SACD+DVD-Audio player that sends full multichannel audio over HDMI

hdmi4ever · 02-03-07, 11:23 AM

Full bandwidth 24/192 multichannel audio over HDMI, for both SACD and DVD-A? Does such a player exist?

KMO · 02-03-07, 01:51 PM

There are loads of such players for DVD-A; it's SACD that's the problem. Don't forget that the native form of SACD is 2.8MHz/1-bit DSD.

At the moment the only choices I'm aware of are the Oppo players, whose model numbers I forget, and the Sony PlayStation 3. If I recall correctly, both of these convert to PCM 176.4/24 or 88.2/24, depending on what your receiver can handle (many receivers can't handle multichannel at >96kHz).

There aren't yet any players that will send the original DSD up HDMI.

At the moment, the best bet (in sensible price brackets) appears to be i.Link or Denon Link.

hdmi4ever · 02-03-07, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMO

There aren't yet any players that will send the original DSD up HDMI.

PCM is fine, as long as it sends the highest audio bandwidth that is on the disc, without lossy conversions in the process.

Quote:

At the moment, the best bet (in sensible price brackets) appears to be i.Link or Denon Link.

Even then it's hard to find anything under $1500 with the other features I want. I guess I'll have to be resigned to the 5.1 analogs. Maybe I can tolerate that if everything else is connected to the receiver by HDMI or SPDIF.

hdmi4ever · 02-03-07, 07:00 PM

I've read up on the Oppo 981 and it seems like it will indeed do the job of passing the high-bandwidth audio over HDMI. And it's only about $200. But I'll have to buy it from somewhere that allows returns, in case the SACD doesn't really work over HDMI.

stuka · 02-03-07, 08:17 PM

The SONY SCD-XA9000ES has DSD out via iLink.

I am waiting a bit longer for the price to go down a little more before getting one.

William · 02-03-07, 08:36 PM

No Sony (PS3 or STB) does DVD-A.

Quank · 02-03-07, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdmi4ever

I've read up on the Oppo 981 and it seems like it will indeed do the job of passing the high-bandwidth audio over HDMI. And it's only about $200. But I'll have to buy it from somewhere that allows returns, in case the SACD doesn't really work over HDMI.

Direct from Oppo, you get a 30 day satisfaction deal and they'll pay for return shipping. Amazon has a nice return policy too but you'll have to pay for return shipping.

Ovation · 02-04-07, 11:04 AM

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

KMO · 02-04-07, 11:54 AM

I'm pretty certain the PS3 converts multichannel SACD to 176.4kHz if the receiver can handle it.

stuka · 02-04-07, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ovation

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.

Titania · 02-05-07, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ovation

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

That is correct. Blu Ray and HD DVD can handle 192/24 MC using DTS Master Audio which is lossless. I'm looking into getting the DTS HD suite for my studio and possibly doing some classical venue recordings in MC at 192/24 using mostly Neumann microphones and Apogee Preamps.

Ovation · 02-05-07, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMO

I'm pretty certain the PS3 converts multichannel SACD to 176.4kHz if the receiver can handle it.

Only if it is converting to the new DTS or Dolby lossless formats first, rather than to uncompressed PCM. And I don't think it is doing that.

Ovation · 02-05-07, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuka

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.

There is no conversion if no bass management or time alignment is performed. I know of NO playback of DSD that includes BOTH bass management AND time alignment that does not also include a conversion of the DSD signal to PCM or multi-bit DXD (and sometimes back to DSD) for MCH playback.

KMO · 02-05-07, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ovation

Only if it is converting to the new DTS or Dolby lossless formats first, rather than to uncompressed PCM. And I don't think it is doing that.

I don't understand this comment. I'm saying it can convert to 176.4kHz multichannel PCM. However, most receivers probably don't support this, as it's beyond the capabilities of DVD-Audio.

What have DTS/Dolby got to do with it?

thehun · 02-05-07, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuka

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.

Aha, but there is nothing to stop the receiving end to convert that to PCM before the DACs.

Ovation · 02-05-07, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMO

I don't understand this comment. I'm saying it can convert to 176.4kHz multichannel PCM. However, most receivers probably don't support this, as it's beyond the capabilities of DVD-Audio.

What have DTS/Dolby got to do with it?

There is no provision for MCH PCM transmission above 96/24 in any gear at this time. ONLY the TrueHD Dolby or DTS HD MA codecs can carry that kind of information, so unless the DSD is being converted to one of those two codecs, then there is NO MCH conversion of DSD to anything higher than 96/24 (most likely 88.2/24) going on ANYWHERE in any player/receiver/pre-pro combination out there.

KMO · 02-05-07, 05:30 PM

Er, you seem to be misunderstanding. No-one's talking about storing multichannel 176.4/24 on a disc, and I agree there's nothing yet than can do that (apart from DTS HD MA; I'm not actually sure that TrueHD can do it).

But HDMI has supported 8-channel 192/24 since HDMI 1.1, if I recall correctly. So there's no reason a PS3 can't output 5.1-channel 176.4/24, either from a converted SACD, or from game content.

Ovation · 02-05-07, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMO

Er, you seem to be misunderstanding. No-one's talking about storing multichannel 176.4/24 on a disc, and I agree there's nothing yet than can do that (apart from DTS HD MA; I'm not actually sure that TrueHD can do it).

But HDMI has supported 8-channel 192/24 since HDMI 1.1, if I recall correctly. So there's no reason a PS3 can't output 5.1-channel 176.4/24, either from a converted SACD, or from game content.

In theory, it could, I suppose, but in reality, it isn't doing so. I just don't want people to get the impression that, at the moment, they can buy a device that outputs anything in MCH higher than 96/24 lossless. It just isn't happening yet.

KMO · 02-06-07, 06:31 AM

Are you saying it doesn't actually do this? I thought I read reports that it did. Or was it that it was going to in a future software update?

No, I'm sure I read people commenting that they couldn't select multichannel 176.4kHz as an option on the PS3, because their receiver didn't handle it (but they could get 176.4kHz 2-channel).

Ah, here's an example post from someone saying their Sony receiver is reporting 5.1-channel 176.4kHz being sent from a PS3:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...Hz#post9445119

Ovation · 02-06-07, 10:11 AM

That's the first I hear/read of it. I will explore further (as I like to know what's out there). However, I think anyone would be hard pressed to blindly identify the difference between 176.4/24 and 88.2/24 (all other things being equal). In PCM, the bit depth is far more important than the sample rate (48/24, again all other things being equal, is better than 88.2/16--though I'm not aware of anything in that format except perhaps in upsampling CD players). Furthermore, with the quality of DACs and ADCs in much of today's gear (mid-fi and up), even after multiple conversions, hi-res still sounds better than standard res (again, all other things--rec. quality, etc.--being equal). Ultimately, we should all just get some hi-res audio gear and start spinning the tunes.

hdmi4ever · 02-07-07, 06:04 AM

I think I'm going to go for a 5-disc SACD+DVDA changer, even though I can't find one that will send SACD over HDMI. I'll just have to place it directly above or below the receiver to minimize the cable entanglement, and use the HDMI for other devices. I generally don't listen to one album start to finish; I usually listen to a couple songs and then go on to the next disc, and I'd hate having to get up from the couch every 5 or 10 minutes to change discs.

However, the selection of such players seems to be severely limited. I couldn't find anything but the Yamaha C950 and C750, and the Marantz VC6001.

Still, I could consider having separate DVDA and SACD changers, provided the DVDA one will send audio over HDMI, since that would mean I can listen to 10 discs without leaving the couch. And doing that probably wouldn't cost much more than a single hybrid player, given the prices of the hybrids.

eric53110 · 02-08-07, 08:21 AM

I have a Pioneer Elite DV-46AV and it only sends DVD-Audio over HDMI (when the output is set at 1080i).

I've read that the Oppo DV-981HD does both via HDMI and is an affordable way to obtain both formats over HDMI, but I believe that it converts SACD to MCH PCM.

wulaw · 02-08-07, 10:31 PM

I have a PS3 coupled with a sony str-dg1000. The receiver identifies the frequency on its display. I can verify that it plays multichannel SACDs at 176.4/24.

DblHelix · 02-09-07, 04:56 AM

You could try the Esoteric DV-60 or the Arcam DV139. I believe both output the full res PCM from DVD-A and the DSD from SACD. The problem though is neither is inexpensive.

KMO · 02-09-07, 07:20 AM

Could you clarify on the Arcam? This is the first I've heard that it has HDMI SACD output, and I'm struggling to find information.

One thing I've read suggests it outputs SACD as 176.4/24 PCM. Do you believe it can output DSD as well? Can you point me in the direction of any references? Arcam's site doesn't mention which version of HDMI it uses. The manual suggests it can output SACD over HDMI; it just doesn't say how.

John Dawson · 02-09-07, 08:17 AM

In the DV137/9 SACD is exported as PCM over HDMI 1.1. This works just fine :-) It will run at 176.4 kHz 24 bit provided the downstream receiver / processor can accomodate that format.

There is in my opinion no advantage in exporting SACD as DSD. It would still need to be converted to PCM in the receiver / processor for bass management etc.

Hope this helps.

John Dawson (Arcam)

KMO · 02-09-07, 10:46 AM

Thanks, John. At last I can add a proper

player to my rather short list of HDMI-capable SACD players (which up to now has just consisted of Oppo and the Sony PS3).

Just to stir things up on the DSD front - do you then not bother to have any direct DSD paths to your analogue outputs, seeing as you see no advantage...?

PS - any Arcam discounts to Cambridge residents?

KMO · 02-10-07, 04:20 AM

John,

I do have one more sensible question - can the DV139 output high-res audio alongside SD pictures? This is something most players don't seem to bother to get right, but the DV139 manual doesn't mention any such limitation, whereas the DV137 does, which makes me hopeful.

If using HDMI, I'd want to keep open the possibility of an external scaler, so I'd want to be able to use the player at 576i with high-res audio. The fact that most players won't do this has so far inclined me towards i.Link rather than HDMI.

JKR1963 · 02-12-07, 04:00 AM

I am hoping that the new Denon DVM-2845CI that comes out next month will be HDMI 1.2A so I can use a single connection for SACD and DVD AUDIO.

If it is only HDMI 1.1, that would be rediculous at this point in time as 1.1 is now not a current standard and Denon should be supplying their customers 1.2A for obvious reasons.

If the 2845 HDMI version is 1.2A I will be buying one if it is 1.1 I will not buy it.

KMO · 02-12-07, 04:06 AM

I totally agree. One of the most basic functions of a player should be to function as a transport - getting the signal off of the disc in a pure digital form for external use. Now that HDMI 1.2 exists, it should be an absolute no-brainer for any SACD player to include DSD output using it, just as a CD player includes S/PDIF and HDMI PCM outputs.

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hdmi4ever AVS Special Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,365	SACD+DVD-Audio player that sends full multichannel audio over HDMI Full bandwidth 24/192 multichannel audio over HDMI, for both SACD and DVD-A? Does such a player exist?

02-03-07, 07:00 PM	#4 \| Link
hdmi4ever AVS Special Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,365	I've read up on the Oppo 981 and it seems like it will indeed do the job of passing the high-bandwidth audio over HDMI. And it's only about $200. But I'll have to buy it from somewhere that allows returns, in case the SACD doesn't really work over HDMI. Last edited by hdmi4ever; 02-03-07 at 07:14 PM..

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stuka Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 227	The SONY SCD-XA9000ES has DSD out via iLink. I am waiting a bit longer for the price to go down a little more before getting one.

02-03-07, 08:36 PM	#6 \| Link
William AVS Special Member AVS CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,698 Classified Rating: 100% (2)	No Sony (PS3 or STB) does DVD-A. __________________ William

02-09-07, 08:17 AM	#26 \| Link
John Dawson Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 168	Arcam DV139 and SACD over HDMI In the DV137/9 SACD is exported as PCM over HDMI 1.1. This works just fine :-) It will run at 176.4 kHz 24 bit provided the downstream receiver / processor can accomodate that format. There is in my opinion no advantage in exporting SACD as DSD. It would still need to be converted to PCM in the receiver / processor for bass management etc. Hope this helps. John Dawson (Arcam)

02-03-07, 01:51 PM	#2 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	There are loads of such players for DVD-A; it's SACD that's the problem. Don't forget that the native form of SACD is 2.8MHz/1-bit DSD. At the moment the only choices I'm aware of are the Oppo players, whose model numbers I forget, and the Sony PlayStation 3. If I recall correctly, both of these convert to PCM 176.4/24 or 88.2/24, depending on what your receiver can handle (many receivers can't handle multichannel at >96kHz). There aren't yet any players that will send the original DSD up HDMI. At the moment, the best bet (in sensible price brackets) appears to be i.Link or Denon Link.

02-04-07, 11:04 AM	#8 \| Link
Ovation AVS Special Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada Posts: 2,406	DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

02-04-07, 11:54 AM	#9 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	I'm pretty certain the PS3 converts multichannel SACD to 176.4kHz if the receiver can handle it.

02-05-07, 05:30 PM	#17 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	Er, you seem to be misunderstanding. No-one's talking about storing multichannel 176.4/24 on a disc, and I agree there's nothing yet than can do that (apart from DTS HD MA; I'm not actually sure that TrueHD can do it). But HDMI has supported 8-channel 192/24 since HDMI 1.1, if I recall correctly. So there's no reason a PS3 can't output 5.1-channel 176.4/24, either from a converted SACD, or from game content.

02-06-07, 06:31 AM	#19 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	Are you saying it doesn't actually do this? I thought I read reports that it did. Or was it that it was going to in a future software update? No, I'm sure I read people commenting that they couldn't select multichannel 176.4kHz as an option on the PS3, because their receiver didn't handle it (but they could get 176.4kHz 2-channel). Ah, here's an example post from someone saying their Sony receiver is reporting 5.1-channel 176.4kHz being sent from a PS3: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...Hz#post9445119

02-06-07, 10:11 AM	#20 \| Link
Ovation AVS Special Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada Posts: 2,406	That's the first I hear/read of it. I will explore further (as I like to know what's out there). However, I think anyone would be hard pressed to blindly identify the difference between 176.4/24 and 88.2/24 (all other things being equal). In PCM, the bit depth is far more important than the sample rate (48/24, again all other things being equal, is better than 88.2/16--though I'm not aware of anything in that format except perhaps in upsampling CD players). Furthermore, with the quality of DACs and ADCs in much of today's gear (mid-fi and up), even after multiple conversions, hi-res still sounds better than standard res (again, all other things--rec. quality, etc.--being equal). Ultimately, we should all just get some hi-res audio gear and start spinning the tunes.

02-07-07, 06:04 AM	#21 \| Link
hdmi4ever AVS Special Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,365	I think I'm going to go for a 5-disc SACD+DVDA changer, even though I can't find one that will send SACD over HDMI. I'll just have to place it directly above or below the receiver to minimize the cable entanglement, and use the HDMI for other devices. I generally don't listen to one album start to finish; I usually listen to a couple songs and then go on to the next disc, and I'd hate having to get up from the couch every 5 or 10 minutes to change discs. However, the selection of such players seems to be severely limited. I couldn't find anything but the Yamaha C950 and C750, and the Marantz VC6001. Still, I could consider having separate DVDA and SACD changers, provided the DVDA one will send audio over HDMI, since that would mean I can listen to 10 discs without leaving the couch. And doing that probably wouldn't cost much more than a single hybrid player, given the prices of the hybrids.

02-08-07, 08:21 AM	#22 \| Link
eric53110 Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cudahy, WI Posts: 35	I have a Pioneer Elite DV-46AV and it only sends DVD-Audio over HDMI (when the output is set at 1080i). I've read that the Oppo DV-981HD does both via HDMI and is an affordable way to obtain both formats over HDMI, but I believe that it converts SACD to MCH PCM.

02-08-07, 10:31 PM	#23 \| Link
wulaw New Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	I have a PS3 coupled with a sony str-dg1000. The receiver identifies the frequency on its display. I can verify that it plays multichannel SACDs at 176.4/24.

02-09-07, 04:56 AM	#24 \| Link
DblHelix Advanced Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Posts: 726	You could try the Esoteric DV-60 or the Arcam DV139. I believe both output the full res PCM from DVD-A and the DSD from SACD. The problem though is neither is inexpensive.

02-09-07, 07:20 AM	#25 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	Could you clarify on the Arcam? This is the first I've heard that it has HDMI SACD output, and I'm struggling to find information. One thing I've read suggests it outputs SACD as 176.4/24 PCM. Do you believe it can output DSD as well? Can you point me in the direction of any references? Arcam's site doesn't mention which version of HDMI it uses. The manual suggests it can output SACD over HDMI; it just doesn't say how.

02-09-07, 10:46 AM	#27 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	Thanks, John. At last I can add a proper player to my rather short list of HDMI-capable SACD players (which up to now has just consisted of Oppo and the Sony PS3). Just to stir things up on the DSD front - do you then not bother to have any direct DSD paths to your analogue outputs, seeing as you see no advantage...? PS - any Arcam discounts to Cambridge residents?

02-10-07, 04:20 AM	#28 \| Link
KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	John, I do have one more sensible question - can the DV139 output high-res audio alongside SD pictures? This is something most players don't seem to bother to get right, but the DV139 manual doesn't mention any such limitation, whereas the DV137 does, which makes me hopeful. If using HDMI, I'd want to keep open the possibility of an external scaler, so I'd want to be able to use the player at 576i with high-res audio. The fact that most players won't do this has so far inclined me towards i.Link rather than HDMI.

02-12-07, 04:00 AM	#29 \| Link
JKR1963 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 247	I am hoping that the new Denon DVM-2845CI that comes out next month will be HDMI 1.2A so I can use a single connection for SACD and DVD AUDIO. If it is only HDMI 1.1, that would be rediculous at this point in time as 1.1 is now not a current standard and Denon should be supplying their customers 1.2A for obvious reasons. If the 2845 HDMI version is 1.2A I will be buying one if it is 1.1 I will not buy it.

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KMO Advanced Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: England Posts: 934	I totally agree. One of the most basic functions of a player should be to function as a transport - getting the signal off of the disc in a pure digital form for external use. Now that HDMI 1.2 exists, it should be an absolute no-brainer for any SACD player to include DSD output using it, just as a CD player includes S/PDIF and HDMI PCM outputs.