1.2 vs. 1.3 HDMI. 100% practical seriousness, how much of a difference is there?

[Jdog35]

I'm not super interested in an "MS sucks because they didn't include 1.3...etc." response, but more of a "advanced-basic/intermediate" user response. My buddy is contemplating this "upgrade" to an Elite, and has no idea if this system will be good enough for him, nor what the functional difference between the 1.2 and 1.3 is.

So, with respect to the question, what will be/is the BASIC functional difference between 1.2 and 1.3 HDMI in the specific context of the XBox 360 and HD-DVD drive function?

He only has a 5.1 setup now, and might move to 6.1 in the near future. He's running a 720P projector that will handle1080P over component, but (obviously) won't upconvert standard DVDs over the component (copywrite/security law correct?). When the 1080P projector prices drop, it will likely be hanging off his ceiling very soon.

Thank you in advance. To the soap-boxers out there who want to rag on MS in every thread regarding the Elite's shortcomings, you are entitled to your opinion (and I don't entirely disagree with a lot of it), but could you please start/continue the rant on a different thread so I can somewhat navigate the responses here? Thank you soap-boxers too.

[formulanerd]

HDMI 1.0

Released December 2002.

* Single-cable digital audio/video connection with a maximum bitrate of 4.9Gbps. Supports up to 165Mpixels/sec video (1080p60Hz or UXGA) and 8-channel/192kHz/24-bit audio.

[edit] HDMI 1.1

Released May 2004.

* Added support for DVD Audio.

[edit] HDMI 1.2

Released August 2005.

* Added support for One Bit Audio, used on Super Audio CDs, up to 8 channels.
* Availability of HDMI Type A connector for PC sources.
* Ability for PC sources to use native RGB color-space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr CE color space.
* Requirement for HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support low-voltage sources.

[edit] HDMI 1.2a

Released December 2005.

* Fully specifies Consumer Electronic Control (CEC) features, command sets, and CEC compliance tests.

[edit] HDMI 1.3

Released 22 June 2006.[7] [8]

* Increases single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps)
* Optionally supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC with Deep Color or over one billion colors, up from 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous versions.
* Incorporates automatic audio syncing (lip sync) capability.
* Supports output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers.[9] TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. If the disc player can decode these streams into uncompressed audio, then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary, as all versions of HDMI can transport uncompressed audio.
* Availability of a new mini connector for devices such as camcorders.[10]
* The Sony PlayStation 3 is the first product available on consumer market with HDMI 1.3.[11]
* Epson has released the EMP-TW1000 as the first display supporting 30-bit deep color.[12]

[edit] HDMI 1.3a

Released 10 November 2006.[13]

* Cable and Sink modifications for Type C
* Source termination recommendation
* Removed undershoot and maximum rise/fall time limits.
* CEC capacitance limits changed
* RGB video quantization range clarification
* CEC commands for timer control brought back in an altered form, audio control commands added.
* Concurrently released compliance test specification included.

[bfdtv]

So, with respect to the question, what will be/is the BASIC functional difference between 1.2 and 1.3 HDMI in the specific context of the XBox 360 and HD-DVD drive function?

No benefit with a HD-DVD playback. There is potential benefit with a future Blu-ray add-on, since most of those titles are authored with basic HDMV and can output their audio streams (DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, etc) over a HDMI 1.3 connection to a future HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver.

The primary benefit of HDMI 1.3 for a gaming console is support for xvYCC, an extended color space offering 180% of the NTSC color gamut. The PS3 can support that, and although no current games use it, they could in the future. If indeed Microsoft is using HDMI 1.2, then their Xbox360 games can never support xvYCC.

Understand -- just because some HDMI 1.3 display can accept a xvYCC signal with all those extra colors doesn't mean it can actually put them on the screen. Existing display technology -- even upcoming HDMI 1.3 LCDs -- can barely produce 100% of the existing NTSC color gamut, so creating games with 180% of the NTSC color gamut would be rather pointless right now. But in three years, who knows?

If Microsoft really did stick with HDMI 1.2, they probably figure they'll have their next-generation console (Xbox1080 ?) out in the market before any significant number of displays can actually produce most of those extra colors.

[formulanerd]

the biggest difference people are complaining about (as you can see in the list) is the support for TrueHD and DTS-HD lossless audio.


actually, i'm going to change that, IMO the biggest complaint comes because the ps3 has it and the 360 doesnt, even though like the poster above me said, it'll be years before it will truely be needed (other than for lossless audio)

[bfdtv]

Originally Posted by formulanerd

the biggest difference people are complaining about (as you can see in the list) is the support for TrueHD and DTS-HD lossless audio.

If they are complaining about that for HD-DVD, they are seriously confused.

The overwhelming majority (90+%) of HD-DVD titles are authored in advanced content mode, which means they rely on internal mixing and do not support direct bitstream output over HDMI 1.3. Instead, the player must decode the TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams internally and output them as LPCM. HDMI 1.2 can do that just well as HDMI 1.3.

In contrast, the overwhelming majority of Blu-ray titles are offered in basic HDMV and will output their codecs over HDMI. There's a good reason for that -- the current v1.0 Blu-ray players do not even support audio mixing, so no titles were designed that way. All new Blu-ray players released after October 31, 2007 must support the v1.1 profile which does adds internal audio mixing, persistant storage, and picture-in-picture capability. Next year, you will probably see Blu-ray titles that require internal decoding as HD-DVD titles do today, but none exist yet.

[formulanerd]

Originally Posted by bfdtv

If they are complaining about that for HD-DVD, they are seriously confused.

The overwhelming majority (90+%) of HD-DVD titles are authored in advanced content mode, which means they rely on internal mixing and do not support direct bitstream output over HDMI 1.3. Instead, the player must decode the TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams internally and output them as LPCM. HDMI 1.2 can do that just well as HDMI 1.3.

In contrast, the overwhelming majority of Blu-ray titles are offered in basic HDMV and will output their codecs over HDMI. There's a good reason for that -- the current profile v1.0 Blu-ray players do not even support audio mixing, so no titles were designed that way.

i agree, i dont know all the facts, but IMO most people are complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Jdog35]

Thank you two so much. That was the type of answer I was looking for, and thought myself. Especially the "IMO most people are complaining for the sake of complaining" comment. Right on the money.

My gut told me that for the practical future (i.e. 2-4 years), true use of a 1.3 HDMI wouldn't be realized by my friend, even with a new 1080P projector sometime next year. So my gut was right this time, it appears.

Thank you guys for the practical info. I read the numbers all day and night, but functional usage vs. numbered potential is always different. Thanks again.

[tqlla]

Well, if he plans on upgrading his receiver to an HDMI receiver capable of Dolby TruHD and DTS MA, then he would want HDMI 1.3

[srohde]

Originally Posted by tqlla

Well, if he plans on upgrading his receiver to an HDMI receiver capable of Dolby TruHD and DTS MA, then he would want HDMI 1.3

But I think the point is that the 360 has no reason to output TruHD and DTS MA. Those will be decoded in the 360 and output in LPCM.

[formulanerd]

Originally Posted by srohde

But I think the point is that the 360 has no reason to output TruHD and DTS MA. Those will be decoded in the 360 and output in LPCM.

bingo.


and if he wants 1.3 for ps3/bluray... he's in the wrong forum.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by bfdtv

The primary benefit of HDMI 1.3 for a gaming console is support for xvYCC, an extended color space offering 180% of the NTSC color gamut. The PS3 can support that, and although no current games use it, they could in the future. If indeed Microsoft is using HDMI 1.2, then their Xbox360 games can never support xvYCC.

I don't think xvYCC support has ever been mentioned with the PS3 before (at least not that I have heard). What has been mentioned before though is Deep Color which increases the number of color gradations possible from 24-bit RGB up to 30-bit/36-bit RGB. It isn't currently supported by the PS3 but it is very, very likely to be added to the PS3 by firmware update at some point in the future. In fact some of the HDMI companies even showed Deep Color off using a PS3 at a demonstration at CES.

Originally Posted by Jdog35

My gut told me that for the practical future (i.e. 2-4 years), true use of a 1.3 HDMI wouldn't be realized by my friend, even with a new 1080P projector sometime next year. So my gut was right this time, it appears.

Well actually there are Deep Color displays coming out this summer and by this fall I think we will see some 1080p projectors with Deep Color support. Personally though I wouldn't recommend delaying the upgrade to the Xbox 360 Elite simply because of the version of HDMI used. After all if it is HDMI 1.3 it probably will support Deep Color output and if it isn't HDMI 1.3 than it probably isn't capable of Deep Color output.

[EricM407]

Originally Posted by srohde

But I think the point is that the 360 has no reason to output TruHD and DTS MA. Those will be decoded in the 360 and output in LPCM.

Will they, on an Elite? I've seen nothing saying so.

[efjay]

Originally Posted by srohde

But I think the point is that the 360 has no reason to output TruHD and DTS MA. Those will be decoded in the 360 and output in LPCM.

Only 2 channel LPCM as confirmed by Amir. So HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 on the Elite makes no difference when it comes to transmitting lossless audio, everything will be downmixed to DD/DTS.

[joffer]

can't believe the elite will only do 2 channel PCM. i wasn't planning on getting one anyway, but that's pathetic.

[James Howlett]

Originally Posted by joffer

can't believe the elite will only do 2 channel PCM. i wasn't planning on getting one anyway, but that's pathetic.

What is 2 channel PCM? I'm gonna use the optical out on the elite for my 5.1 setup.

[spwolf]

Originally Posted by James Howlett

What is 2 channel PCM? I'm gonna use the optical out on the elite for my 5.1 setup.

PCM is uncompressed sound... Elite can do it only with 2 channels via hdmi.
You can always be using DD over optical, but you are missing out on the better sound, which should have been one of the best features of HDMI equipped console/movie player.

I am not really sure why would anyone "upgrade" to Elite then, if you dont get the benefits of PCM.

[srohde]

Originally Posted by efjay

Only 2 channel LPCM as confirmed by Amir. So HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 on the Elite makes no difference when it comes to transmitting lossless audio, everything will be downmixed to DD/DTS.

Yes, indeed. Just read that myself.

Sounds like HDMI on the Elite is really a connectivity solution, not an audio quality solution. They're being honest about it, although I'm sure most xbox customers won't understand the limitations (and likely wouldn't care anyway).

My AVR doesn't have HDMI ports and my 20GB HD consistently has 9GB free. For me, the Elite is totally not necessary - and I'm happy about that actually, otherwise I would get upgrade-itis.

I would end up spending major bucks to upgrade my receiver for HDMI and buy an Elite or a PS3 to take advantage of it. In the end I doubt I would notice the audio/video improvement and I'm certain my wife would not notice the difference.

So xbox 360 just doesn't take full advantage of an HDMI 1.3 compliant receiver for those of you that have one. I'll try to shed a tear for you - after I play some Crackdown

[JamezHill]

Jeez, i just wish they would make up their minds. I'm not upgrading my equipment again anytime soon....

[virtual-human]

Originally Posted by srohde

So xbox 360 just doesn't take full advantage of an HDMI 1.3 compliant receiver for those of you that have one. I'll try to shed a tear for you - after I play some Crackdown

It seems to me that you misunderstand. HDMI 1.3, for the purposes of HD audio, only adds HD codecs. The 360 doesn't need 1.3 to do LPCM. But if the posts in this thread which state that the Elite will only do two channels of LPCM are correct, then that's really dumb and disappointing news.

[Sisko197]

That's pretty lame about LPCM over 2 channels. Sounds like they didn't bother to change anything on the 360's audio subsystem at all. Just slapped a new output chip for video to replace the analog one and called it a day.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised. Glad I bought my XA2.

[MOrlando]

Originally Posted by Sisko197

That's pretty lame about LPCM over 2 channels. Sounds like they didn't bother to change anything on the 360's audio subsystem at all. Just slapped a new output chip for video to replace the analog one and called it a day.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised. Glad I bought my XA2.

After hearing the news, I ordered an XA2 as well.

[domingos1965]

Originally Posted by Jdog35

I'm not super interested in an "MS sucks because they didn't include 1.3...etc." response, but more of a "advanced-basic/intermediate" user response. My buddy is contemplating this "upgrade" to an Elite, and has no idea if this system will be good enough for him, nor what the functional difference between the 1.2 and 1.3 is.

So, with respect to the question, what will be/is the BASIC functional difference between 1.2 and 1.3 HDMI in the specific context of the XBox 360 and HD-DVD drive function?

He only has a 5.1 setup now, and might move to 6.1 in the near future. He's running a 720P projector that will handle1080P over component, but (obviously) won't upconvert standard DVDs over the component (copywrite/security law correct?). When the 1080P projector prices drop, it will likely be hanging off his ceiling very soon.

Thank you in advance. To the soap-boxers out there who want to rag on MS in every thread regarding the Elite's shortcomings, you are entitled to your opinion (and I don't entirely disagree with a lot of it), but could you please start/continue the rant on a different thread so I can somewhat navigate the responses here? Thank you soap-boxers too.

YOUR EYES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE

[Srdjan]

I havent done this before but I'll hope that you can see these photos that I have attached. From what I have read 1.3 will support deepcolour and thats something I'm really looking forward to. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[EricM407]

I assume that those pics are exaggerated in some way to show the difference, because my display never shows artifacts like that. 1.3 deep color is a fairly useless feature at this time, since there's no source to use it. There won't be anything that uses it for a long time, except maybe future games, and I'd rather see developers working on getting their frame rates acceptable than adding another marketing feature they can brag about.

1.2 with the ability to do multichannel LPCM like a year old HD-DVD player would've been nice though.

[teddyc23]

Srdjan, did you make those screenshots? I hope so. If not I am quite happy. My Toshiba 51HX93 CRT already has deep color :-)

I think what people have to remember is that most of the TVs people are buying right now (LCDs anyway) have trouble with producing the full standard color.

Teddy

[Doug Schiller]

Originally Posted by Jdog35

I'm not super interested in an "MS sucks because they didn't include 1.3...etc." response, but more of a "advanced-basic/intermediate" user response. My buddy is contemplating this "upgrade" to an Elite, and has no idea if this system will be good enough for him, nor what the functional difference between the 1.2 and 1.3 is.

So, with respect to the question, what will be/is the BASIC functional difference between 1.2 and 1.3 HDMI in the specific context of the XBox 360 and HD-DVD drive function?

He only has a 5.1 setup now, and might move to 6.1 in the near future. He's running a 720P projector that will handle1080P over component, but (obviously) won't upconvert standard DVDs over the component (copywrite/security law correct?). When the 1080P projector prices drop, it will likely be hanging off his ceiling very soon.

Thank you in advance. To the soap-boxers out there who want to rag on MS in every thread regarding the Elite's shortcomings, you are entitled to your opinion (and I don't entirely disagree with a lot of it), but could you please start/continue the rant on a different thread so I can somewhat navigate the responses here? Thank you soap-boxers too.

I think people are missing the point on HDMI versions.
The real serious problem of the Elite is not that it isn't 1.3, which would probably require a massive rewrite of the Xbox360.
The real problem is, it won't convert the the lossless formats to good old PCM, which gives the people with 1.2 HDMI receivers the same benefit.
It is also a much easier thing to implement.

So, when you want to hold MS' feet to the fire, let's talk about PCM conversion, not pie in the sky HDMI 1.3.

[QuadESL63]

I guess the Elite is not for me... I have a HD-A1 for HD-DVD's and the optical SPDIF output sounds good enough for gaming. I will pass. It will be a shame if the 360 Elite can't decode the new audio codec's to multichannel LPCM over HDMI...

[chap]

I am disappointed in the lack of 1.3 because of the TrueHD support. When they announced HDMI I was pondering on upgrading next year once I can get a decent 1.3 reciever. Now thats irrelevant. I'll keep my current 360 and I'll have to buy a seperate standalone (assuming HD-DVD is still around next year).

[Dahlsim]

Originally Posted by spwolf

PCM is uncompressed sound... Elite can do it only with 2 channels via hdmi.
You can always be using DD over optical, but you are missing out on the better sound, which should have been one of the best features of HDMI equipped console/movie player.

I am not really sure why would anyone "upgrade" to Elite then, if you dont get the benefits of PCM.

Maybe not for audio at all?

For the the new buyer this is best targeted for they get a 100gig larger hdd for starters to go with Media Center and IPTV services in the future and more room for HD movie, video, and TV downloads and content in general.

For upgrading, not a huge benefit but you do get BLACK AV styling, up to 1080p digital video signals if you prefer to use HDMI and mostly likely the same SD-DVD upscaling that now is only available for those with VGA connections.

Audio: DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1 or WMA Pro. Not lossless, but definitely no slouch for 360 audio. 2 Channel LPCM would be good for concerts and music where the audio is often preferred in stereo, not for movies.

Standalones still have a reason to live in hd-dvd land, not so much in blu-ray where the PS3 makes them almost redundant.

[schticker]

Originally Posted by formulanerd

i agree, i dont know all the facts, but IMO most people are complaining for the sake of complaining.

Fanbois will point to anything as a flaw; ironically, they also probably have no understanding as to what they're railing against.