Sony VGX-XL3

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

Ariandax: exactly which message?

Simon: just so, this seems to be not completely fixable but somewhat manageable using different drivers, as you observe. The problem is that the NVidia drivers recognize an HDMI connection and attempt to apply and maintain an HDCP handshake. Note that it is not just the video card, either, as different HDMI monitors in turn behave differently in response. The most reliable driver as regards not dropping HDMI is wrapper 175.19 based on extensive experimentation in this thread.

It is not at all clear that swapping out cards will solve this problem, because you've got a witch's brew of three different competing pieces of hardware. Some people have had success, other not. Some people here have managed to install an ATI low-profile, but remember you will have to inherit a fan then because of the different heat sink hole pattern. But there has been no clear-cut, 100% effective solution when continuing to use an NVidia driver.

The one thing that will absolutely fix the problem is to install 175.19, run HDMI directly into the monitor, disable the monitor's autosource or autodetect feature, turn off the XL3's sleep mode (critically important!), and run audio through Toslink if your audio system supports it. HDMI is where USB was ten years ago, they still don't have all the bugs out. I am recommending everybody avoid HDMI input-only audio systems like the plague for now; while it is true that there are digital converters that will take a Toslink input and turn it into an HDMI output (which of course is another way to go, your audio system thinks its receiving an HDMI signal and your computer thinks it is outputting SPDIF), I have not seen one that was audio-only and the video+audio boxes go for around 200 Euros. Not saying that nobody makes an audio-only unit, but I have not seen one.

Thanks for your prompt and detailed reply.

I do fully understand your statement of facts re. how to get the XL302 to work 100% reliably using HDMI, however for my personal setup two points are not viable (connecting the system directly to the TV instead of via a AV receiver and leaving the system powered on 24/7). I therefore would like to sound out another suggestion..

Are we fairly convinced the problems (occasional no wakeup from sleep and/or no sound) are HDMI related? Assuming so, could I simply take HDMI out of the equation and instead use a component cable and optical toslink (in my setup my XL302 sits next to my Sony STR-DA 5200 ES receiver and thus I have a selection of inputs to pick from)? Will I notice any loss of quality or capability in 'downgrading' from HDMI to component? Assume I can still achieve 1080p via component?

I eagerly await your comments, however for now this seems my most likely route to take.

Simon

[rjeffb]

Simon, in short, yes. But of course, there's a catch: the best you can do through component is 1080i@30Hz. Now, one way of looking at that it's terrible, not the full resolution the XL3 is capable of, fonts look pretty bad (for reasons I have never understood), and this 1,800 Euro machine can't even play a Blu-Ray movie as well as a standalone box costing a tenth as much.

The other way of looking at it is that if this particular forum didn't exist, nobody would have ever known that the XL3 can actually do full 1080p@50 and 60Hz, in which case component gives just as good as the XL3 was designed to do.

I am confused, however: since you do have Toslink capability, why not just run the HDMI straight into the monitor and Toslink into the amp? I presume you have one of those setups where the various components talk to one another via HDMI backchannel? If so, read through the thread, there were some active discussions by some other members who had similar setups and inter-component communications is way outside my expertise (I still use RS232!).

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

Simon, in short, yes. But of course, there's a catch: the best you can do through component is 1080i@30Hz. Now, one way of looking at that it's terrible, not the full resolution the XL3 is capable of, fonts look pretty bad (for reasons I have never understood), and this 1,800 Euro machine can't even play a Blu-Ray movie as well as a standalone box costing a tenth as much.

The other way of looking at it is that if this particular forum didn't exist, nobody would have ever known that the XL3 can actually do full 1080p@50 and 60Hz, in which case component gives just as good as the XL3 was designed to do.

I am confused, however: since you do have Toslink capability, why not just run the HDMI straight into the monitor and Toslink into the amp? I presume you have one of those setups where the various components talk to one another via HDMI backchannel? If so, read through the thread, there were some active discussions by some other members who had similar setups and inter-component communications is way outside my expertise (I still use RS232!).

Thanks for the info – indeed there does seem to be a trade-off then in abandoning HDMI.. one for me at least makes this a non-starter (mainly because I do often use the Vista desktop and therefore would like to keep the current resolution and more importantly clarity).

One thing I think I will try is to route the audio via a toslink (and thus attempting to eliminate the losing sound part of my two intermittent issues), I know this is possible from the XL302’s end (telling it to output audio separately) although I’m not certain what my AV receiver will make of things – I know most of the other inputs are pretty much a ‘mix and match’ affair however HDMI seems to be handled slightly differently and I fear it might be expecting everything through the HDMI cable unfortunately. Guess I need to experiment!

However this does swing me back to the idea of switching the video card. As I understand it the Sony-supplied Nvidia 7600GTL is a stock Nvidia 7600GT with a custom HDMI port added; if this is correct then one way of looking at it is that it shouldn’t be all that much of a surprise that we are having HDMI handshake and driver compatibility issues, no? I’d therefore be suggesting that a latest and more mainstream Nvidia HDMI card might fair better due to a) later manufacture date might suggest a more stable/compatible HDMI communications protocol and b) the more mainstream the card is then hopefully the more testing various new driver releases will have received. As always, just my thoughts!!

Simon

[EDIT]
Ps. Sorry, forgot to answer your question: my setup has my Sony KDL-46X custom installed into my wall, with a single HDMI cable buried into the wall for connection to my AV receiver. There is also a unused VGA cable (old media centre setup, plus my AV receiver obviously doesn’t handle VGA) as well as a redundant component cable in there too just in case I ever needed them, but unfortunately not an extra HDMI cable! For testing purposes I could go and buy a long HDMI cable and run it directly from the XL302 <> TV externally, however in truth this wouldn’t go down well in my household as a permanent solution as this is a custom install costing too much ££££ to have a cable dangling around!!! While I am a big fan of cutting edge technology.. for it to have a place in my house (especially main living room!) while making everyone happy it also has to be equally cosmetically appealing!! (if this wasn't the case I'd probably just have one of my old Dell servers sitting there next to the fireplace doing the business, case permanently off and with a nice big NAS running alongside it!!)

[ariandax]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

>you need to restore your computer since you changed the processor.

I'm not sure ariandax actually means he changed the processor, he's having some trouble with translation. Ariandax, did you change the processor (you unplugged the Intel DualCore chip from the motherboard and installed a different one) or did you change the video card?

If the message is about Digital Rights Management (which would also affect Blu-Ray), then kevekev is right, you'll need to re-install Vista. This happens because once Vista sees a certain amount of changes to the hardware, Vista considers itself to be "unvalidated." Usually changing just the video card is not enough to do this, but changing the processor will automatically cause this to happen.

But if ariandax is just getting a message about digital cable on an XL202, which has no digital cable capabilities in the first place, it would seem all he has to do is suppress the message. That sounds like either a Service or possibly a Startup process. If we knew more about it (exactly when does it happen?) then we might be able to suggest a fix.

tanx for answer,
i have changed my processor (6400 chip to e 6700), but the windows message its not about the "Digital Rights Management" . In fact as u write i have not digital cable capabilities. The message showed is:

translate:application for digital cable tv recorder its stop working.
and



Similar translate: win media center receiver services stop working

i just switch off the system notifier, but nothing to do. The messagee appear , then after closed, desappear until next reboot.
any fix?

[rjeffb]

Simon: ah, so you are boxed in, so to speak, by the physical location of your components. I still have the stock 7600 so I will defer to the many others who have upgraded. I must point out that several people here have installed a particular new card only to have part of the audio chip (wpbguy, is that right?) subsequently fry on them. But apparently there is a low-profile card with integrated HDMI that works. Just wait a bit and eventually one of those members will read this and respond to you, possibly via private message.

Ariandax: okay, this looks like it is part of the ehome service. Try this: upon initial boot, start Task Manager (ctrl+alt+delete) and click "Processes." Highlight every items that starts with "eh" (for example, "ehSched.exe") and click "End Process." Now see if the message reappears.

This is NOT a permanent fix. First, because Vista will reset itself on the next boot (there's a different way to make these changes permanent), and second, because it will probably keep important parts of Media Center from working. But if it does keep the message from appearing, then you can try turning each item off one at a time until you find which one is responsible for the message, and then turn only that one off permanently by running configuration manager (Start, run, msconfig). Good luck.

[ariandax]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

Simon: ah, so you are boxed in, so to speak, by the physical location of your components. I still have the stock 7600 so I will defer to the many others who have upgraded. I must point out that several people here have installed a particular new card only to have part of the audio chip (wpbguy, is that right?) subsequently fry on them. But apparently there is a low-profile card with integrated HDMI that works. Just wait a bit and eventually one of those members will read this and respond to you, possibly via private message.

Ariandax: okay, this looks like it is part of the ehome service. Try this: upon initial boot, start Task Manager (ctrl+alt+delete) and click "Processes." Highlight every items that starts with "eh" (for example, "ehSched.exe") and click "End Process." Now see if the message reappears.

This is NOT a permanent fix. First, because Vista will reset itself on the next boot (there's a different way to make these changes permanent), and second, because it will probably keep important parts of Media Center from working. But if it does keep the message from appearing, then you can try turning each item off one at a time until you find which one is responsible for the message, and then turn only that one off permanently by running configuration manager (Start, run, msconfig). Good luck.

similar solution working for me...just switch off (permanentily) the media center receiver services, then reboot....nothing appear again.
media center work perfectly.
tanx anyway
p.s. my feedback about e6700...i switched it just for better hd playback...
before the cpu usage (with 1080p playback) was about at 65/70%, after cpu switch 40/50%. So i think that the video card - with hardware acceleration capability - its the most important emprovement...at least this one is my opinion.
what do u think guys about that?
tomorrow will arrive my new vga card:8400gs (i hope will be g98 one)

[ariandax]

edit-----

[Blink1ce]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

163.75 is the version that I had the most luck with until recently (when my new Sharp Aquos refused to recover from power off), now I am using 175.19. Because NVidia has changed their web site, do yourselves a favor and download both 163.75 and 175.19 while they're still available and squirrel them away in case you ever need them. Here's a hint: once you install a driver, check out its internal version number (the driver number listed by Vista in device manager properties) and edit the archived file's filename toinclude that, because there's no obvious way to link the "wrapper" number (the number of the executable installation file) with the actual driver number (no, they're not the same) and if you have a library of numerous drivers archived it can be bedeviling to figure out what's what.

And make a backup once everything is working.

And most of all, turn off automatic updating.

Thanks rjeffb.

Have you noticed any other improvements or issues associated with 175.19?

Also, I have turned off Automoatic updates off, but what type of updates should I actually install and which one should I be wary of?

[Blink1ce]

Originally Posted by Blink1ce

Thanks rjeffb.

Have you noticed any other improvements or issues associated with 175.19?

Also, I have turned off Automoatic updates off, but what type of updates should I actually install and which one should I be wary of?

Never mind about 175.19 as it is only valid for XP.

[rjeffb]

Originally Posted by Blink1ce

Never mind about 175.19 as it is only valid for XP.

????? Huh ????

175.19 is the second latest Vista WHQL-certified driver. I'm running it, DenCollins swears by it, and others use it as well. I am not sure what you mean by "XP only." Did you get some sort of error when trying to install it? The latest version, wrapper 178.24, seems to have introduced a new HDMI recovery bug. Possibly connected to HDCP, because I also get an HDCP error trying to watch Blu-Rays in Arcsoft Theater under that driver (but that's another story).

I am paranoid. I have no virus protection, no spyware protection, I use only a hardware firewall, and I sure as hell don't use Outlook Express for e-mail. Instead, I rely upon disk images, I keep all my data on separate drives, and if I get even a whiff that my system might have been compromised I restore my known working image (keeping data off my C: drive means that restores only take a few minutes and my data doesn't get overwritten). Before I install new software, I restore my last image, test the new program out, and if and only if it passes muster, I immediately make a new image and archive the previous one away.

I realize that this makes me the computer equivalent of the bearded ascetic on top of the mountain, but it also means I don't need any damned security updates. So I'm the wrong person to comment, I suppose.

As you can see in the attached list, I have installed only four updates since getting my machine basically working the way I wanted it to a year and a half ago and started doing regular backups, and of those four, the Windows Defender update started downloading without my asking once I installed the 7.2.6001.788 update agent, without which I couldn't update the aforementioned Arcsoft. And the reason I downloaded the 938126 Media Center hotfix and 955519 Media Center cumulative update wasn't because of the "new" features (most of which will NOT work on an XL2/XL3 because they require a new system BIOS) but simply because I bought a media center extender that insisted on it.

What you will want (which previously were outside the scope of M/S automatic updates but now apparently can be included under Hotfix 938126 and the Vista SP1), are the latest ATI tuner update from SONY (I wouldn't experiment with the later versions from ATI, which can be found on AMD's website if you look really hard), and ALL THREE WinDVD updates from Sony, installed in order. You cannot skip the first one, but I can't swear it isn't possible to skip the middle one. By the way, archive all of those somewhere in case some day they're not available and you need them. As I mentioned in a prior post, there's also a separate "AACS key update" that you can't get from Sony, if anybody figures out how to get this please post.

You'll also want the high-definition Sigmatel driver from Sony, that solves a lot of HDMI issues by the way. It hasn't changed in a long time but it is not the one that comes on a stock XL3. Make sure you archive that one as well.

Forum challenge to the regulars: what's your must-have update, especially from the sea of MS updates, and why?

EDIT: I have not noticed any change as a result of the VMC cumulative update. As I said, most changes require a BIOS update. It claims to fix freezing-while-skipping-over-network and I'll test that at some point. No impact at all on my slow Recorded TV thumbnail display, which is now over >30 seconds< (Cripes! Lord, give me placeholders!) with 266 shows.

[rjeffb]

Speaking of media center extenders: as long-timers here will remember, I use an XBox 360 Elite with great success in my gym. Well, it's off at the girlfriend's house as temporary replacement while her son's machine is out for two months to repair the "red circle of doom."

On a lark, I checked out Amazon's prices for VMC extenders. A year ago these things made no sense, as they were more expensive than an Xbox with far less power and capability. Well, the prices have dropped to below $100! I bought a D-Link extender and, once I got the necessary Vista updates installed, it works great.

Cons:

1. Not as snappy as an XBox, you are definitely on an extender. The XBox looks exactly like you're in front of the XL3, whereas the D-Link's spinning circle waiting for a show to load looks more like a GameBoy.
2. Doesn't do Toslink (it does have digital coax, though, and for about $25 more you can get a bigger version with Toslink and a built-in DVD).
3. 1080p video looks more like 1080i (but more noticeable in the VMC menus than while watching videos so who cares).
4. You do have to install some sort of driver on the XL3 that is specific to the extender and D/L the latest Microsoft extender patches. An XBox, on the other hand, works the moment you plug it in. (The M/S Knowledge Base article even says the patch is "optional for XBox owners.")
5. Doesn't play games (unless you install Media Center Solitaire, I suppose ;-)

Pros:

1. REALLY small.
2. Completely silent (i.e. I don't have to blast the volume to be heard over the XBox's twin turbo jet engines).
3. Practically zero power draw, you can leave it on all the time so there's no boot-up and VMC seek (which is time-consuming both for this unit and an XBox).
4. Does both component and HDMI.
5. Under $100. An XBox currently sells for $329; to get HDMI means a $399 Elite. For purposes of Media Center extension, it does 99% of what an XBox does at a quarter of the price. Silently.

I have read that it has trouble with HDTV over wireless but frankly so does an XBox, and I have no issues at all over Ethernet. So for under a hundred bucks, I give it a thumbs up.

[kevekev30]

Originally Posted by Blink1ce

Thanks rjeffb.

Have you noticed any other improvements or issues associated with 175.19?

Also, I have turned off Automoatic updates off, but what type of updates should I actually install and which one should I be wary of?

I use the sony driver 175.40 written for the 7600gtl it is available on the sony uk support site, but it is listed under support for the VGC-RM series.

[nlane01s]

Can anyone confirm if audio & video are capable of being sent over HDMI on this model, with the stock configuration? I've found in the manual where it indicates such, but I've had no luck.

***** UPDATE *****

Well, it looks like it does not support HDMI 1.3 devices, bummer.

http://www.kb.sony.com/selfservice/m...200%2056168549

If anyone has a work around, I'd love to hear about it; as my tv does not have optical in, and I do not have a receiver.

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by kevekev30

I use the sony driver 175.40 written for the 7600gtl it is available on the sony uk support site, but it is listed under support for the VGC-RM series.

Hmm, this is interesting; so it seems Sony have actually had a (reasonably) up-to-date Nvidia driver commissioned especially for their 7600GTL. In principle this should bring together the best of two otherwise competing worlds: later driver from Nvidia should have some bug fixes and incorporate technology developments compared to earlier releases, while at the same time taking into consideration the peculiarities of the 7600GTL variant.

So how does this fair in practise/real world? Can anyone using this driver (I plan to give it a whirl this evening unless anyone strongly advises otherwise) comment on whether this has any impact on the well know issues of HDMI connections: black screen following sleep and/or switching over to another source on the tv/receiver & randomly losing sound via HDMI cable?

Cheers, Simon

[SimonW500]

I've spent a great deal of time researching replacement graphics cards suitable for my XL302. I was *determined* I'd be able to find sometime better / more suitable than those mentioned by others over the past 18 months.. however tbh the results have largely turned up the fact there has been little development in the low-profile & passively cooled & hdmi arena!!

The summary of my findings (early Jan 09) are as follows;

Most powerful low profile cards available are in the Nvidia 9x00 series (9400 currently, 9500 and 9600 on the way), however these are actively cooled and require both a meaty power supply (400W) as well as an additional power connection direct to the board.. making these IMHO a non-starter.

Behind this there is a Nvidia 8600, however this is actively cooled as well.
Last but not least there is a Nvidia 8500, which does tick all the boxes (ie. passively cooled).

I'm currently weighing up between these two cards. The stock Sony card is 7600 based; therefore a 8600 will be generally 'better' - breaking this down this is a x600 therefore it will be as fast as the previous card (3D gaming etc) and with it being a 8x00 series the later generation both improves on the general speed as well as bringing much better multimedia decoding capabilities to the table (ie. relevant to a Media Centre setup). This would therefore be the ideal swap-out - has anyone else tried this card? I wondering a) if it'll actually fit and b) just how noisy/quiet the card actually is? General reports suggest it is very quiet, and this would be fine for me as my overall 'room experience' is never 100% quiet anyway (other devices whirring away), however I'm guessing the hotter the card gets the more it ramps up the van and which is directly mapped to how the card fairs in our particular case. I think it really does need a "suck and see" approach to be taken by someone.. just wondering if anyone else has tried before I embark on such a trial?

The 8500 on the other hand is both an upgrade and downgrade. In media centre terms it is an upgrade - the 8x00 series like I said bringing more media decoding capabilities to the table - however even in the later generation guise the x500 card is much behind the x600 card in terms of 3D speed (ie. about half as fast for 3D gaming etc). I have to keep reminding myself that this is for my lounge Media Centre, that I use 100% as a media player, no gaming or otherwise, and therefore for the functions I use the 8500 would be an upgrade. Plus the purpose of my doing all this is obviously to cure my HDMI issues. However I admit there is a tiny bit of me which doesn't like the fact I'm both putting my hand in my pocket and fiddling around inside my Media Centre with the end result being me having what is generally considered to be an 'inferior' (ie. generally slower) card.. even if in my real world usage this would never be noticed / in fact be the opposite!! Make sense?! Or am I just weird?!

The only two other options as I see it are a) look at mounting the stock 7600GTL heat sink and cooling pipe setup onto the passively cooled 8600GT.. not sure if this is possible - anyone tried? or b) looking at an equivalent ATI option.. I realise with this I'd lose the TOSLINK connection as ATI's use their own onboard sound decoder, but TBH if I had a solid HMDI connection I'd have no reason to use the TOSLINK in my particular setup. Anyone any thoughts/experience using ATI in this box? Personally my research has been 100% focused on the Nvidia route..

As always.. all comments most welcomed! Cheers, Simon

[DenCollins]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

????? Huh ????

175.19 is the second latest Vista WHQL-certified driver. I'm running it, DenCollins swears by it, and others use it as well.

Forum challenge to the regulars: what's your must-have update, especially from the sea of MS updates, and why?

175.19 works for me and I have an Older Panny plasma. HDMI 1.0 I believe.

And...rjeffb...YIKES!! I see you have the Cumulative update for Vista media Center (KB95519) installed. Recently dubbed over @ TGB as the the "Cable Card Killer". It's a miracle that you are not having any problems with recorded content.

(and possibly why your thumbnails are not appearing correctly)

[rjeffb]

No, the thumbnail issue existed previously. Weird thing: as part of my "disappearing tuner" issue (resolved by switching it temporarilly to another USB port), I reinstalled my original 2007 image. Now, the bad thing is that about 150 of my shows disappeared - and I don't mean from within Recorded TV, I mean from the Recorded TV folder! By sheer coincidence, I happened to have all those shows on a 1.5TB USB drive (I was experimenting with "calculating time to copy" times) so I didn't lose anything. But for the moment, I had about 95 hows and thumbnail display wasn't just quick, it was instantaneous. The moment I copied the missing shows back, the display delays returned.

I have archived the image prior to installing the cumulative update in case I need to get back to it. When I installed the D Link extender it gave an error message saying my media center PC needed to be updated and pointing me to Microsoft; however, it turned out that what it really wanted were the drivers on the enclosed CD. Therefore, I don't know that installing 938126 and 955519 were, in fact, actually necessary; so if I see any trouble at all I will restore my pre-rollup image, re-install the extender driver, and see if it works without the M/S updates.

What do you think of this European 175.40 driver that supposedly is specific to Sony GTL cards?

Hey, does anybody here have FIRSTHAND knowledge about this rumour that after installing the TV Pack, Vista will no longer play any shows previously recorded in VMC and/or recorded in .ms-dvr?

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

Hey, does anybody here have FIRSTHAND knowledge about this rumour that after installing the TV Pack, Vista will no longer play any shows previously recorded in VMC and/or recorded in .ms-dvr?

I installed the TV Pack 2008 on my XL302 the other week - and have nothing but good news to report:

- nice additional 'gloss' and 'polish' to the interface
- detected channel <> guide listings mappings seem to work a lot better (ie. for me at least I always had to manually assign a few channels post-full scan, specifically regional ones, now it seems to pick up and map 100%)
- the More Info menu has a lot more useful options in the various scenarios where it can be used while watching media
- thumbnails are now cached!! Maybe I need to get out more but this really pleased me.. so now once you've let the GUI flick through and read your thumbnails once for a given folder (say with 80 or so xvids in there for example) the next time you browse to it they will pretty much instantly be displayed
- support for DVB-S = instant (yup instant) access to the UK teletext and red button services, subtitle etc

And in answer to your specific question: I can play previously recorded .ms-dvr files fine (and with working thumbnails which is something else others have reported issues with).

I basically just cracked on with an install (consisting of the TV pack itself, the MyPlayer or whatever it is called DRM program which is essential for operation, and two hotfixes, followed by running Windows Update which then adds a third rollup fix) with the full expectation I'd need to rebuild the system and start from a fresh install (have been messing around with various other things of late so this wouldn't have been considered a bad thing anyway) however to my surprise following a reboot (needed for the hotfixes to go on) everything worked fine.

The only caveat I'll add is that I have never used the cablecard element of my system (no applicable service for me in the UK). I've got the correct drivers installed and no errors - both before and after the TV Pack 2008 went on - but like I say have never made use of it.. not sure if this could be a factor in other peoples less positive experiences..?

[rjeffb]

Thanks Simon. If 1. indeed people had to do a complete re-install before upgrading to the TV pack, 2. they have DRM-coded video (HDCP CableCARD, specifically), and 3. they did NOT KNOW that beforehand they needed to back up, and later restore, their C:/Program Data folder as described in this thread, then they would automatically lose all their prior shows.

That's a consequence not of the TV Pack, but of restoring Vista to a point prior to having the pertinent DRM licenses for the shows. Some posts have stated that TV-P will not play .MS-DVR at all, but you have confirmed that this is inaccurate; I suspect that the truth is that they couldn't play their previously recorded DRM-licensed .MS-DVRs, which is not the same thing (but certainly would appear to be if you didn't have non-DRM shows to test). For example, one source of this information is the official review of the TV Pack by engadget <http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/08/06/hands-on-with-the-vista-media-center-tv-pack/>, which stated

First we had to re-install Vista on our Dell XPS 420 and all the updates and drivers that go along with it -- not to mention lose access to all of our old CableCARD tuner recordings and recordings settings.

Which would seem to indicate that all of your old shows are gone. But in PC Magazine's review <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2331433,00.asp>, they said

And speaking of minor irritants, many people report that the thumbnails on previously recorded CableCARD shows have vanished.

Well, how can the thumbnail "disappear" if the entire show is gone? So PCMag is apparently still able to play previously recorded shows.

Now, there is still the possibility that the act of restoring a prior Program Data folder could interfere with or prevent a post-TV Pack Media Center from working; so to be clear, are you saying you were able to install TV Pack over your existing installation without having to re-install Vista from scratch?

I found a site and downloaded all the above, I'll post the link once I confirm that it's for real (my first attempt downloaded nothing other than a Fakeavalert.trojan virus).

[ariandax]

Originally Posted by SimonW500

I've spent a great deal of time researching replacement graphics cards suitable for my XL302. I was *determined* I'd be able to find sometime better / more suitable than those mentioned by others over the past 18 months.. however tbh the results have largely turned up the fact there has been little development in the low-profile & passively cooled & hdmi arena!!

The summary of my findings (early Jan 09) are as follows;

Most powerful low profile cards available are in the Nvidia 9x00 series (9400 currently, 9500 and 9600 on the way), however these are actively cooled and require both a meaty power supply (400W) as well as an additional power connection direct to the board.. making these IMHO a non-starter.

Behind this there is a Nvidia 8600, however this is actively cooled as well.
Last but not least there is a Nvidia 8500, which does tick all the boxes (ie. passively cooled).

I'm currently weighing up between these two cards. The stock Sony card is 7600 based; therefore a 8600 will be generally 'better' - breaking this down this is a x600 therefore it will be as fast as the previous card (3D gaming etc) and with it being a 8x00 series the later generation both improves on the general speed as well as bringing much better multimedia decoding capabilities to the table (ie. relevant to a Media Centre setup). This would therefore be the ideal swap-out - has anyone else tried this card? I wondering a) if it'll actually fit and b) just how noisy/quiet the card actually is? General reports suggest it is very quiet, and this would be fine for me as my overall 'room experience' is never 100% quiet anyway (other devices whirring away), however I'm guessing the hotter the card gets the more it ramps up the van and which is directly mapped to how the card fairs in our particular case. I think it really does need a "suck and see" approach to be taken by someone.. just wondering if anyone else has tried before I embark on such a trial?

The 8500 on the other hand is both an upgrade and downgrade. In media centre terms it is an upgrade - the 8x00 series like I said bringing more media decoding capabilities to the table - however even in the later generation guise the x500 card is much behind the x600 card in terms of 3D speed (ie. about half as fast for 3D gaming etc). I have to keep reminding myself that this is for my lounge Media Centre, that I use 100% as a media player, no gaming or otherwise, and therefore for the functions I use the 8500 would be an upgrade. Plus the purpose of my doing all this is obviously to cure my HDMI issues. However I admit there is a tiny bit of me which doesn't like the fact I'm both putting my hand in my pocket and fiddling around inside my Media Centre with the end result being me having what is generally considered to be an 'inferior' (ie. generally slower) card.. even if in my real world usage this would never be noticed / in fact be the opposite!! Make sense?! Or am I just weird?!

The only two other options as I see it are a) look at mounting the stock 7600GTL heat sink and cooling pipe setup onto the passively cooled 8600GT.. not sure if this is possible - anyone tried? or b) looking at an equivalent ATI option.. I realise with this I'd lose the TOSLINK connection as ATI's use their own onboard sound decoder, but TBH if I had a solid HMDI connection I'd have no reason to use the TOSLINK in my particular setup. Anyone any thoughts/experience using ATI in this box? Personally my research has been 100% focused on the Nvidia route..

As always.. all comments most welcomed! Cheers, Simon

all correct---bought nvidia 8500 but was fault...tomorrow will arrive my new nvidia 8400gs (i hope with g98 engine). As u write, this card its the better choice for media center , with best hd decoder etc...after tested i'll let u know my opinion
dario

[rjeffb]

OK, took the leap to TV Pack, here's the whole story.

EDIT: see also post 1319 for a serious bug report. EDIT: see post 1484 about how M/S appears to have fixed everything.

1. You can get the main files from the following site. Unless you have upgraded to 64-bit Vista, you'll want the "x86" files. In some cases, both 32- and 64-bit files are contained inside a single .RAR download, you'll extract just the one you need later. BTW you will need a copy of WinRAR to do this.

<http://digiex.net/guides-tutorials/699-windows-media-center-tv-pack-2008-download-installation-guide.html>

2. MAKE A BACKUP. If you zap your system you'll be sorry! Also, based on previous experience I recommend you go into the Recorded TV folder and set all shows' properties to read-only. Once everything is complete, go back and remove that flag. EDIT: if you wind up restoring your original system, set them back to read-only, since where I have had shows disappear (over 100 of them) was when restoring an image, VMC evidently didn't like the fact that there were shows it didn't know about and decided to erase them out of spite.

If you don't already have a backup of the hidden NTFS partition, make sure you include that one because there's a good chance it's about to be modified (in which case your original configuration will be unrecoverable).

3. You will have to install Vista Service Pack 1 from Microsoft; if SP1 is not installed, the TV Pack will refuse to start. This is about a half-gig download and will take about an hour to install.

Even if the TV Pack ultimately doesn't work out I will probably keep SP1 (I made several interim backups so I can easily get back to the post-SP1, pre-TV Pack setup) because my Recorded TV thumbnail display delay went from a ridiculous 30 seconds for 280 shows to a bearable 17 seconds.

4. Make another backup, not only of your C: drive, but of the NTFS partition as well, because I suspect that SP1 does stuff to that partition.

5. Install the TV Pack.

6. Install PlayReadyPC (this is the new DRM scheme that supposedly lets you record non-premium cable without DRM licensing - but stay tuned on that).

7. Install the two KB updates - one is definitely needed (video playback), the other I'm not sure about (sound corruption).

8. After many reboots, go into Windows Update and install two more KBs: one is a general TV pack cumulative update, and the other is "Windows Search 4.0," which you'll need to do Title/Keyword search in TV Pack (expect an initial delay in Title/Keyword search availability as this new function grinds through indexing for the first time). I'll attach a list of all updates later. EDIT: attached.

9. Go back through VMC setup and reinstall your CableCARD, reset all your preferences (oddly, it remembers your Recorded TV and Music folder preferences), and set your shows and movies to record (yeah, you'll lose all that, big deal). The good news here is that TV Pack setup is MUCH faster than regular VMC, and one of the neat features is that you can kill a channel you don't want from directly within Guide by hitting Info...no more identifying a network that has both an HD and an SD channel in Guide, going through all the menu trees to get to TV>Guide>Options>Edit channels, and deleting the SD channel.

One other installation note: my NVidia driver sometimes doesn't display on reboot, and the system will reboot a LOT. That led to some nail-biting as the hard drive churned away and I didn't know what was happening. Happily, the reboots will happen without your intervention. The whole process, including installing the Service Pack, took about three hours, and all my shows are present and viewable.

Immediately apparent are a lot of little tweaks: Guide listings indicate which shows are in HD...much wider use of the "greyed out background video" feature...you can set up custom Guide channel listings...shows record in new ".wtv" format and supposedly, not all channels are DRM so in theory you can play at least some of them back on another PC (at least one that supports .wtv); but since my one recording thus far ("Homicide" on TBS-HD) was still flagged as copy-protected, I'm not holding my breath on that one. A Green Button now sits permanently in the System Tray, but exactly what it does that wasn't already accomplished by the old VMC icon that appeared only when downloading Guide listings, I haven't figured out yet.

Things are much, much faster. One good news/bad news is that my thumbnails once again display instantaneously. However, it's not clear if that's because they are actually faster, or if it's because 80% of my thumbnails for previously recorded shows are now blank. I tried deleting the TVThumbs.db file to force Vista to rebuild but Vista wouldn't let me delete it, saying it is in use by another program. EDIT: I deleted TVThumbs.db from within Safe Mode, and subsequently running VMC rebuilt the index...with 100% blank thumbnails for previously recorded shows!

Supposedly lots of new advantages for owners of multiple tuner cards but since my external tuner was dead on arrival, I wouldn't know.

So, should you do it? Not yet. Go ahead and download the files (because you never know if Microsoft will subsequently decide to declare war and order all links removed), but wait 30 days from now when I report if my "unsupported" installation fails validation. I'll post a Part 2 shortly. EDIT: this experiment was terminated less than two days later; see post 1319 and 1484.

[NizZ8]

OK so i have given the Win7 Beta 1 (From MSDN) install a shot yesterday with my VGX-XL3 (stock)... I have to say things went surprisingly well for a Beta OS Install.

1) Clean Install of Win7
2) Open device manager and did a driver update on the video card
--now To Get the ATI DCT Working in Media Center
3) Install KB Update From MSDN - Update for Windows 7 Beta (KB961367) (x86)
4) Open Media Center and go through the setup
-PlayReady Appears to be installing now through the 7MC Setup
5) Go though Tuner Setup / enter your Digital Cable Key
... and voila things are up and running

Notes:
-I have one device in the device manager that shows up as an unknown device (haven't looked into yet.
-On Reboot i have to disable/enable the ATI TV Tuner because MCE doesn't seem to recognize it at first (doesn't do this for me in Vista).. Other than that the ATI DCT Works
-I am having Network related issues issues with my HDHomeRun Tuner: (http://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6226)
-I haven't tested out BD yet (the WinBD install from sony or any 3rd party).

Generally things were working pretty well, i a couple of my extenders, one x360 and a DMA2100 Extender and both worked great (and native Xvid/Divx support on the 360 now through MCE!). Had some issues with some of the main apps i use on my extenders (video browser / vmcNetflix) but they worked fine on the local 7MC Machine..

[rjeffb]

Jeesh NizZ8, had to go steal Simon's and my thunder, eh? :-)

Besides the all-important BRD playback, can you confirm that you can play H.263 over network? I mean Media Center on the XL3 playing from a networked source, not an extender playing something stored locally on the XL3. Besides my wanting to play back AVCHD video from my Canon HandyCam, this could be of great interest to our European members, who are currently shut out of much HD content since H.263 (a transmission standard over there) was unceremoniously yanked from the TV Pack upgrade.

One really encouraging thing is that you had to enter your DCT key right off the bat. Why is that "encouraging"? Because since it was evidently accepted, that means you probably won't get bitten by the 30-day validation bug. Since upgrading to TV Pack required resetting the CableCARD but not the DCT, I am not so confident about my installation.

[DenCollins]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

OK, took the leap to TV Pack, here's the whole story.

That's Exciting news! Makes want to do it! But...my XL3 is running so smoothly that I'd hate to screw it up. Yeah, I could make an image of it in present state but since I really haven't seen this "TV Pack" in action I just can't find any justification to install it. I guess for now I'll leave the experimentation to the "Brave Ones".

[rjeffb]

Originally Posted by nlane01s

Can anyone confirm if audio & video are capable of being sent over HDMI on this model, with the stock configuration? I've found in the manual where it indicates such, but I've had no luck.

***** UPDATE *****

Well, it looks like it does not support HDMI 1.3 devices, bummer.

http://www.kb.sony.com/selfservice/m...200%2056168549

If anyone has a work around, I'd love to hear about it; as my tv does not have optical in, and I do not have a receiver.

Last time I researched this - which was over a year ago, as I simply gave up - HDMI sound was dependent upon the encoding used by the particular source. About 1/3 of my cable channels produced sound through HDMI, but all produced sound through Toslink, so in the end that's how I went. Note that I DID get sound on many channels, so this is a problem above and beyond incompatibility of the XL3 with different flavors of HDMI, because then I would not have received any audio through HDMI on any channel.

Vista sound setup and WinDVD have completely baffling and - even more baffling - in some cases contradictory sound settings (many of which not only contradict one another, but are greyed out and evidently not settable) when it comes to HDMI, two-channel, Toslink, etc. What it came down to was that many of these settings are like the street-crossing pushbuttons in New York City: they don't actually do anything.

The safest bet with an XL3 is to ignore HDMI as an audio source. Amplifiers and even surround sound systems that accept Toslink can be had for under $100. But surely your TV accepts plain old RCA inputs? The other option is a converter box that accepts both an HDMI video input and a Toslink audio input and sends them both out to the monitor via HDMI. But those boxes sell for far more than a Toslink amplifier. (Note that such a box is more complicated than it sounds, because it also has to maintain a continuous HDCP handshake or else Blu-Rays won't play etc.)

[NizZ8]

Originally Posted by rjeffb

Jeesh NizZ8, had to go steal Simon's and my thunder, eh? :-)

Besides the all-important BRD playback, can you confirm that you can play H.263 over network? I mean Media Center on the XL3 playing from a networked source, not an extender playing something stored locally on the XL3. Besides my wanting to play back AVCHD video from my Canon HandyCam, this could be of great interest to our European members, who are currently shut out of much HD content since H.263 (a transmission standard over there) was unceremoniously yanked from the TV Pack upgrade.

One really encouraging thing is that you had to enter your DCT key right off the bat. Why is that "encouraging"? Because since it was evidently accepted, that means you probably won't get bitten by the 30-day validation bug. Since upgrading to TV Pack required resetting the CableCARD but not the DCT, I am not so confident about my installation.

Oh not trying to steal any thunder at all! ... I was actually REALLY surprised that i didn't end up in Driver Nightmare from the Win7 Install... It found almost all the drivers on it own during the installation.

I'll check out the H.263 stuff / BD playback here in a bit and let you guys know how it goes.

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by NizZ8

Oh not trying to steal any thunder at all! ... I was actually REALLY surprised that i didn't end up in Driver Nightmare from the Win7 Install... It found almost all the drivers on it own during the installation.

I'll check out the H.263 stuff / BD playback here in a bit and let you guys know how it goes.

LOL - good effort with this one!

I'm messing around with Win7 Beta on a spare (read old!) Sony laptop (again relatively surprised with drivers etc) but not brave enough to potentially upset my viewing on the lounge VMC!! Not until a decent looking RC anyways.. having said that the whole native xvid viewing via 360 extenders has certainly got my interest, hmm!!

Sounds promising - indeed keep us posted..

[SimonW500]

Originally Posted by ariandax

all correct---bought nvidia 8500 but was fault...tomorrow will arrive my new nvidia 8400gs (i hope with g98 engine). As u write, this card its the better choice for media center , with best hd decoder etc...after tested i'll let u know my opinion
dario

Hi,

Interested to hear why you've gone for a 8400GS - simply because it was easier to get hold of one, or do you have some info you could kindly share re. this specific model better for a VMC-type application/usage than the 8500GT?

Cheers, Simon

[rjeffb]

Already hit a really serious bug in TV Pack or possibly SP1 (EDIT: nope, TV Pack is to blame, see below). When watching Live TV, pressing record makes the hard drive thrash a bit, and then a "No TV Signal error." However, there IS a TV signal, the show is still displaying half the time (can you imagine how frustrating it is to see a "no TV signal" message pop up OVER an ongoing video?). The rest of the time the video freezes, but simply changing the channel away and back again gets the show back on-screen. Before upgrading, recording started almost immediately; now, VMC thinks about it for perhaps six seconds, and finally gives up and pops up the message.

This happens on HD and SD channels. I've tried pointing Recorded TV to different drives, enabling write-ahead, changing TV buffer times, and downloaded some more hotfixes, to no avail.

At first glance, this is a nit with a simple workaround: instead of hitting record from Live TV, simply back out to the Guide and hit record; you can then either go back to Live TV, or flip over to Recorded TV and watch it from there. The bug only occurs when you try to start recording a stream that is already being buffered, so as long as it is not being buffered at the moment you start recording, it works fine.

Annoying but minor, right? Wrong. Because as I just discovered, this bug has a sinister side effect: if you set two consecutive shows on the same channel to record, the second one won't record due to an erroneous missing signal error (because, once again, it is trying to record a channel that is already being buffered). If you try to record three consecutive shows on the same channel, the one in the middle will fail to record. MAJOR issue for me, as I am now left explaining to my girlfreind why half her NCIS marathon didn't record. (I used the word "sinister": if this was random, rather than every other show, at least there would be a chance it would record BOTH parts of a two-part episode...)

EDIT: Pending somebody's suggestion on how to fix this, I have restored back to SP1 and that behavior is gone - pressing record while watching a show causes the show to start recording immediately. It is the TV Pack that causes recording to fail under these circumstances. Simon, can you verify on your TV Pack, and NizZ8, can you check to see if this happens in Win7?

EDIT: see post 1484, appears that M/S eventually fixed this.

[ariandax]

Originally Posted by SimonW500

Hi,

Interested to hear why you've gone for a 8400GS - simply because it was easier to get hold of one, or do you have some info you could kindly share re. this specific model better for a VMC-type application/usage than the 8500GT?

Cheers, Simon

The "old" 8400 gs come with old g86 engine that decode (hd movie) not more that 50/60%. So the other work is done by the cpu. Same situation (or similar) for 8500 gt (i dont remember exactly the quote).
With new 8400 gs(g98 engine), the hd/br movies are encode at 100%, so the cpu is totally free about the charge. Same situation u'll find with 9200/9300 model, but at the moment is not ready for mediacenter pc. No fanless, no low profile etc
the problem is to find 8400gs: fanless, hdmi, and low profile....with g98 engine!
i hope i have found one of this
i'll let u know about that when i got it (next week)
P.S. obvsiously im talking about dxva hardware acceleration. In fact u'll need windvd br/power dvd or other player with this futures