$1000/meter HDMI cables??

[tonyfan70]

Holy sh*t, I just opened my March Home Theater mag, and on page 26, there is a piece about these new "active" HDMI cables by VisionWare. Among the benefits...claim to allow lower signal degradation over longer runs. I thought that digital cables either worked or didn't, no in between...1's and 0's right? Either way, I spent less than $2000 on a TV, use a $1000 cable??? Know what I mean? I was pretty happy with the $11 HDMI cable that Insight sold me. Works, too!

[LinusMundane]

I hear the "works or it doesn't" thrown around a lot too, but what I don't understand is, if thats true then why do they make different gauge cables? To fool people into thinking they are better? or are they generally better, I mean it's tru it's all 1's and 0's, but a fatter pipeline can send more 1's and more 0's through, right?

[11001011]

Originally Posted by LinusMundane

I hear the "works or it doesn't" thrown around a lot too, but what I don't understand is, if thats true then why do they make different gauge cables? To fool people into thinking they are better? or are they generally better, I mean it's tru it's all 1's and 0's, but a fatter pipeline can send more 1's and more 0's through, right?

Well its a little of both...

A larger gauge wire is going to have a lower resistance so can be longer before it starts dropping signal.

When you are talking 3 foot cables then bigger gauge is just a marketing gimmick.

[Nitemage]

Originally Posted by LinusMundane

I hear the "works or it doesn't" thrown around a lot too, but what I don't understand is, if thats true then why do they make different gauge cables? To fool people into thinking they are better? or are they generally better, I mean it's tru it's all 1's and 0's, but a fatter pipeline can send more 1's and more 0's through, right?

Actually, there is a reason for the differences in gauge. Lower gauge, thicker cables, have less signal loss.

Does this mean you need them? Well that depend on your application. The lower gauge cables are generally used if you have long cable runs or if multiple interconnections are needed on the same run. If you are making short connections of 15 feet or less there really is no need for the lower gauge cables.

Regardless, as long as you are not seeing sparkles on your display at the display's highest resolution, you will not see a difference with a better cable, whether it is $10 or $1000 dollars.

Additionally, if you check out www.monoprice.com you will find some of the lowest cost cables available. Numerous members of this forum have used these cables with great success. (PS - I am in no way affiliated with monopice other then I use their cables )

[matthess]

With digitial cables, such as HDMI and TOSLink , you kind of need to change your perception on what a better cable will actually *do*.

No matter what, from your $11 HDMI cable to the $1000 you saw, you should not be getting any noise, distortion, or any other degration to that extent. If we were talking about component cables, then that is the point to base this around.

With digitial cables, yeah - put simply - it is 1's and 0's. And what will go wrong with lower quality cables is a phenomenon called "jitter" ... basically the timing in between the 1's and the 0's getting all out of whack.

Original Signal: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
$11 Cable Signal: 0 ....... 10111 .... 0 ........ 0 ........ 11 ..... 0 ...................... 1
$1000 Cable: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
*EDIT* Apperantly AVSForum condenses extrenuouse spaces. Ignore the periouds, just there for spacing.

Now what does that mean to you..?
Less artifacting, less ghosting, sharper picture with video signals.
More articulate high's and low's and overall better dynamic range with audio.

I've played around with this a lot, I used to be skeptical about this too, but it really does shine through. Find a nearby store with a 30-day return policy and try out some of the really good stuff - in-home trial!

Generally, I find $100/1M or $150/2M to be around the price point for HDMI that I am comfortable with. Play around with it for yourself, there *IS* a difference to be seen.

Cheers,
Matt

[whoaru99]

What property of the cable is it that would induce this jitter?

[dallas27]

Originally Posted by matthess

With digitial cables, such as HDMI and TOSLink , you kind of need to change your perception on what a better cable will actually *do*.

No matter what, from your $11 HDMI cable to the $1000 you saw, you should not be getting any noise, distortion, or any other degration to that extent. If we were talking about component cables, then that is the point to base this around.

With digitial cables, yeah - put simply - it is 1's and 0's. And what will go wrong with lower quality cables is a phenomenon called "jitter" ... basically the timing in between the 1's and the 0's getting all out of whack.

Original Signal: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
$11 Cable Signal: 0 ....... 10111 .... 0 ........ 0 ........ 11 ..... 0 ...................... 1
$1000 Cable: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
*EDIT* Apperantly AVSForum condenses extrenuouse spaces. Ignore the periouds, just there for spacing.

Now what does that mean to you..?
Less artifacting, less ghosting, sharper picture with video signals.
More articulate high's and low's and overall better dynamic range with audio.

I've played around with this a lot, I used to be skeptical about this too, but it really does shine through. Find a nearby store with a 30-day return policy and try out some of the really good stuff - in-home trial!

Generally, I find $100/1M or $150/2M to be around the price point for HDMI that I am comfortable with. Play around with it for yourself, there *IS* a difference to be seen.

Cheers,
Matt

bs. pure bs.

[FiberOpticDude]

Sorry matthess but your following statement you made is false -

"Now what does that mean to you..?
Less artifacting, less ghosting, sharper picture with video signals.
More articulate high's and low's and overall better dynamic range with audio."

I work at a semiconductor manufacturer that makes chips that go in HDMI and DVI systems and have spent that last three years doing a lot of work measuring cable performance, HDMI/DVI TMDS transmitter and receiver performance, measuring output jitter, phase noise, attenuation, intra-pair skew etc...

When an HDMI or DVI has problems, the results are bit errors, or the receiver's PLL cannot maintain lock. The manifestations of these errors are flickering pixels, entire horizontal lines that may flicker blue or green or red (for RGB transmission), and eventually the bouncing of the image as the beginning of frame information gets errored, then finally a blank screen. The term "artifacts" is generally used for visual distortions you get from digital compression. Ghosting will not occur through HDMI and a softening of the image will not happen through HDMI.

For audio you will not get a decreased dynamic range or less articulate highs or lows. You will get pops or drop outs.

HDMI cables can cause timing jitter. This is due to reflections occurring at the connectors and intra-pair skew. This jitter, when very bad, will simply cause bit errors. This jitter, if not very bad, will get removed by the receiver through the PLL and elastic storage buffer.

But I don't see anything wrong with spending $100 on an HDMI cable if you've got the spare cash and it doesn't bother you. You are probably getting good connectors and well controlled transmission lines. Me, I use a $20 HDMI 1m cable that is error-free in my system. I'm only running 1080i over 1m which is very easy.

[tonyfan70]

[quote=FiberOpticDude]For audio you will not get a decreased dynamic range or less articulate highs or lows. You will get pops or drop outs.

Do you mean a "pop" like the snap that occurred every time D.W. started to speak during the Bud Shootout? I couldn't tell if the noise was something on FOX's end, maybe when they switched mikes or something, but when you say that it makes me wonder. I was going to wait till Tony Stewart wins the Daytona 500 to see if the snap was cured or not.

[Gandu]

Originally Posted by FiberOpticDude

I work at a semiconductor manufacturer that makes chips that go in HDMI and DVI systems and have spent that last three years doing a lot of work measuring cable performance, HDMI/DVI TMDS transmitter and receiver performance, measuring output jitter, phase noise, attenuation, intra-pair skew etc...

Me, I use a $20 HDMI 1m cable that is error-free in my system.

FiberOpticDude - AVS Forum should send your post to every member via PM regarding HDMI cables. It would free up 20% of the bandwidth wasted in the various forums debating this very question. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[louthewiz]

It's a good thing nobody mentioned "Power cords" in this thread.

[Hawk2007]

I think that stuff is made specifically for people who either

A) have a crapload of money to blow
B) like Steven Spielberg, who can write the purchase off on his income taxes since it's for "business".

[mlhm5]

Blue Jeans Cable - check them out

[penngray]

Generally, I find $100/1M or $150/2M to be around the price point for HDMI that I am comfortable with. Play around with it for yourself, there *IS* a difference to be seen.

matthess, the difference between you and I......

I knowingly waste my money on things like gambling, etc. I have no confusion over the fact that a casino is going to take my money over time. I spend it still because of the rush and once in awhile I hit it big.

You waste your money based on pure BS. Who ever convinced you of what you posted is a great sales guy and/or you are easily convinced of things. You do understand that the human brain has the ability to convince your senses of what they are seeing or hearing.

Your brain knows its expensive cable, your brain convinces you its great. It is that simple.

[ejunior2]

Originally Posted by louthewiz

It's a good thing nobody mentioned "Power cords" in this thread.

POWER CORDS!

[Mobius_570]

This reminds me of the time that an employee at Best Buy tried to sell me a mouse with gold connections. It was about $50 more than a normal mouse, but he claimed it would make me a better gamer because the connection was better and therefore had a quicker response. Again anything digital produces 1's and 0's and i tried to explain that to him. But since he was the one working there and I wasn't, that made him right and me wrong.

I use the 3 ft cable from Monoprice and I don't see anything bad about it. It works great.

[02mingreyGT]

good ol best buy

[Tobester]

I was in a BB yesterday to pick-up a $5 part I needed. Before I could get out a guy tried to sell me a $500 monster power conditioner. If your not a micowave engineer or not yet fully educated in H/T matters it can get very confusing on what is really needed and what is expensive fluff. This and other forums like it or invaluable to ordinary folks just trying to have a good a/v system. I can't say enough how thankful I am to being able to tap into such a knowledge bank as avsforum.

Tom

[Gir_1337]

Originally Posted by FiberOpticDude

Sorry matthess but your following statement you made is false -

"Now what does that mean to you..?
Less artifacting, less ghosting, sharper picture with video signals.
More articulate high's and low's and overall better dynamic range with audio."

I work at a semiconductor manufacturer that makes chips that go in HDMI and DVI systems and have spent that last three years doing a lot of work measuring cable performance, HDMI/DVI TMDS transmitter and receiver performance, measuring output jitter, phase noise, attenuation, intra-pair skew etc...

When an HDMI or DVI has problems, the results are bit errors, or the receiver's PLL cannot maintain lock. The manifestations of these errors are flickering pixels, entire horizontal lines that may flicker blue or green or red (for RGB transmission), and eventually the bouncing of the image as the beginning of frame information gets errored, then finally a blank screen. The term "artifacts" is generally used for visual distortions you get from digital compression. Ghosting will not occur through HDMI and a softening of the image will not happen through HDMI.

For audio you will not get a decreased dynamic range or less articulate highs or lows. You will get pops or drop outs.

HDMI cables can cause timing jitter. This is due to reflections occurring at the connectors and intra-pair skew. This jitter, when very bad, will simply cause bit errors. This jitter, if not very bad, will get removed by the receiver through the PLL and elastic storage buffer.

But I don't see anything wrong with spending $100 on an HDMI cable if you've got the spare cash and it doesn't bother you. You are probably getting good connectors and well controlled transmission lines. Me, I use a $20 HDMI 1m cable that is error-free in my system. I'm only running 1080i over 1m which is very easy.

Finally, someone who sincerely knows what they're saying!

I was at Tweeters not that long ago to audition some different receivers, and the guy tried to convince me that the $1000 toslink was far better than the $7 one I had. He tried to say "it's like looking through different panes of glass". To which I replied, "No, it's like receiving 1's or 0's. You do or you don't". Needless to say he didn't believe me.

[BoblK]

Maybe you have to put those cables on these "Cable Elevators" to make them work better


I'm sure since they improve your audio, they will also improve the video. How do I know, you ask? Why not!

What a bargin, only $160 for eight!!

[Gir_1337]

Originally Posted by BoblK

Maybe you have to put those cables on these "Cable Elevators" to make them work better


I'm sure since they improve your audio, they will also improve the video. How do I know, you ask? Why not!

What a bargin, only $160 for eight!!

Haha, now THAT'S ridiculous!

[David Susilo]

Originally Posted by matthess

Original Signal: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
$11 Cable Signal: 0 ....... 10111 .... 0 ........ 0 ........ 11 ..... 0 ...................... 1
$1000 Cable: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1

Cheers,
Matt

Thanks for the laugh, Matt!

[RainZagrada]

lol @ the jitter explanation.

[RainZagrada]

the plain truth is that there is no way on earth a cable could cost anywhere near 1000 bucks to make. Its just companies wanting to sell you snake oil. I agree to a certain extent higher quality cables will help with system performance and stability however overpriced cables are just a ripoff.

buy a HDMI Cable .....or a Xbox360, a year of live, 3 controllers, and VGA adapter cable? hrmm tough call *roll eyes*

[erkq]

Originally Posted by matthess

Original Signal: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1
$11 Cable Signal: 0 ....... 10111 .... 0 ........ 0 ........ 11 ..... 0 ...................... 1
$1000 Cable: 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1

The $11 cable described above would have to be an "active" device, having an HDMI receiver and transmitter with clocking and memory circuits in between to handle inserting these delays into the CLOCKED bit stream. With the HDMI licensing fees, this completely useles piece of electronics would cost a heck of a lot more than $11! Good grief, the crap people believe...

[DonoMan]

Originally Posted by mlhm5

Blue Jeans Cable - check them out

www.monoprice.com - just as good and way cheaper

And yes, the jitter stuff above is rather amusing. Glad to see people calling BS on it before I got here

[namechamps]

Originally Posted by DonoMan

www.monoprice.com - just as good and way cheaper

And yes, the jitter stuff above is rather amusing. Glad to see people calling BS on it before I got here

I second monoprice. Great store, great cables, great prices and no BS.


There is one advantage to higher quality cables and that is in longer runs it is harder to maintain equal length on the signal pairs. The higher quality cables tend to cost more. If you get a cheap long cable you may end up with more sparklies, dropouts, and garbage. You will know instantly if you need a better cable. There is none of the subtle dynamic colors, or improved cripsness or any of that BS. If you buy a cheap cable you will know it the first time you turn the HDTV on.

I have found $10-$20 cables from monoprice to work fine. If you need to make a 50' or100' run then you may need a higher quality cable. If you are going more than 100' likely you will need more exotic solutions like active repeaters or fiber optics.

[erkq]

Originally Posted by namechamps

If you get a cheap long cable you may end up with more sparklies, dropouts, and garbage. You will know instantly if you need a better cable. There is none of the subtle dynamic colors, or improved cripsness or any of that BS. If you buy a cheap cable you will know it the first time you turn the HDTV on.

Glad to see informed voices prevail in this discussion!

[arbitrage54]

Originally Posted by FiberOpticDude

through HDMI and a softening of the image will not happen through HDMI.

For audio you will not get a decreased dynamic range or less articulate highs or lows. You will get pops or drop outs.

HDMI cables can cause timing jitter. This is due to reflections occurring at the connectors and intra-pair skew. This jitter, when very bad, will simply cause bit errors. This jitter, if not very bad, will get removed by the receiver through the PLL and elastic storage buffer.

But I don't see anything wrong with spending $100 on an HDMI cable if you've got the spare cash and it doesn't bother you. You are probably getting good connectors and well controlled transmission lines. Me, I use a $20 HDMI 1m cable that is error-free in my system. I'm only running 1080i over 1m which is very easy.

Two questions:

1. How are those 1's and 0's transmitted on cables. I'm an armature at everything and I know about as much about this as I know about botany and medicine (enough to kill trees and make people sick.) Is it electrical pulse (no current is 0 and current is one) or sine wave RF thing (trough is 1, and crest is 0)

2. Are there any cables that I should consider paying a high price for? What about fiber optic cables? Do I want shielded cables next to all my a/v equipment or is there no interference?

[Jimstolz]

So... is RF shielding necessary in an all-digital cable such as HDMI? If it's either "on" or "off", is there any way that so much interference would come through the cable that it would send a false "on" signal?