Do people even know what Surround Music Format are?

[Turtleboy]

People keep starting thread after thread here asking about random surround sound (video) stuff.

I think it's a sad statement -- not about the people posting, but about the industry and how they ruined SACD and DVD-A.

It's not other people's fault they don't know about it (although it is their fault for not reading).

I love my surround discs, and it's sad that it's a dead or dying format.

[thehun]

I disagree, while the industry is partially responsible for the poor sales of Hi Rez music, the bottom line is people don't want it.
If they did, vinyl wouldn'y out sell it, not to mention the Ipod generation.

[Titania]

Awareness of it by the mass market in Australia is practically zero. There have been no noticeable advertising campaigns. No mass media promotion, no billboard advertising, no in store posters and advertising, in fact, most stores don't even know what a DVDa or SACD is. Those that do usually have their DVDa titles amongst the regular DVDs and the SACD's are usually confined to a tiny section of the shelf under 'audiophile' or some such ambiguous category.
That is the problem. I do not believe for one minute that people do not want these discs.
The other thing necessary for hi res to get a move on is for some new releases to be made exclusively available as SACD or DVDa. Both can be produced with the ability to play in a regular CD player or a hi res player.

[oblio98]

People don't want or buy something they:

1) Don't know exisits
2) Can't see in a store
3) Don't hear about on TV
4) Is to hard to use (No digital connection)
5) Doesn't work with their stuff (Need 6 ch in/out equipment)

In some respects, the DTS CD did more for surround than SACD & DVD-A, in that the average Joe with a surround video system could plop one in his player and listen in surround. If he went home with an SACD, he was stuck without buying a new player, a new receiver, and 6 cables. Too much work to listen to "The Stranger" in surround.....

[Titania]

Originally Posted by oblio98

People don't want or buy something they:

1) Don't know exisits
2) Can't see in a store
3) Don't hear about on TV
4) Is to hard to use (No digital connection)
5) Doesn't work with their stuff (Need 6 ch in/out equipment)

In some respects, the DTS CD did more for surround than SACD & DVD-A, in that the average Joe with a surround video system could plop one in his player and listen in surround. If he went home with an SACD, he was stuck without buying a new player, a new receiver, and 6 cables. Too much work to listen to "The Stranger" in surround.....

I particularly agree on points 1,2 and 3.
4 and 5 are less of an issue given that most home theatre amps produced in recent years have discreet inputs.
Considering that SACD and DVDa can both contain formats playable on almost any player (DVDa can have DTS and DD and red book CD as a hybrid, dual sided disc) that too would not be an issue if the record execs would pull their fingers out and release some new stuff exclusively on one of these formats (preferably DVDa).

[PULLIAMM]

Originally Posted by oblio98

People don't want or buy something they:

1) Don't know exisits
2) Can't see in a store
3) Don't hear about on TV
4) Is to hard to use (No digital connection)
5) Doesn't work with their stuff (Need 6 ch in/out equipment)

In some respects, the DTS CD did more for surround than SACD & DVD-A, in that the average Joe with a surround video system could plop one in his player and listen in surround. If he went home with an SACD, he was stuck without buying a new player, a new receiver, and 6 cables. Too much work to listen to "The Stranger" in surround.....

I am betting that #4 is a big factor for many people. If an SACD player output surround through a single cable as DVD players do, I bet sales would increase substantially.

[Titania]

Originally Posted by PULLIAMM

I am betting that #4 is a big factor for many people. If an SACD player output surround through a single cable as DVD players do, I bet sales would increase substantially.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that for one minute. If people have a 5.1 setup, they will have had to place and wire up 5 speakers and a subwoofer with cable runs all around their room, connect all the components of their theater including DVD player, CD player, TV / projector, possibly turntable and cassette deck (they still exist!!) and any other components. They will be wiring up many components with a multitude of different cables. Adding six more is a minor task. A few people will be utilising HDMI or s/pdif (or both) but they will still be running speaker cables and other cables.
Add to that the task of configuring speaker sizes and bass management, along with input modes on amplifiers and video modes on displays and DVD players and suddenly adding six simple RCA cables is something a six year old could do!

It is the lack of publicity and releases that is the problem.

[MichaelJHuman]

Perhaps Blu-ray and HD DVD could hold some promise for the future of multi-channel audio better than 44/16.

[4DHD]

From what I've seen, it has never really been pushed, except for artist like Neil Young.
The local BB got a shippment of DVD-A and SACDs when the store first opened 3 years or so ago and NEVER brought in any more titles. As time went on the choices got fewer and fewer.
Most of my collection I've bought off the internet.
Likewise, the store never promoted hi-res players, even after the combo players came out.

[df12]

Originally Posted by 4DHD

From what I've seen, it has never really been pushed, except for artist like Neil Young.
The local BB got a shippment of DVD-A and SACDs when the store first opened 3 years or so ago and NEVER brought in any more titles. As time went on the choices got fewer and fewer.
Most of my collection I've bought off the internet.
Likewise, the store never promoted hi-res players, even after the combo players came out.

Same story at my Bestbuy. They setup 2 racks, 1 for SACD and 1 for DVD-A way back when..... The selection dwindled over time.... About a month ago I went to take a futile look for anything new... At first it looked as though the section had been restocked! but on closer inspection they merely collapsed the SACD's and DVD-A's into a single rack...

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by Titania

I'm sorry but I don't buy that for one minute. If people have a 5.1 setup, they will have had to place and wire up 5 speakers and a subwoofer with cable runs all around their room, connect all the components of their theater including DVD player, CD player, TV / projector, possibly turntable and cassette deck (they still exist!!) and any other components. They will be wiring up many components with a multitude of different cables. Adding six more is a minor task. A few people will be utilising HDMI or s/pdif (or both) but they will still be running speaker cables and other cables.
Add to that the task of configuring speaker sizes and bass management, along with input modes on amplifiers and video modes on displays and DVD players and suddenly adding six simple RCA cables is something a six year old could do!

It is the lack of publicity and releases that is the problem.

Well it certainly caused me problems and I consider myself somebody who is up with the play on HT. My problem as my AVR didn't have 6 analogue inputs (was purchased at a time when DD was known as AC-3 and before DVD). So for me to get into hirez surround sound, I had to purchase a new DVD player and AVR. That held me back for a long time

Other people's experiences I am sure are quite different.

I agree that if all you had to do was purchase a new player and 6 cables, then it should be a no brainer

[Titania]

Originally Posted by lchiu7

Well it certainly caused me problems and I consider myself somebody who is up with the play on HT. My problem as my AVR didn't have 6 analogue inputs (was purchased at a time when DD was known as AC-3 and before DVD). So for me to get into hirez surround sound, I had to purchase a new DVD player and AVR. That held me back for a long time

Other people's experiences I am sure are quite different.

I agree that if all you had to do was purchase a new player and 6 cables, then it should be a no brainer

That is a fair point. I guess that is yet another reason why I see DVD-Audio as a much more appealing format. DVD-A is not subjected to the same rediculous paranoia that Sony has with SACD and the prevention of digital copying and can, therefore, be output through HDMI. No hi res, multichannel uncompressed signal can be transferred via a single s/pdif connection because the protocol does not allow it. Lightpipe connections can transfer multichannel PCM data through a single connector digitally though.

[KMO]

SACD can be output through HDMI. The Sony PS3 and Oppo SACD players convert to PCM, and HDMI 1.2 permits transmission of the native DSD. The latest Marantz and Yamaha receivers support this, but we're still waiting for players.

And consumer TOSLINK optical connections don't support multichannel PCM.

[Titania]

Originally Posted by KMO

SACD can be output through HDMI. The Sony PS3 and SACD players convert to PCM, and HDMI 1.2 permits transmission of the native DSD. The latest Marantz and Yamaha receivers support this, but we're still waiting for players.

And consumer TOSLINK optical connections don't support multichannel PCM.

I am not surprised that Sony players can output SACD digitally. That is what they want, an advantage over everyone else so they sell more players.

While the TOSLINK specification does not allow MC, the lightpipe connector does. All that is required is a minor addition to the hardware to allow ADAT and similar protocols. The one lightpipe connector can be switched between s/pdif optical and MC optical via software in the player.

[KMO]

Doh - missed the name "Oppo" from that post... Edited it now. This isn't a Sony specific thing.

What is a little odd though is that what with DSD being very much Sony's baby, the PS3 apparently doesn't support DSD output over HDMI. Presumably the dedicated DSD signal paths have been left out for cost reasons.

And there's not much effective difference between SACD and DVD-A when it comes to encrypted protection - DVD-Audio discs usually don't permit unencrypted output either. HDMI 1.1 had to add audio encryption to support DVD-Audio.

So DVD-Audio output would not be permitted over ADAT lightpipe if, as I understand, it is unencrypted.

And on the subject of paranoia, are you not aware that DVD-Audio discs have their sound watermarked to interfere even with analogue copying? You can't record the analogue output of a DVD-Audio player and burn it to a new DVD-Audio, as it will detect the watermark and refuse to play...

I think both formats are paranoid in their own way. Where Sony takes it further is that they don't even permit stereo low-res output over S/PDIF. I suppose at least that helps ensure that people get their connections right - when The Beatles' "LOVE" was released, it became apparent that a lot of DVD-Audio owners had always been just playing the DD/DTS tracks over S/PDIF...

[Jack Gilvey]

Originally Posted by df12

Same story at my Bestbuy. They setup 2 racks, 1 for SACD and 1 for DVD-A way back when..... The selection dwindled over time.... About a month ago I went to take a futile look for anything new... At first it looked as though the section had been restocked! but on closer inspection they merely collapsed the SACD's and DVD-A's into a single rack...

The section has completely disappeared at my local BB.

[Quank]

Adding to the problem, the top online retailer doesn't have their site setup good either. Just do a search for "Pink Floyd SACD" on Amazon.com. Sure, you'll get the 30th Anniversary edition of Dark Side, but the title says nothing about SACD. You have to click on the description to see that it is SACD. So, if you KNOW a release is out there, you can find it. But if you try to browse SACD or DVD-A, you can't.

What kills me is that at this point, it still takes hours to download a DVD via torrent, so releasing titles on hi-res makes sense from a copyright protection standpoint.

Artists like Nine Inch Nails (all new releases in multi-channel, plus blu-ray/hd-dvd concerts), Depeche Mode and Neil Young seem to get this, but the studios don't.

[Titania]

Originally Posted by KMO

And on the subject of paranoia, are you not aware that DVD-Audio discs have their sound watermarked to interfere even with analogue copying? You can't record the analogue output of a DVD-Audio player and burn it to a new DVD-Audio, as it will detect the watermark and refuse to play...

Actually, I own and run a professional mastering facility which includes DVD-Audio creation and there is NO watermarking of the analog audio. There is an option to select what features and how many times they can be copied digitally which can also be turned off but there is no interfering with the analog audio in any way.

I think both formats are paranoid in their own way. Where Sony takes it further is that they don't even permit stereo low-res output over S/PDIF. I suppose at least that helps ensure that people get their connections right - when The Beatles' "LOVE" was released, it became apparent that a lot of DVD-Audio owners had always been just playing the DD/DTS tracks over S/PDIF...

True that.... and I must say I the Beatles 'Love' DVDa is brilliant. It is one of my favourite hi res discs.
I really hope they remix Abbey Road and Sgt Peppers for DVDa too. That would be awesome. I just love the fatness and warmth of those recordings and, of course, the creative brilliance

[Titania]

Originally Posted by Quank

.......Artists like Nine Inch Nails (all new releases in multi-channel, plus blu-ray/hd-dvd concerts), Depeche Mode and Neil Young seem to get this, but the studios don't.

and that is just one of the things I love about DVDa. I am an artist and engineer and I do not need to spend a fortune on Sony DSD hardware and I do not need a commercial pressing house to create a playable master.

[KMO]

Originally Posted by Titania

Actually, I own and run a professional mastering facility which includes DVD-Audio creation and there is NO watermarking of the analog audio. There is an option to select what features and how many times they can be copied digitally which can also be turned off but there is no interfering with the analog audio in any way.

You may not watermark them in your facility, but as far as I'm aware DVD-Audio has the capability, based on the Verance system, and I've seen posts from people seeing the results. One example here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...hp/t41945.html

The watermark is incorporated, allegedly "inaudibly", into the digitised audio waveform itself before it is packed and encrypted onto the disc, and the player has a detector to spot its presence. If it sees the "no copies allowed" watermark on an unencrypted disc, it deduces that the disc is a unauthorised copy and it refuses to play the disc, as the above poster found.

What I'm not aware of is how many discs actually include a sonic watermark, as well as all the other encryption guff.

[ematcion]

No one has mentioned that music no longer is viewed as something that should be done sitting down. In order to appreciate surround (or stereo) music, one has to sit down and be in the "sweet spot". Unfortunately, especially in the last decade, music has become audio wallpaper to vast majority of the consumers out there. Just witness the success of iPod/mp3 players. People don't care about minute nuances of surround mix; they want the music as background soundtrack to their lives.

[KMO]

Except, of course, a lot of people do a lot of their listening in the car, where the listeners are totally captive. It seems very peculiar that all these cars with many speakers fitted so rarely have a proper multichannel sound system.

Interestingly, the first in-car multichannel SACD player was announced this month. About time too... (There are already a few DVD-Audio players around, and some Acura models come fitted with DVD-Audio).

[oblio98]

Originally Posted by Titania

I'm sorry but I don't buy that for one minute. If people have a 5.1 setup, they will have had to place and wire up 5 speakers and a subwoofer with cable runs all around their room, connect all the components of their theater including DVD player, CD player, TV / projector, possibly turntable and cassette deck (they still exist!!) and any other components. They will be wiring up many components with a multitude of different cables. Adding six more is a minor task. A few people will be utilising HDMI or s/pdif (or both) but they will still be running speaker cables and other cables.
Add to that the task of configuring speaker sizes and bass management, along with input modes on amplifiers and video modes on displays and DVD players and suddenly adding six simple RCA cables is something a six year old could do!

It is the lack of publicity and releases that is the problem.

Yes, but you have to spin back 5 years, when these formats were appearing with regularity in stores. I know many folks who wanted to get into 5.1 music, but were not about to buy a new receiver with 5.1 inputs just to play an SACD in 5.1, and if they got the DVD-A, they could only play the DD/DTS.

If these HiRez formats originally worked via the consumers existing TOSLINK or COAXIAL surround connection they already had for DVD and LaserDisc, the music would have gotten more attention.

In the days of MP3, DVD-A and SACD were too much "work" for the average Joe. The fact that today someone can go out and buy ANOTHER NEW RECEIVER with HDMI 1.3 and a player with the same and listen to SACDs that were released 4 years ago does little to motivate them to do so.

It's a missed opportunity, I am afraid.

[Arthur Hancock]

Originally Posted by ematcion

No one has mentioned that music no longer is viewed as something that should be done sitting down. In order to appreciate surround (or stereo) music, one has to sit down and be in the "sweet spot". Unfortunately, especially in the last decade, music has become audio wallpaper to vast majority of the consumers out there. Just witness the success of iPod/mp3 players. People don't care about minute nuances of surround mix; they want the music as background soundtrack to their lives.

Amen to that. As a life-long pro musician (guitarist/singer) I can attest to that. It is impossible to play louder than an American audience can talk. Live music is largely background in the USA, a "white noise" employed to soften the awkwardness of social interaction and inane conversation ("Hey baby, you come here often? I SAID DO YOU COME HERE OFTEN?"). It should be remembered that the U.S. invented the three-ring circus: the crowning insult to any act is to feature TWO OTHER acts performing with you simultaneously (the more is better syndrome).

As to being a "captive audience" in a car, it's not quite the same is it? There's the job of keeping the vehicle on the road, dodging other cars, engine noise, eating, making phone calls, reading, putting on makeup, shaving, worrying about the sales meeting, etc. etc.

The folks who don't listen don't know what they're missing. Give an entertainer your attention and he'll work his heart out for you. Sit down in a home theater, dim the lights, shut your mouth, open your ears, insert SACD/DVD-A and prepare to be transported. My wife and I take our listening time just as seriously as our viewing time.

[PULLIAMM]

Originally Posted by ematcion

No one has mentioned that music no longer is viewed as something that should be done sitting down. In order to appreciate surround (or stereo) music, one has to sit down and be in the "sweet spot". Unfortunately, especially in the last decade, music has become audio wallpaper to vast majority of the consumers out there. Just witness the success of iPod/mp3 players. People don't care about minute nuances of surround mix; they want the music as background soundtrack to their lives.

Funny thing is, I would rather listen to silence than background music. I only listen to music when I am prepared to sit down and give it my full attention. I think of listening to music as a self-sufficient activity, not as an adjunct to something else. This is why I am so passionate about my speakers.

[tlniec]

Originally Posted by Arthur Hancock

Amen to that. As a life-long pro musician (guitarist/singer) I can attest to that. It is impossible to play louder than an American audience can talk. Live music is largely background in the USA, a "white noise" employed to soften the awkwardness of social interaction and inane conversation ("Hey baby, you come here often? I SAID DO YOU COME HERE OFTEN?"). It should be remembered that the U.S. invented the three-ring circus: the crowning insult to any act is to feature TWO OTHER acts performing with you simultaneously (the more is better syndrome).

I hear you! My father-in-law recently played guitar/sung at a local coffee shop, backed up by a good friend of his on percussion (hand drums). They played well-known/"classic" popular songs, and did them really well. They weren't playing especially loud, IMO (and I was sitting 5 feet from the stage), yet a group at a table in the back asked twice for the volume to be turned down, so they could talk.
Even worse: my father-in-law took a break, and a relief act stepped up to play a few songs. This character played some very obscure renditions of songs, centered around his 'unique' vocal stylings and his mastery of the Pan flute (worn on an apparatus similar to that used for hands-free harmonica playing). He played much louder than the main act, but nobody said a word. I'm guessing they were afraid to.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by tlniec

I hear you! My father-in-law recently played guitar/sung at a local coffee shop, backed up by a good friend of his on percussion (hand drums). They played well-known/"classic" popular songs, and did them really well. They weren't playing especially loud, IMO (and I was sitting 5 feet from the stage), yet a group at a table in the back asked twice for the volume to be turned down, so they could talk.

Well, I avoid coffee shops and pubs with live music because I go there for other reasons. Live music at such places is a distraction unless played at a level that makes it no advantage over background. In fact, I find music, live or reproduced, in restaurants annoying and have asked to have it turned down, that I be reseated or, if necessary, that the musicians move away.

I'd feel the same way about someone serving burgers and fries at a symphony concert.

[ematcion]

The funny thing is that if someone knows you're into the intricacies of music reproduction, they'd think you are a weirdo.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ematcion

The funny thing is that if someone knows you're into the intricacies of music reproduction, they'd think you are a weirdo.

So, we don't usually tell them.

[Titania]

Hmmm... sounds like the US is significantly different as far as live music goes.
I live in Melbourne and it is not uncommon for one of the busiest food / shopping / entertainment areas here to have live acts playing in restaurants, on the beach, on stages on the grass around the area and in a few of the pubs.
It is just awesome to go for a walk down one of these streets on a Sunny Saturday afternoon and become part of a bustling and vibrant culture alive with music, food and entertainment. It is just one of the things I truly love about this area and it would be a sad day indeed if the live music was driven out!!
Even better is having the opportunity to perform on one of these days. That is a huge buzz and much more satisfying than typical drunken (patrons, not me!!) pub gigs from the past!!!