DVD player with Closed Caption via HDMI - is there such a thing ?

[avs2099]

Can someone recommend a DVD player capable of decoding Closed Caption on its own and overlaying it on top of video when outputting via HDMI - at least in 1080i (1080p preferred) ?

[avs2099]

Bueller, Bueller .....

[kousikb]

all DVD-player does it.. DO you know any dvd player which doesn't.. if you press CC on the remote it will show up..

[wmcclain]

Originally Posted by kousikb

all DVD-player does it.. DO you know any dvd player which doesn't.. if you press CC on the remote it will show up..

You must be using DVD remotes from an alternate universe.

CC over HDMI is rare. Subtitles are common...

-Bill

[johnbs]

I managed CC over DVI (not HDMI) by using the software DVD player on my Powerbook as that was the only way I could display CC in Hong Kong (i.e. we use PAL). I assume that when HDMI becomes available on laptops, I can use that solution.

John

[h0mi]

I connected a DVR to my TV via HDMI and the CC options were disabled on the TV which makes me think wmcclain is right.

[dr0s]

Originally Posted by johnbs

I managed CC over DVI (not HDMI) by using the software DVD player on my Powerbook as that was the only way I could display CC in Hong Kong (i.e. we use PAL). I assume that when HDMI becomes available on laptops, I can use that solution.John

This is different; your computer is integrating the captions into the actual image before sending it to what it believes is the computer display. A stand-alone DVD player has to treat a TV as a TV, and in non-upscaled modes typically passes the CC signal to the TV's CC decoding hardware over extra bandwidth in the signal. There is apparently no extra bandwidth over HDMI, at least for upscaled images. - DR

[avs2099]

It seems the situation regarding closed caption and hdmi is probably best described as a clusterf**k. If you had a setup with a composite/S-Video connection and relied on closed caption to be available, you are in a for a big surprise when switching to HDTV.

Here is a link from TEITAC:

http://teitac.org/mailarchives/mail_...d=2834&listid=

"So clearly the authors of the HDMI spec thought the DVD players would decode
captions - they even mistakenly believed that they were required to do so.
Many of the members of the HDMI consortium are also members of CEA ...

So, here we have a situation where the right hand didn't know what the left
hand was doing - and deaf consumers and others who rely on closed captioning
are faced with acceptance of .... a lower quality image (composite video
and last generation DVDs) ..."

[broketoo]

I am also looking for a DVD player with CC support (not subtitles) using either component or hdmi connections. SVideo sucks =(

Is there a TV that can display CC over component connection? I have the 65731 right now and it's not displaying it, but am exchanging it for Toshiba 65HM167 (due to other reasons)

[avs2099]

This issue has been discussed in the past on one of the Display Devices forums
Here is a link to the older thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=699933

[wmcclain]

Originally Posted by avs2099

Can someone recommend a DVD player capable of decoding Closed Caption on its own and overlaying it on top of video when outputting via HDMI - at least in 1080i (1080p preferred) ?

I see that some of the players here are shown as having CC support: http://www.world-import.com/dvd-hdmi.htm. I know nothing about them otherwise, and would suggest researching to see if CC really is supported for HDMI.

-Bill

[avs2099]

These guys are just resellers. Some of the models they sell support CC over composite and also have HDMI connectivity. None of them show CC over HDMI though.

Originally Posted by wmcclain

I see that some of the players here are shown as having CC support: http://www.world-import.com/dvd-hdmi.htm. I know nothing about them otherwise, and would suggest researching to see if CC really is supported for HDMI.

-Bill

[avs2099]

I contacted CEA - http://www.ce.org/ and they send me back a document - CEA_Closed_Caption_FAQs_April_2007.pdf where they explain their stance on the subject. The doc is on their web site or you can use Google's cache to read a plaint text version of it - http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...April_2007.pdf
CEA apparently thinks the millions of CEA-608 captioned DVDs people already have in their hands will be dumped in the ocean in the near future and everybody will switch to a new medium ( yet to be determined ) and repurchase the same content ( providing it is available ) over again.

[wmcclain]

Originally Posted by avs2099

I contacted CEA - http://www.ce.org/ and they send me back a document - CEA_Closed_Caption_FAQs_April_2007.pdf where they explain their stance on the subject. The doc is on their web site or you can use Google's cache to read a plaint text version of it - http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

CEA apparently thinks the millions of CEA-608 captioned DVDs people already have in their hands will be dumped in the ocean in the near future and everybody will switch to a new medium ( yet to be determined ) and repurchase the same content ( providing it is available ) over again.

Well, that's a terrible waste. The CC info is already in the video signal on current discs; you'd think there would be an automated way of extracting this and converting it to an additional subtitle track at disc authoring time. All current players can handle subtitles. It seems like a small matter of programming to me, but perhaps there is more to it than I suppose.

-Bill

[avs2099]

currently "harassing" SONY over at

http://boardsus.playstation.com/play...ead.id=1929162

hoping that at least PS3 will be able to show captions.

[Sam Ontario]

So which upconverting DVD player or which HDDVD player or which BRDVD player can display cc via HDMI? Thanks.

Edit: Sorry link from #11 maybe a good source! I have no expeience though with any from the site.

[avs2099]

As reported in the other thread Panasonic EZ47V ( and probably EZ27 ) has the capability of decoding captions when using HDMI. I did not test EZ27 but they both hit the market in May of 2007 so it is safe to assume they share the capability.

I also found two older Toshiba models - SD-3950 and SD-3960 which are able to decode captions and send them over component in 480p mode.

This means that, despite what the DVD player manufacturers want you to believe, closed captions decoding is not quite out of realm of possibility for DVD players.

[dmulvany]

Thought I'd point out that new DVD *recorders* that have digital (ATSC) tuners have a good chance of decoding captions from a DVD when they play them. For the most part, stand-alone devices with digital tuners are supposed to decode captions. Anytime a device decodes captions and the captioning is turned on within that device, the captions should show up on any display no matter whether HDMI is used. You could even connect the device to a monitor that isn't even a TV (as long as there's a compatible connection) and still see the captioning since it's already been decoded.

Caveat: it's possible that some digital tuners would only decode the CEA-708 caption data, not the line 21 (CEA-608) analog caption data. Closed captioned DVDs have analog, NTSC caption data on them. It would be important to doublecheck whether the recorder would be able to decode the captions from the DVD, even though this would seem like an obvious requirement if there's a built-in caption decoder.

Dana

[avs2099]

According to the Oppo Early Adopters forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287
Oppo is about to release a new blu ray player - BDP-83
The current firmware does not allow for CC decoding from DVDs,
but I am sure if enough people contacted Oppo with their requests it might change.
It is very easy to contact them @ http://www.oppodigital.com/support.htm and they reply almost instantly.

[wmcclain]

Originally Posted by avs2099

According to the Oppo Early Adopters forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287
Oppo is about to release a new blu ray player - BDP-83
The current firmware does not allow for CC decoding from DVDs,
but I am sure if enough people contacted Oppo with their requests it might change.
It is very easy to contact them @ http://www.oppodigital.com/support.htm and they reply almost instantly.

I actually haven't tested it but I presume, like other players, it will give CC over 480i component.

Supporting CC over HDMI: I haven't heard anything about that.

-Bill

[avs2099]

Originally Posted by wmcclain

I actually haven't tested it but I presume, like other players, it will give CC over 480i component.

I have Oppo 981HD and it does not do CC at all, even in 480i over composite. I think BDP-83 is going to be the same way.

Supporting CC over HDMI: I haven't heard anything about that.

No one requested this, that's why. I exchanged emails with them last week, but this is my lonely voice. If more people made similar requests this could make a difference. Their answer at this point is they do not see a market for this feature. I'd love to have a single player for both DVD/Blu Ray with CC over HDMI.

[DvdClon]

My Oppo 983H allows for CC over component at 480i. I haven't tried composite, though.
I connect it to my Panasonic plasma through both HDMI at 720p and component at 480i. If a disc doesn't have subtitles, I can change inputs on the set and see if CC is present.

I think my 970HD did the same, so I don't know why your 981 can't. The BD-83 I can't speak for.

BTW, I asked Oppo about closed-captioning decoding in the player back when I got my 970, so it's not news to them that some of us are interested.

[Victor Bergman]

I went through all the various set up variations when I upgraded my system to hdmi, trying to see how I could get closed captions. From what I learned, CC is an analog signal only, and is not picked up the the digital hdmi connections. Both component and composite lines will transmit CC.

On one trial, I hooked up my DVD player to the TV by both HDMI and component, hoping that by switching my TV input selection, I could get CC when I wanted to by selecting component. Unfortunately, both my TV and my receiver (I also tried this going through receiver) are too smart for me, and are giving HDMI priority if both HDMI and component are connected.

So, I have had to give up on CC from my DVDs, since I don't want to be disconnecting and reconnecting my cables all the time. For my VCR, I have the composite video cable going directly to the TV, and my sound only going through my receiver.

I guess they are hoping that more companies provide SDH subtitling (subtitled for the deaf and hard of hearing) on their BDs and DVDs, so that it can be transmitted over HDMI.

[eeddings]

Originally Posted by Victor Bergman

I went through all the various set up variations when I upgraded my system to hdmi, trying to see how I could get closed captions. From what I learned, CC is an analog signal only, and is not picked up the the digital hdmi connections. Both component and composite lines will transmit CC.

On one trial, I hooked up my DVD player to the TV by both HDMI and component, hoping that by switching my TV input selection, I could get CC when I wanted to by selecting component. Unfortunately, both my TV and my receiver (I also tried this going through receiver) are too smart for me, and are giving HDMI priority if both HDMI and component are connected.

So, I have had to give up on CC from my DVDs, since I don't want to be disconnecting and reconnecting my cables all the time. For my VCR, I have the composite video cable going directly to the TV, and my sound only going through my receiver.

I guess they are hoping that more companies provide SDH subtitling (subtitled for the deaf and hard of hearing) on their BDs and DVDs, so that it can be transmitted over HDMI.

What I did was keep my old panasonic DVD player when I bought a Blu-Ray player. My HDTV only supports CC on the S-Video input, so I had to hook up the old DVD player to it for those pesky DVDs that don't have subtitles.

Sure, the picture is crappy compared to HDMI. But, I only see one in 50 or so discs that doesn't have subtitles. I know CC is better. But, subtitles are better than nothing. We can't even watch a movie if it doesnt have subtitles.

I haven't seen a Blu-Ray disc that doesn't have subtitles. I'm sure they may be out there, but I haven't seen any.

I just can't bring myself to watch Band of Brothers on S-Video though (the DVD doesn't have subtitles). So, I'm going to have to buy the Blu-Ray for English subtitles.

[avs2099]

Originally Posted by eeddings

What I did was keep my old panasonic DVD player when I bought a Blu-Ray player. My HDTV only supports CC on the S-Video input, so I had to hook up the old DVD player to it for those pesky DVDs that don't have subtitles.

Sure, the picture is crappy compared to HDMI. But, I only see one in 50 or so discs that doesn't have subtitles. I know CC is better. But, subtitles are better than nothing. We can't even watch a movie if it doesnt have subtitles.

...or you could spend $199 and buy DMR-EZ28K from Amazon.
It decodes CC over HDMI in 1080p mode just fine

[SoNic67]

Originally Posted by avs2099

...or you could spend $199 and buy DMR-EZ28K from Amazon.
It decodes CC over HDMI in 1080p mode just fine

Normally, the player doesn't have to decode CC. The TV is the one that should decode the CC signal. DVD player should just pass it along somehow via HDMI, in a way that is "understanded" by the new generation of TV sets. When I press CC button on my TV when I am on HDMI or Component mode it says "function not available" (but it does work on 480i connections).
If that player shows the CC (not the english subtitles) it might decode the CC and incrustrate/overlay those decoded captions in the video signal somehow - better than nothing, but is a sad state of the industry.

[avs2099]

Originally Posted by SoNic67

Normally, the player doesn't have to decode CC. The TV is the one that should decode the CC signal. DVD player should just pass it along somehow via HDMI, in a way that is "understanded" by the new generation of TV sets. When I press CC button on my TV when I am on HDMI or Component mode it says "function not available" (but it does work on 480i connections).
If that player shows the CC (not the english subtitles) it might decode the CC and incrustrate/overlay those decoded captions in the video signal somehow - better than nothing, but is a sad state of the industry.

You must be new here ;-) Please read post #8 in this thread, it was posted 2 1/2 years ago in May, 2007

[SoNic67]

I have read it. It is a bunch of bull... DVD players where never required legally to decode CC.
Basically the analog component and HDMI equipments sold in US are breaking the existing US laws regarding transmission of CC code to the TV's invoking some "international standardization" for that. Since when the laws of US can be ignored based on other countries?
FCC should mandate the incorporation of those in the standard for the products sold in US, like they mandate the NTSC standard or tunner frequencies or like Holywood does with the zonning of the DVD/BR discs.
Also they are acting like they care about extra finnancial burden on the consumers - did they care when the law was passed in the first place? When all the analog TV's where required to decode CC? Don't think so...

[avs2099]

Originally Posted by SoNic67

Basically the analog component and HDMI equipments sold in US are breaking the existing US laws regarding transmission of CC code to the TV's invoking some "international standardization" for that. Since when the laws of US can be ignored based on other countries?

Which law exactly ? Can you provide a reference to an existing law being violated ?

FCC should mandate the incorporation of those in the standard for the products sold in US, like they mandate the NTSC standard or tunner frequencies or like Holywood does with the zonning of the DVD/BR discs.
Also they are acting like they care about extra finnancial burden on the consumers - did they care when the law was passed in the first place? When all the analog TV's where required to decode CC? Don't think so...

I agree that HDMI is breaking the spirit of the law, but since they are not breaking the letter of the law, there is nothing that can legally be done to enforce it. I asked FCC directly about this issue back in 2007. You can find their response in yet another thread about captioning and HDMI:The FCC does not regulate captioning of home videos, DVDs, or video games.

[SoNic67]

Section 53 of the July 31, 2000 FCC Report and Order on DTV captioning
stated the following:

"53. Other Devices. Although we did not propose closed caption
decoder requirements for television interface devices whose primary function
is other than delivering television programming, such as VCRs, DVD players,
or personal video recorders, we know that these devices are used by
consumers in connection with their television sets to view closed caption
programming. In order for viewers to receive closed captions when using
these devices, it is not necessary for these devices to have decoding
capability. Rather, all that is required is for the device to pass through
the closed caption information to the decoder in the television set. We
expect that such devices, and any other similar new devices, will pass
through closed captions unaltered and intact to the decoder in the attached
digital television. Manufacturers of such devices should ensure that this
continues to be the case as the transition to digital television
progresses."

From what I can tell, the devices with HDMI and component connections do not pass the CC signals as required. Also, the TV sets sold today are not capable to capture the CC signals via component HDMI.
Am I wrong?