pirates.

Gary

Then it would be simplicity itself to make the media itself just different enough *not* to be used for piracy but still extremely usable for legitimate applications. With regards legal uses for AV, simply use a different codec, or a different profile of AVC.

I find it hard to believe that the people who implemented AACS and BD+ and even pointlessly encrypted the digital output of the player itself couldn't come up with a system that locked out rips from working on recordable media.

[Rob Zuber]

Managed Copy would make no difference. Just read through the doom9 threads and you will discover what their culture really wants, which is:

- All movies should be free or very very cheap ( a few dollars )
- The ability to share digital copies with anyone else in the world
- The ability to make unlimited digitally perfect copies from rented movies
- No DRM or encryption of any kind or piracy protection of any kind
- PC / CE hardware should be cheap (same price as today's cheap DVD players)

These people aren't going to be appeased by having to connect to the net, give a credit card number, then go through a security process that only allows one (less expensive) DRMed copy to be made, possibly with that DRM tying the copy to specific hardware and with future copies possibly being more expensive.

In fact, the opposite will happen. The Managed Copy process will be aggressively attacked, trying to find easier ways of making pirated copies.

[chap]

He cracked BD without owning BD equipment so no, managed copy would not have slowed him down one bit.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Rob Zuber

Managed Copy would make no difference. Just read through the doom9 threads and you will discover what their culture really wants, which is:

- All movies should be free or very very cheap ( a few dollars )
- The ability to share digital copies with anyone else in the world
- The ability to make unlimited digitally perfect copies from rented movies
- No DRM or encryption of any kind or piracy protection of any kind
- PC / CE hardware should be cheap (same price as today's cheap DVD players)

These people aren't going to be appeased by having to connect to the net, give a credit card number, then go through a security process that only allows one (less expensive) DRMed copy to be made, possibly with that DRM tying the copy to specific hardware and with future copies possibly being more expensive.

In fact, the opposite will happen. The Managed Copy process will be aggressively attacked, trying to find easier ways of making pirated copies.

Zuber you blow things out of proportion. That is not the mindset. Just your interpretation. Nothing that you mentioned is even allowed over there for the most part due to forum rules regarding legality. Anyways, managed copy is worthless to 99.99999% of the people if they charged for it. When Parsons came out saying that some ridiculous people thought MMC would be free I immediately realized managed copy was ridiculous itself. I'm sorry, If I bought the media I should have the right to backup/modify my purchase at whim. I don't care what hollywood says about who actually owns the disc, I bought it, it's mine.

For the first bullet point. Again you exaggerate. But that does bring about a good point. I'm sorry but movies aren't really worth that much. Hell I don't think there is a movie out there that is worth more than 5-10 bucks new. The reason that many people out there get frustrated and pirate media is because it isn't worth the price. As many others on this forum have said, one of the best deterrents to piracy is to give the consumers a good product for a fair price. I buy DVD's out the ying-yang now because of really good prices and the fact that I can do whatever I want with the media. Hell you can get new releases of most movies at 4 for $20 at blockbuster or Hollywood videa a month or so after release. Now that I can justify spending money on.

[knutinh]

Originally Posted by Rob Zuber

In fact, the opposite will happen. The Managed Copy process will be aggressively attacked, trying to find easier ways of making pirated copies.

Or to make copies that are considered legal in large parts of the civilised world, except that Hollywood dont like those laws so they do their best to circumvent them, first by passing (lobbying) laws that makes it illegal to break copy protection - even when youare doing so to exercise another legal right - then by using all kinds of tools as well as brainwashing to impose those rules on the rest of the world.

Judging from many posts on this forum, they are doing a good job.

-k

[trbarry]

By its nature, copy protection is all about hindering your ability to choose how you do things, legal or otherwise. To the extent that becomes bothersome there will always be an incentive to bypass it. I don't expect that to change.

And the more bothersome copy protection becomes, the more public support there will be for bypassing and ignoring it.

For instance, there have been a few DVD's with unskippable commercials at the beginning. I think there would be a very small minority of the public that would object to hackers publishing a way around that particular "feature".

- Tom

[Neo1965]

Originally Posted by Grandmaster

My plasma display has a perfectly capable digital input. Because of the movie industry's obsession with copy protection, I can't directly use it with any HD DVD player or Blu-ray device. Why I should spend thousands of pounds on a new display just to kow-tow to the movie industry's paranoia about copy protection? Similarly, why should I accept a sub-optimal analogue input on my display for the same reasons?

Treat people as though they are criminals and it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The irony is of course that the likes of Sony etc are in the business of producing and marketing the blank media that these ripped movies will eventually end up being burned onto. Not to mention the disc burning devices required to do the job. Talk about a two-faced attitude to piracy.

I used to believe that, but after seeing the pirated DVD9 experience in Canada, including some close friends who should be concerned doing the same, I think the fact of the matter is that people love a bargain more than bad Karma or their conscience.

Until you go to these 10'x15' stores in chinese malls jam packed with hundreds of people from all races and background, waiting their turn to browse the brown cardboard box filled with exact copies of selling disks, you realize bargain hunting is common to all races and gender and religion.

This is not a question of casual copying but disks delivered directly from the factory to a distribution chain with their own business model (based on basically 0 costs).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Neo1965

I used to believe that, but after seeing the pirated DVD9 experience in Canada, including some close friends who should be concerned doing the same, I think the fact of the matter is that people love a bargain more than bad Karma or their conscience.

Until you go to these 10'x15' stores in chinese malls jam packed with hundreds of people from all races and background, waiting their turn to browse the brown cardboard box filled with exact copies of selling disks, you realize bargain hunting is common to all races and gender and religion.

This is not a question of casual copying but disks delivered directly from the factory to a distribution chain with their own business model (based on basically 0 costs).

These people are the problem, not us. And the copy protection on these formats does essentially nothing to stop them (these people have other sources for their copies than retail discs).

Copy protection is very much about reigning in fair use, under the guise of preventing piracy.

As Tom stated, the desire to break copy protection is directly related to how troublesome that copy protection is. The tighter they lock down their content, the more support for copy protection removers will grow, and the more respect for copyright will diminish.

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by Neo1965

you realize bargain hunting is common to all races and gender and religion.

This is not a question of casual copying but disks delivered directly from the factory to a distribution chain with their own business model (based on basically 0 costs).

I agree. AACS being not mandatory on HD DVD ROM disc just escapes me. It is like asking for mass pirate. On the other hand, all bluray movie ROM disc requires AACS and ROM mark. In order for bluray bootleg to have a market, there must be enough buyer equipped with a none AACS&ROM mark mode capable player.

[JayRx1981]

If I recall correctly, wasn't CSS cracked first in order to allow playback on operating systems based on the linux kernel? I would suspect that even if managed copy were in place, muslix and others would still have "cracked" AACS and that there are some who will use the ability to play on non-windows operating systems as their justification. Nor do I disagree with them.

With myself, I own an HDCP compliant monitor, but the Mac Pro's do not at present offer a legitimate HDCP compliant video card. Not only would I have to upgrade my video card to get an HD-DVD drive to work, I'd have to hack my system setup (admittedly simple through titan.kext or natit) as well. And I would have to boot into Windows as opposed to Mac OS X. I'm left out in the cold because of a ridiculous "copy protection" feature that doesn't protect from copying--it just annoys otherwise legitimate users.

So despite the implications of some that everyone who wants AACS cracked are pirates, there are those of us who legitimately just want to play our media.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Grandmaster

Then it would be simplicity itself to make the media itself just different enough *not* to be used for piracy but still extremely usable for legitimate applications. With regards legal uses for AV, simply use a different codec, or a different profile of AVC.

I find it hard to believe that the people who implemented AACS and BD+ and even pointlessly encrypted the digital output of the player itself couldn't come up with a system that locked out rips from working on recordable media.

Actually, I have no idea what is supported off BD-R/RE. Things could already be as you suggested.

But, then all that means is some sort of transcoder needs to be employed. And that is certainly the case if someone wanted to move one of the stolen HD DVD movies onto a BD-R/RE for BD player playback.

I guess one irony in all this is pirates may end up purchasing BD burners to hold HD DVD data.

Gary

[Low Roller]

Originally Posted by stanger89

These people are the problem, not us. And the copy protection on these formats does essentially nothing to stop them (these people have other sources for their copies than retail discs).

Copy protection is very much about reigning in fair use, under the guise of preventing piracy.(emphasis added)

As Tom stated, the desire to break copy protection is directly related to how troublesome that copy protection is. The tighter they lock down their content, the more support for copy protection removers will grow, and the more respect for copyright will diminish.

Great post. This is so obvious, but the MPAA still behaves as if its living in an analog world.

There's a new company out taking a different approach called Streamburst, and what they are doing gives you your full fair use rights, with just a few good will reminders to appeal that your conscience. ArsTechnica has a good article about it, and its definitely worth a read. Here's a few highlights...

A UK startup has some interesting ideas about protecting video content: offer it as high-quality, unencrypted MPEG-4 files already formatted for various user devices. Instead of shackling users with artificial technological limitations on what they can do with their files, Streamburst hopes to secure content using a bit of personalization and a unique watermarking system, and they've already put their system to work selling the Ewan McGregor motorcycle trip documentary Long Way Round.

Burn to DVD? Fine. Transfer video to any portable device? No problem. Don't treat users like criminals? Check.

This approach to content is so different from the one taken by most Hollywood studios that we caught up with Róbert Bjarnason at his home in the UK to talk about his new company and to ask him one simple question: is he crazy?......

.....Bjarnason and Co. wanted the video files to be open and unencumbered, but they still needed to make it easy for for honest people to stay honest. The scheme they hit on does not resemble any traditional DRM. Bjarnason tells me it's an "anti-piracy scheme," not a restriction mechanism.

The first part of the scheme appends a five-second introduction to each purchased show. It's simply a screen that shows the name of the person who paid for the download. It functions as a reminder that the file is intended for personal use, but it's not heavy-handed, and it doesn't restrict use. The video files are unencrypted MPEG-4 and can be burned to DVD for archiving or for watching on a home theater.

But can't people simply strip their names out of the file? Sure they can, says Bjarnason, if they have an MPEG-4 editor. But it would take more time to do that (and to reencode the file) than it would to simply pirate a copy; Bjarnason says it's "harder than downloading." Besides, people who have just paid money to download a show shouldn't be treated like criminals, and are less likely to be the ones seeding P2P networks around the world.

The second part of the scheme is a "watermark." That is, it's not technically a watermark in the usual sense of that term, but the encoding process does strip out a unique series of bits from the file. The missing information is a minuscule portion of the overall file that does not affect video quality, according to Bjarnason, but does allow the company to discover who purchased a particular file.

The goal is to make people more accountable for their actions without artificially restricting those actions. Because of its design, the watermark even survives most editing changes and format shifts; burning to DVD and then ripping back onto a computer doesn't eliminate it.

[AnthonyP]

the answer is most likely NO

think about it with or without MC what he did is no more legal. As for interest, I don't see this as being a "I want to affirm my constitutional right" but either a "can I do it" or "if people have this we can share free movies" either way MC would not have stopped him (unless it was the second and MC allowed unlimited free copies - that has 0 chance of happening)

[gooki]

I agree. AACS being not mandatory on HD DVD ROM disc just escapes me. It is like asking for mass pirate.

I personally take some offence to that comment. All the commercial DVDs i have authored have been released CSS free, and region free. If the production company i worked for asked me to advise them on a HDDVD release I would happily tell them to not encrypt the content.

I'm not asking for mass piracy. I simply respect the customer to make the right decision.

I'm just wondering about the opinion of everyone on whether hackers and other "malcontents" would have a tougher time doing their deeds if Managed Copy had been in place from the getgo of both HD formats.

Had managed copy been working it would have reduced my need to decrypt the content by 30%. The remaining 70% requirement is that i need to by pass the HDCP limitations imposed uppon us. So yes it would have still happened.

Had AACS not been tied in with HDCP (i realy don't see the point of HDCP other than screwing the consumer), and managed copy been functional and free from day one I wouldn't be surprised if the "hack" had come out far later in time.

[Outlaw Z]

Originally Posted by lymzy

I agree. AACS being not mandatory on HD DVD ROM disc just escapes me. It is like asking for mass pirate. On the other hand, all bluray movie ROM disc requires AACS and ROM mark. In order for bluray bootleg to have a market, there must be enough buyer equipped with a none AACS&ROM mark mode capable player.

Do you really want the small companies to have to pay for AACS? They have a hard enough time as it is.

How about public domain content? We have the right to copies it if we want, plus the companies that would distribute that content can only make money off of the manufacturing.

Z

[diogen]

Originally Posted by Rob Zuber

...Just read through the doom9 threads and you will discover what their culture really wants....

Just reminded me a signature line seen somewhere a while ago:
If freedom will be outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom.

Don't worry Rob, there is no chance in hell you will end up in that group...

Diogen.