July 1st - We can finally OWN our own cable boxes?!?!

[DaveGee]

I though for sure I'd find some preexisting discussion on this already and was kinda shocked when I didn't... Perhaps I just missed it and if so, sorry in advance for the duplicate thread...

Anyway...

July 1st is some kind of "D-Day" for the cable operators where they MUST allow us to buy our own cable boxes and get the same level of service as we would have gotten if we were renting a box from them... (thats what I've taken away from the stories I've read anyway - don't take what I said a gospel...).

Here is a snippit:

"Come July 1, the gloves come off. After two years of deadline extensions, that's when the Federal Communications Commission will require cable companies to make hardware changes in all new set-top boxes that it hopes will lead to a competitive market. "

From: http://www.physorg.com/news100533620.html

In short it would seem that I'd be able to buy a SA8300 HDC (where the HD stands for HD and the C stands for CableCard)

In my searches I've found reports from CES where SA and Motorola have been interviewed about prepping for the release of these updated boxes and even talked about NEW boxes that would be available on or around the July 1st deadline... Unfortunately I can't seem to find anyone who is actually getting ready to sell them...

Anyone got any info on this stuff? I'm renting 2 8300HDs (with PVR service) and it's costing me over 40 bucks a month in fees - $15x2 for the PVR service and then $5x2 for the box rentals (I think thats the fee) and then I think I'm also being hit for a remote control fee (believe it or not) - I'm just wondering why they aren't hitting me up for a rental fee on the power cord... Hmmm maybe I better shut up before they get any bright ideas... :lol:

Anyway, is anyone else here following this stuff?

Dave

[RCbridge]

I wouldn't count on very much happening on that date!!

Keep in mind anything out there on e-bay now will not be activated, the retail boxes will need to be designed to work with the open access policy.
If you purchase a box be careful about what you buy!!

Let's hope when it actually happens the cable card fees aren't to high.
I haven't heard much about 3rd party boxes (non Motorola,SA etc) becoming available to purchase.

[Tulpa]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

and then I think I'm also being hit for a remote control fee (believe it or not) -

It should be on your bill. Mine's like $.15 or so.

In any case, I bet they do jack up the rent on cable cards to make up for the lost revenue. I mean, they have to control the access somehow.

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by RCbridge

I wouldn't count on very much happening on that date!!

Keep in mind anything out there on e-bay now will not be activated, the retail boxes will need to be designed to work with the open access policy.
If you purchase a box be careful about what you buy!!

Let's hope when it actually happens the cable card fees aren't to high.
I haven't heard much about 3rd party boxes (non Motorola,SA etc) becoming available to purchase.

From the wording in that article it seems like that July 1st deadline isn't going to be moved (again). The head of the FCC seems pretty firm on it's stance. Also being in violation of an FCC mandate isn't exactly a minor offense -- they can impose some pretty HARSH penalties if they so choose. The FCC has lots of power.

As for boxes....

You're right, anyone buying MOST (every) cable box found currently on ebay will NOT be magically entitled to 'automatic authorization' by your friendly neighborhood cable franchise. In fact I can pretty much guarantee you WILL NOT be using that box on their system.

The boxes that your cable provider WILL be FORCED (via the FCC mandate) to APROVE are those NEW boxes that were announced at this past CES.

Scientific Atlanta - The SA-8300HDC (and others)
Motorola - forgot the models

But all of those NEW boxes are just like the CURRENT models (that are used by your cable company) except they don't have things like smart card slots and such... They do however have CABLE CARD slots.

This new mandate is going to (if I read things correctly) force cable companies to do TWO things.

1 - Authorize box purchased by customers that have cable card slots (like the SA8300HDC)
2 - ONLY deploy new cable boxes that will be purchasable by customers. (like the SA8300HDC)

The will not be able to deploy the older style HD8300HD (without the C) since they don't comply with the FCC mandate. (I might be wrong about this last part.... i dunno for sure.)

Here is a quote that might clear up some of my above comments:

The second phase begins July 1, when cable providers are banned from providing new boxes that integrate both the security and navigation functions. Existing subscribers can continue to rent their current boxes.

The new boxes will have to use the same cable card technology as the competition. The FCC is hoping that forcing cable companies to do that will motivate them to make sure the cards work like they're supposed to. The agency hopes it will eliminate some of the problems that have faced customers like Ken Hornstein, a 36-year-old computer programmer from Vienna, Va.

Dave

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

July 1st is some kind of "D-Day" for the cable operators where they MUST allow us to buy our own cable boxes and get the same level of service as we would have gotten if we were renting a box from them... (thats what I've taken away from the stories I've read anyway - don't take what I said a gospel...).

Your caveat is on-target. That description is way off-the-mark with regard to the reality of what actually happens on July 1. See below.

Most importantly, nothing changes on July 1 in terms of what customers can buy, and what customers can expect MSOs to activate. If you are not permitted to do it today, you won't be permitted to do it on July 1. If you are allowed to do it after July, you are allowed to do it today. The only significant difference after July 1 in this regard is that some of the CE manufacturers, either directly or through the MSOs themselves, will start selling boxes -- note that that is up to them. They're not required to start selling anything. I spoke with someone at Comcast recently who said that he heard that they (Comcast) will be selling Motorola DCH-series boxes (in addition to renting them). However, they aren't required to do that. They are required to provide you CableCards so that if you can buy your own box, you can use it to receive many of channels you would receive on a MSO-issued cable box.

The most significant difference between that description above and reality involves the words "same level of service" in your message -- there is NOTHING that promises that. Nothing.

[S-dogg]

Originally Posted by bicker1

Most importantly, nothing changes on July 1 in terms of what customers can buy, and what customers can expect MSOs to activate. If you are not permitted to do it today, you won't be permitted to do it on July 1. If you are allowed to do it after July, you are allowed to do it today. The only significant difference after July 1 in this regard is that some of the CE manufacturers, either directly or through the MSOs themselves, will start selling boxes -- note that that is up to them. They're not required to start selling anything. I spoke with someone at Comcast recently who said that he heard that they (Comcast) will be selling Motorola DCH-series boxes (in addition to renting them). However, they aren't required to do that. They are required to provide you CableCards so that if you can buy your own box, you can use it to receive many of channels you would receive on a MSO-issued cable box.

Okay, now I'm a bit confused. The way I understood the July 1 deadline to work is that if a new subscriber signs up for digital cable on July 2, a cable company must give the consumer the option to purchase a cable box that does not integrate security features (one of the CC boxes). Of course, the customer can choose to rent a box.

Now, it's possible that Motorola et al. will choose not to sell directly to the consumer through retail outlets or mail order, and will only sell through cable providers. But since cable providers are required to offer this, the STB makers need to provide something to sell. So, while they may not be required to sell by law, they'll be required in order to continue to do business with the company of their choice. Am I off the mark on this?

Based on the above, my thinking is that the STB makers will (eventually) begin selling directly to the public, especially if competition from makers like Moxi begins to appear. Who knows how long that will take though.

I'm looking forward to the STB market being opened up, but like some previous posters, I'm also concerned about the rental price on cable cards. Generally, they seem to be about 1/3 the price of a box rental, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that jump.

Also for the OP, I suspect that even if you buy your own PVR boxes, you'll still be on the hook to your provider for the PVR service fee.

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by S-dogg

Okay, now I'm a bit confused. The way I understood the July 1 deadline to work is that if a new subscriber signs up for digital cable on July 2, a cable company must give the consumer the option to purchase a cable box that does not integrate security features (one of the CC boxes).

Yes, I noted that that was what you seemed to think. It is not true. The cable company can give a new subscriber an old box that has been in service previously.

Originally Posted by S-dogg

Now, it's possible that Motorola et al. will choose not to sell directly to the consumer through retail outlets or mail order, and will only sell through cable providers.

That's correct. The law doesn't require that anyone SELL anything. It requires that the MSO to only put new boxes into service if those boxes support a separable security technology.

Don't worry about being able to buy a box -- they're ALREADY available for sale (specifically, the TiVo Series 3), and have been for a while. That's not what the July 1 date is about... it just is forcing the cable companies to START using the same technology themselves.

Originally Posted by S-dogg

But since cable providers are required to offer this, the STB makers need to provide something to sell. So, while they may not be required to sell by law, they'll be required in order to continue to do business with the company of their choice. Am I off the mark on this?

Yes, I think you are. This regulation doesn't affect the STB makers one bit. I know that Motorola is reticent about offering their boxes for sale to the public, but the MSOs can surely sell them instead of renting them, if they wish, and I know that Comcast will be doing so.

Originally Posted by S-dogg

Based on the above, my thinking is that the STB makers will (eventually) begin selling directly to the public, especially if competition from makers like Moxi begins to appear.

Some will. TiVo already does. Motorola probably won't from what I've read -- it seems that they foresee a better environment for their products by selling them to resellers than selling them direct to the general public. That perspective is not unprecedented.

Originally Posted by S-dogg

I'm looking forward to the STB market being opened up, but like some previous posters, I'm also concerned about the rental price on cable cards. Generally, they seem to be about 1/3 the price of a box rental, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that jump.

The rental rate for CableCards is regulated. It will be kept under control.

[phantsam]

One thing to think of... the cable boxes your renting... they're expensive. Plus, it;s liek if you own your own cable modem. If it's your equipment then the cable company won't support it. They can come out and check your lines and what not, but if its your box then tough luck.

Last time i checked, the Dual Tuner DVR's were ~$700 each.

[bicker1]

I think there is some down trending in pricing. The TiVo Series 3 costs $599 - $200 rebate this week.

[cavu]

Originally Posted by phantsam

Last time i checked, the Dual Tuner DVR's were ~$700 each.

Check out the Best Buy web-site; they list 16 digital cable boxes!

[DaveGee]

bicker1, thanks for the reply since I'm really interested in this stuff and want to know exactly what this stuff means...

Originally Posted by bicker1

Your caveat is on-target. That description is way off-the-mark with regard to the reality of what actually happens on July 1. Most importantly, nothing changes on July 1 in terms of what customers can buy, and what customers can expect MSOs to activate. If you are not permitted to do it today, you won't be permitted to do it on July 1. If you are allowed to do it after July, you are allowed to do it today.

Okay got that...

Originally Posted by bicker1

The only significant difference after July 1 in this regard is that some of the CE manufacturers, either directly or through the MSOs themselves, will start selling boxes -- note that that is up to them. They're not required to start selling anything.

Okay...

The most significant difference between that description above and reality involves the words "same level of service" in your message -- there is NOTHING that promises that. Nothing.

Then I'm confused...

Let's use my example.... Cablevision is my provider and I currently have (rent) 2 SA-8300HD DVR boxes and those boxes use a form of 'smart-card' technology that is in some way 'linked' to the box security. Pull the card and no signal... put the card back and the signal returns.

Now if I were to purchase one of those SA-8300HD DVR boxes on say ebay for example CV is in no way obligated to 'authorize' that box... Even if it *is* the same hardware they are themselves are currently deploying.

Now from the readings I'm made to believe that the July 1 deadline will PROHIBIT CV from (further?) supplying that type of cable box to it's customers. In other words if I wanted a 3rd box and went down to the CV walk-in center they wouldn't be able to deploy that 'old style) cable box. Instead they'd have to provide me a cable box that uses cable-card technology to handle the security side of things - something like the new SA-8300HDC box a box that instead of using a smartcard type of security-authorization it uses your everyday run of the mill cable-card for it's security. Just like the card they provide to TIVO3 owners and cable-card equipped HDTVs.

Now finally....

If I were to return to ebay and find someone selling the **NEW** SA-8300HDC cablebox and purchased it my cable company (cablevision) would have to allow me to use that box and in turn get the same basic feature set that is provided to those users who are renting the SA-8300HDC from CV. Except for (I would guess) the ability to purchase PPV and such (since that would I guess be 2 way and not really available at this time)

Dave

[phantsam]

Originally Posted by cavu

Check out the Best Buy web-site; they list 16 digital cable boxes!

I see that, did you look at the specs?

Cogeco DCT 6200

No DVR, service provided by Cogeco and they require a 12 month commitment and they have to install it. Sounds like crap to me.

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by cavu

Check out the Best Buy web-site; they list 16 digital cable boxes!

That's the Canadian bestbuy store front... Canadian laws on cable box ownership must be different than those in the US. It seems safe to assume that cable-box ownership is allowed. Searching for cable boxes on the US bestbuy only gets you a listing for two directv (or was it dishnetwork) boxes.

Dave

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

Now from the readings I'm made to believe that the July 1 deadline will PROHIBIT CV from (further?) supplying that type of cable box to it's customers.

No. It will prohibit the MSO from supplying "NEW" cable boxes to customers unless they have separable authentication. That word "new" is critical. They can provide customers, even new customers, OLD cable boxes, which do not have separable authentication. The key is whether or not the cable box had ever been deployed to a customer before or not.

Originally Posted by DaveGee

If I were to return to ebay and find someone selling the **NEW** SA-8300HDC cablebox and purchased it my cable company (cablevision) would have to allow me to use that box and in turn get the same basic feature set that is provided to those users who are renting the SA-8300HDC from CV.

If the STB uses the separable authentication technology that the MSO uses, then customers will be able to get CableCards for such boxes, and that will decrypt channels.

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

Canadian laws on cable box ownership must be different than those in the US.

There are no American laws regarding cable box ownership (at least not in the manner you seem to be implying). Of course, you can't steal boxes, and you're subject to legal action if you possess stolen boxes, but other than that, you can buy whatever you want, in this regard. Those boxes are basically useless unless you can get a cable operator to activate them within their network for you. Again, the issue in the United States is that without that box employing the separable authentication scheme adopted by the cable operator, that's simply not going to happen. You're allowed to own it -- but it is simply a paper-weight.

[GoIrish]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

Then I'm confused...
Dave

Let's use my example.... Cablevision is my provider and I currently have (rent) 2 SA-8300HD DVR boxes and those boxes use a form of 'smart-card' technology that is in some way 'linked' to the box security. Pull the card and no signal... put the card back and the signal returns.

Current boxes like this example don't have separable security or a smart card to process the encryption/security. It's built into the box.

Now if I were to purchase one of those SA-8300HD DVR boxes on say ebay for example CV is in no way obligated to 'authorize' that box... Even if it *is* the same hardware they are themselves are currently deploying.

Correct. You can't legally purchase these boxes in the US as they are not made for consumer purchase.

Now from the readings I'm made to believe that the July 1 deadline will PROHIBIT CV from (further?) supplying that type of cable box to it's customers. In other words if I wanted a 3rd box and went down to the CV walk-in center they wouldn't be able to deploy that 'old style) cable box. Instead they'd have to provide me a cable box that uses cable-card technology to handle the security side of things - something like the new SA-8300HDC box a box that instead of using a smartcard type of security-authorization it uses your everyday run of the mill cable-card for it's security. Just like the card they provide to TIVO3 owners and cable-card equipped HDTVs.

They can use any box that has been in a customers home previously after July 1st. Any new boxes they deploy after this date must have sep security and be the new style boxes.

Now finally....

If I were to return to ebay and find someone selling the **NEW** SA-8300HDC cablebox and purchased it my cable company (cablevision) would have to allow me to use that box and in turn get the same basic feature set that is provided to those users who are renting the SA-8300HDC from CV. Except for (I would guess) the ability to purchase PPV and such (since that would I guess be 2 way and not really available at this time)

Correct, they would support but it but it most likely will have some limitations like guide or VOD.


GoIrish

[GoIrish]

Originally Posted by bicker1

There are no American laws regarding cable box ownership (at least not in the manner you seem to be implying). Of course, you can't steal boxes, and you're subject to legal action if you possess stolen boxes, but other than that, you can buy whatever you want, in this regard. Those boxes are basically useless unless you can get a cable operator to activate them within their network for you. Again, the issue in the United States is that without that box employing the separable authentication scheme adopted by the cable operator, that's simply not going to happen. You're allowed to own it -- but it is simply a paper-weight.

You're allowed to own it provided it's not the stolen property of a cable provider which is most often the case.

GoIrish

[cavu]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

That's the Canadian bestbuy store front

Duh ... yeah I know that.

I was posting only to show the relative costs.

Originally Posted by DaveGee

Canadian laws on cable box ownership must be different than those in the US.

There are no such "laws" ... just cable company policies. BIG difference! Same in the States.

[Ratman]

I guess I'm not understanding all this...

Why "own" a cable stb/dvr? At ~$15 a month, you have every feature you desire as well as support and replacement in the event of problems/failure.

Even if you buy a DVR (to own), what happens when if dies? You're out the cost for the entire purchase price and/or repairs.

If you compare the price(s):
Rent @$15 per month = $180 per year

If your "owned" DVR craps out at ~3 years, you break even and have to re-buy. If it fails... your have to pay for repair if it's out of warranty. If you rent.... they replace it and you continue to pay your rental fee. Usually... no questions asked.

So.... you may say, "I'll get an extended warranty!". But you pay for that and IMO still lose.

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by Ratman

I guess I'm not understanding all this... Why "own" a cable stb/dvr? At ~$15 a month, you have every feature you desire as well as support and replacement in the event of problems/failure.

The reasons vary by person, I'm sure. One reason is that the devices (device, really) you can "own" is technologically superior to what the cable companies are providing. It's not much difference from asking, Why buy a Lexus when you can lease a Toyota?

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by Ratman

I guess I'm not understanding all this... Why "own" a cable stb/dvr? At ~$15 a month, you have every feature you desire as well as support and replacement in the event of problems/failure.

Well let me give a few examples as to why you'd want to own your own...

Cablevision (my provider) will not deploy the multi-room variety of the SA-8300HD DVR.... I'm not sure why but the point is I was told in no uncertain terms 'forget it, don't hold your breath'

Well if I have 2 or 3 HD DVR boxes I darn well would want to be able to access the DVR recordings that may have been recorded on whatever box I own. This way I could really get away with 3 DVRs and cover most every base... DVR1 will record CBS & NBC, DVR2 will record FOX & ABC and that leaves me with DVR3 to record whatever else might pop up on channels such as Science Channel, USA, History Channel or whatever. Now I'd basicly have all prime time programs available on all the boxes all the time.

Well that's never gonna happen on the CV system... Nor will getting whatever 'cool new feature' some box maker dreams up and CV decides it isn't going to offer.

Another example would be the turning off of certain ports on the cable box - for example lets say CV decides to turn off the SATA jack found on the SA-8300 (something I'm sure they could do - but thankfully I don't think they do) then I'd not be able to buy a cheap 1TB external drive (they are getting pretty cheap these days) and pop it on the box to greatly expand the storage space.

Cable providers are like cell phone carriers... they just love to have control and having the ability to turn off certain features must be a real turn on to them... Then after turning off a feature they sometimes even re-sell you that feature for a ADDED MONTHLY FEE... Voice dialing comes to mind and so does bluetooth on Verizon (they do whatever than can to strangle hold or deactivate BT - well I know they did when I was with them).

Anyway... for people that don't mind spending the money... owning your own equipment can have its advantages.

[Ratman]

Can you provide a side by side comparison of features, capablilities and prices of those you can buy after 7/1 to those that can be rented? I've not seen one product that is "superior" as of today. In reality, there may be more defecits. I could be wrong.......

You may find that when comparing price vs. performance vs. warranty.... the Toyota may provide "more" what the consumer desires.

IMO.. everyone is looking at "saving" a $15 per month rental fee... and not taking other factors into consideration.

Also... whether you buy, rent, lease one or many... the $$ works out the same.

Anyway... for people that don't mind spending the money... owning your own equipment can have its advantages.

Until it fails and has to be replaced/repaired (under 3 years).

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by cavu

Duh ... yeah I know that.

I was posting only to show the relative costs.There are no such "laws" ... just cable company policies. BIG difference! Same in the States.

Okay I really didn't mean 'law' I really meant Canadian CATV providers operate under different policies than they do in the US and aren't in any way under the control of the FCC or it's policies (except for whatever treaties/policies that I assume the US and Canada are jointly bound by).

Dave

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by Ratman

Can you provide a side by side comparison of features, capablilities and prices of those you can buy after 7/1 to those that can be rented?

I hate to be a broken record: The 7/1 date has no effect on what you can and cannot buy. New boxes won't magically become available for sale on that date.

Carry on...

Originally Posted by Ratman

I've not seen one product that is "superior" as of today. In reality, there may be more defecits. I could be wrong.......

The TiVo Series 3 is better than the MSO cable boxes, in every way except two AFAIC: (1) CableCard compatibility, and (2) On Demand capability.

Originally Posted by Ratman

You may find that when comparing price vs. performance vs. warranty.... the Toyota may provide "more" what the consumer desires.

Could be. It worked out that way for me the first time with the TiVo Series 3, but 99% of the other folks who bought one didn't have the problem I had, so for them, that Lexus was far far better than the Toyota.

Originally Posted by Ratman

IMO.. everyone is looking at "saving" a $15 per month rental fee... and not taking other factors into consideration.

Oh gosh. It would be incredibly arrogant to make such an assumption Ratman -- I'm sure that you didn't mean those words you typed.

Personally, I'll keep my cable company DVR even if the TiVo Series 3 works for me this time. I need three tuners, during a couple of hours each week, and I like the idea of having the two different DVRs backing each other up.

Originally Posted by Ratman

Also... whether you buy, rent, lease one or many... the $$ works out the same.

Actually, amortized over four years, I believe the $406 (after rebate) TiVo Series 3 is a few dollars less expensive per month, but money is not the most important factor. As you can see, I'm keeping my cable company DVR, and paying more. Why? Because if the CableCards work, the TiVo Series 3 it is worth the extra money -- so it surely would be worth paying less for.

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by Ratman

Can you provide a side by side comparison of features, capablilities and prices of those you can buy after 7/1 to those that can be rented? I've not seen one product that is "superior" as of today. In reality, there may be more defecits. I could be wrong.......

I just gave you one example but I'll give it again... The SA8300HD Multiroom is one box that I would love to have but my provider refuses to offer it... It is my hope that it will be offered by SA in a cablecard version that I (one day) will be able to buy...

And even if you don't don't like that example... Are you really under the impression that no new cable boxes will be developed in the coming year that will have new features that I might want to have?!?!

Originally Posted by Ratman

You may find that when comparing price vs. performance vs. warranty.... the Toyota may provide "more" what the consumer desires.

Huh.... this isn't about the consumer as a mob - that is the system we're currently STUCK WITH. Your provider has DEEMED what IT THINKS the majority of the customers would like and how much they are willing to pay for it and then focused ONLY on the boxes that 'best fit' that profile.

Sounds a lot like socialism to me! Would you really want the state CHOOSE FOR YOU the type of car you should be able to buy even if you had the money to buy 'something else'?

Originally Posted by Ratman

IMO.. everyone is looking at "saving" a $15 per month rental fee... and not taking other factors into consideration. Also... whether you buy, rent, lease one or many... the $$ works out the same. Until it fails and has to be replaced/repaired (under 3 years).

Not true... Sure I might have rolled off some rental fees in my initial post but it's really about the freedom to be able to choose EXACTLY what you want to have... based on ALL of the available cable box technologies and not being TOLD you'll have the RED cable box, don't worry, you'll learn to like it...

Are you sure you don't work for the cable company?!?!

Dave

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by bicker1

I hate to be a broken record: The 7/1 date has no effect on what you can and cannot buy. New boxes won't magically become available for sale on that date. Carry on...

You keep saying that and yet I've seen video-casts from the floor at Comdex (this past one) where Scientific Atlanta, Motorola and ........ (somebody else) were all showing off their new (cablecard enabled) cable-boxes that will be made available for sale to consumers on or after July 1st.

So I'm not sure what you mean... Are you saying none of them will market their boxes to the public and instead just keep things status quo? If this is the case what exactly is the point of all this?

And even if this is the way things will happen - those boxes WILL eventually turn up for sale, that I'm pretty sure of.

Dave

[bicker1]

Originally Posted by DaveGee

You keep saying that and yet I've seen video-casts from the floor at Comdex (this past one) where Scientific Atlanta, Motorola and ........ (somebody else) were all showing off their new (cablecard enabled) cable-boxes that will be made available for sale to consumers on or after July 1st.

Read what you wrote: "on or after". And the presentations didn't say anything, I bet, about who'd be selling the Motorola boxes. What you saw doesn't contradict what I mentioned.

Originally Posted by DaveGee

So I'm not sure what you mean... Are you saying none of them will market their boxes to the public and instead just keep things status quo?

No. I'm saying that, most likely, Motorola will sell theirs through resellers, rather than direct to the public. And that the July 1 date has NOTHING to do with whether and when and how the box manufacturers start selling their boxes. (They'd be allowed to sell them today if they wanted -- nothing changes on July 1 in that regard.) That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by DaveGee

If this is the case what exactly is the point of all this?

And that's the point of my message: That it seemed to me that you missed "the point of all this". The point of all this is to force the MSOs to use the same technology that is used to support customer-owned STBs, so that the MSOs are forced to become proficient at supporting that technology.

That's it.

I know some folks would like it to mean more, but that's just not the case.

Originally Posted by DaveGee

And even if this is the way things will happen - those boxes WILL eventually turn up for sale, that I'm pretty sure of.

Indeed. I even said they would.

[Ratman]

Originally Posted by bicker1

Actually, amortized over four years, I believe the $406 (after rebate) TiVo Series 3 is a few dollars less expensive per month, but money is not the most important factor. As you can see, I'm keeping my cable company DVR, and paying more. Why? Because if the CableCards work, the TiVo Series 3 it is worth the extra money -- so it surely would be worth paying less for.

.... not when you add the monthly TiVo subscription fees and monthly rental fee of two Cablecards.

[bicker1]

Yes, even when you add the monthly TiVo subscription fees and monthly rental fee of two CableCards.

[DaveGee]

Originally Posted by bicker1

I know some folks would like it to mean more, but that's just not the case.Indeed. I even said they would.

Ahh I get what you're saying and yep you're right about the July 1 date not 'really' changing anything but at the same time (in a way) I'm also right that the date does indeed mean something in the way that it's forcing a direction, a direction that will with any luck benefit the consumers in the long run.

And as for Mot/SA selling to the public... I wouldn't think so, they really don't have that kind of business model but seeing those boxes available at amazon, best buy and the like will (hopefully) happen either way.

The only thing the July 1 date does is draw a line in the sand for the catv providers and the box manufactures where any NEW equipment being sold OR deployed must comply with the FCC ruling and as such those new boxes must be ready or near ready for production.

The think I'm not too happy about.... but I guess it has to be that way is that 'any box that had been deployed' prior to July 1 can continue to be re-deployed (if and when someone turns in the box). Seems like it'll be up to the catv providers to 'self police' themselves on that and could easily fudge the numbers so it'll allow them to continue not deploying yesterdays boxes for quite some time into the future without really needing to dip into the 'new style boxes' unlit the very last possible moment and therefore not force them to keep their system operating 'as well' with these 'new' cablecard boxes (whenever they do appear) as their system does with the 'old' boxes.

Just thinking... given the cable companies knew this was coming (potentially coming) I'd be willing to bet that anytime a customer had a problem with their box the CATV company was more than willing to just 'give them a new box' (even if there was nothing wrong with the old box) simply as a way to build a stockpile of 'previously deployed boxes' so when and if this deadline did pass they'd be ready... or could it be that the providers didn't really care 'all that much' about this and knew it was the next step...

Dave