FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD

[AngelEyes]

Please excuse the overly dramatic topic title but I am desperate for some help on this subject and thought this might generate some interest...

Background:

I use AnyDVD HD to backup my HD-DVD and Bluray discs onto a PC in the office, I then copy these files over to my HTPC via a gigabit network to my home. So my HTPC doesn't have any HD disk spinners attached.

HTPC Specs
2Gb Ram
Core2Duo E4400
Asus 8500GT
Creative X-Fi (8 x analogue out to Rotel Audio Processor)

I have tried various bits of software including Nero7 Premium, WinDVD (neither of which actually work on my system) and have settled with the somewhat flawed PowerDVD Ultra.

I noticed the problem a while back after testing various HD disks and swicthing between DD+ and LPCM or DD TrueHD. There is no audiable difference in sound quality; maybe a slight volume change and if I am really straining my ears a tine weenie 5% improvement but that is it.

Now I know DD+ at 1.5mbs is going to sound good but surely an 8mbs LPCM track is going to sound a lot better? Not to my ears at least...

I decided to contact Cyberlink, initially to see if I had some Codec issue but it turns out that my ears were not decieving me because PowerDVD DOWNSAMPLES the uncompressed audio before sending it to your sound card driver!

So all this expense building a gorgeous HTPC has been for nothing, as I still cannot get uncompressed audio

Can anyone tell me if there IS a way to get uncompressed audio with an HTPC?

Thanks,

Adam

PS. Below is the transcript between myself and cyberlink, just for your info:

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Can you clarify what audio decoder and audio filter PowerDVD should use for Dolby TruHD, DTS-HD MA and LPCM?

Originally Posted by Cyberlink Support

We understand your concern related with PowerDVD.

We regret to inform you that we can't we can't reveal which audio filter in use by PowerDVD.

Please note that according to AACS compliance rule, player has to protect AACS decrypted content from digital copy. Since there's no secure protection between AP and audio driver yet, PowerDVD has to downsample High-def Audio to 48 kHz before sending to driver.

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Ok, let me get this absolutely straight.

Currently all HD Audio output by PowerDVD is downsampled before reaching
the Audio driver? Can you confirm exactly what sample and bitrate it is downsampled to.

Originally Posted by Cyberlink Support

Yes, PowerDVD has to downsample High-definition audio to no higher than (including) 48 kHz 16 bits-per-sample before sending to driver.

[archibael]

This has been suspected for awhile but never confirmed in this way, that I'm aware. However, using some of the alternative solutions (ahem... see sarah99's threads in this forum) you should be able to get LPCM at least to work at full bitrate/frequency. LPCM doesn't need any special decoders like DTS/TrueHD do, so you're not at the mercy of Cyberlink's compliance to the need for PAVP.

But still, not wonderful news. Though at least this gives hope that HDMI ADD2 cards will be allowed to transmit 8-channel LPCM sound in PowerDVD/WinDVD (albeit with the same 48kHz/16 bit restriction). Was wondering how they were getting around the PAVP requirement on the current analog sound codecs....

[AngelEyes]

Thanks for the reply.

I have read some of Sarah99's posts but from what I gather she had no success with HD audio. I had wondered if Cyberlink were downsampling LPCM as well but it wasn't exactly clear in their replies.

I have briefly tinkered with Graphedit and Filmerit to try out different audio decoder/filters but I am flailing around in the dark really. I may pursue the LPCM route as most of my disks have LPCM as well as DD TrueHD and it is worth some time tinkering.

Can you suggest which audio decoder/filter I should try to get this to work?

Adam

[rickardk]

I've ripped all my HD DVDs and Blu-ray to .ts-format. I play them back in Vista Media Center. My problem is that ffdshow cant accept 8 channel lpcm. But 6 channel 24-bit lpcm does sound alot better then regular DD.

[bullgates]

How many years before they actually get all this security sorted out?

[AVSAR]

So I am guessing that AnyDVD HD running in the background would have no affect on the downsampling of PowerDVD HD because this is not an HDCP issue but a hard-coded function of the software...correct?

In that case: Calling all software reverse engineers - remove this crappy "function" of the software. Even if there was some solution to remove the downsampling, how the hell would I get the digital signal to the receiver? There are no HDMI sound cards available. What a joke. Until this issue is addressed, HTPCs are little more than a novelty for HD movie use.

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by AVSAR

So I am guessing that AnyDVD HD running in the background would have no affect on the downsampling of PowerDVD HD because this is not an HDCP issue but a hard-coded function of the software...correct?

That is how I understand it. The only possible solution I can see is if the downsampling is not in the player par-se but in the Cyberlink audio decoder or filter. I this is the case it may be possible to assign alternatives.

Unfortunately I am not an expert in this regard but hopefully someone with more idea will come along....

Adam

[Davinleeds]

This is disappointing since it kinda takes out the HT in HTPC. Watermarking the audio? Would this apply to hdmi out of pc to receiver as it's a combined protected path?

[AngelEyes]

I don't honestly know but my gut feeling is that it would be downsampled for any connection method, as LPCM would be passed to the sound card driver before the sound card makes any 'decision' on whether it is output via analogue or HDMI.

As bitstream cannot be passed unless the original disk allows it, that is not an option either.

Adam

[MidnightWatcher]

I use PowerDVD Ultra and notice a definite improvement when using TrueHD. I use an X-Fi via analog.

Audio formats supported by PowerDVD Ultra:

# DTS-HD
# Dolby Pro Logic IIx
# DTS-ES Discrete
# Dolby Virtual Speaker
# DTS 96/24
# Dolby Headphone
# DTS Neo:6
# MLP Lossless
# DTS 5.1
# LPCM audio support
# Dolby Digital Plus
# MP3
# Dolby TrueHD (5.1)
# WAV
# Dolby Digital (5.1)
# AAC decoding
# Dolby Digital EX
# DVD-Audio

High-Definition Audio Technologies

* Dolby TrueHD:
Mandatory audio for all HD DVD players and optional for Blu-ray Discs. TrueHD delivers lossless, source-master-quality sound as multi-channel audio soundtracks to a playback system. TrueHD is compatible with older A/V players through HDMI.

* Dolby Digital Plus:
Dolby's next-generation Dolby Digital technology, offers multi channel sound with discrete channel output. Channel and program extensions can carry multi-channel audio programs and support multiple programs in a single encoded bitstream.

* DTS-HD:
With twice the audio performance of standard DVDs, this is mandatory audio technology for both Blu-ray Discs and HD DVDs. Works with new format standards and older, existing home theater systems.

* DVD-Audio: Enjoy rich sound offered by a 5.1 channel audio experience.

http://www.powerdvd-ultra.com-http.com/audio.html

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher

I use PowerDVD Ultra and notice a definite improvement when using TrueHD. I think Cyberlink support is smoking pot.

Is that compared to DD or DD+ and I assume you are talking about via analogue? Also without meaning to be patronising, are you sure it isn't just a perceived improvement due to volume increase on the TrueHD track, this fooled me for a bit...

What discs do you notice it on as I would like to try and see for myself?

I have spent the most time comparing the tracks on Pirates, Dead Man's Chest as it has the highest bitrate uncompressed audio I have come across so far, 7.2mbs or something like that.

Thanks.

Adam

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher

I use PowerDVD Ultra and notice a definite improvement when using TrueHD. I use an X-Fi via analog.

Audio formats supported by PowerDVD Ultra:

# DTS-HD
# Dolby Pro Logic IIx
# DTS-ES Discrete
# Dolby Virtual Speaker
# DTS 96/24
# Dolby Headphone
# DTS Neo:6
# MLP Lossless
# DTS 5.1
# LPCM audio support
# Dolby Digital Plus
# MP3
# Dolby TrueHD (5.1)
# WAV
# Dolby Digital (5.1)
# AAC decoding
# Dolby Digital EX
# DVD-Audio

The key word being 'supported', meaning it can play them back. What it doesn't say is at what sample rate. If you think TrueHD sounds better then I am not going to argue with you, I just haven't had that experience so far...

Adam

[MidnightWatcher]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Is that compared to DD or DD+ and I assume you are talking about via analogue? Also without meaning to be patronising, are you sure it isn't just a perceived improvement due to volume increase on the TrueHD track, this fooled me for a bit...

What discs do you notice it on as I would like to try and see for myself?

I have spent the most time comparing the tracks on Pirates, Dead Man's Chest as it has the highest bitrate uncompressed audio I have come across so far, 7.2mbs or something like that.

Via analog, yes. HD DVD titles like Superman Returns, Batman Begins, The Matrix Trilogy sound much better when TrueHD is selected. It isn't just perceived, I've switched between the two and can hear a difference when TrueHD "kicks in". It is a richer sound with TrueHD with better bass. It may be downsampled to 48Khz, but the quality is much better than DD and even DD+.

[AngelEyes]

I have Matrix knocking about somewhere so will give it and see if I can tell the difference but it's late now and I'm off to bed

BTW what is your audio kit, maybe mine isn't up to the job...?

Thanks.

Adam

EDIT: Can you recommend a good scene in Matrix to try a comparison?

[MidnightWatcher]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

I have Matrix knocking about somewhere so will give it and see if I can tell the difference but it's late now and I'm off to bed

BTW what is your audio kit, maybe mine isn't up to the job...?

Nothing fancy, just outputting to a set of Logitech Z5500 5.1. I use Vista x64, not sure if that makes a difference or not.

[SpHeRe31459]

Just to be clear, you're not having the X-Fi try and reprocess the audio are you? The X-Fi has internal DD and DTS decoders, and of course all sorts of other sound processing like Crystalizer, etc. I wonder if that makes a difference.

[Davinleeds]

What would I use to measure rate out of PDVD/HTPC and a HD stb?

[galileo2000]

I would still get it with the grain of salt.

Cyberlink support is known for the excellent responses.

I'll ask around.

[Davinleeds]

HDDVD= 1.5 Mbps , Cyber downsamples to 48 khz 16 bits. How much are we loosing?

[almostinsane]

Where did you come up with 448kbps?

[moshmothma]

So wait, in the absence of AACS is the audio still downsampled?

[MidnightWatcher]

Originally Posted by Davinleeds

HDDVD= 448kbps, Cyber downsamples to 48 khz 16 bits. How much are we loosing?

The only HD DVD with 448 Kbps audio that I know of off hand is Planet Earth. Both the Blu-ray and HD DVD of Planet Earth are 448 Kbps. HD DVD is normally either 640 Kbps or 1.5 Mbps DD+, and TrueHD is often much higher.

[almostinsane]

I think he might have meant that this is the signal he's getting from Cyberlink to his receiver, not what is coming off of the disc.

[Davinleeds]

I corrected it, and look at this, lower right corner 48k/24bit, so we're loosing 8 bits?http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dts-encore-audio.php

[almostinsane]

Nothing decodes DTS MA HD. It's just a pile o'crap encoding.

Smoke and mirrors.

[Davinleeds]

Originally Posted by almostinsane

Nothing decodes DTS MA HD. It's just a pile o'crap encoding.

Smoke and mirrors.

That link has nothing to with MA HD.

[almostinsane]

Ok, didn't click on it. Since were talking HD only HD formats matter.

[iansilv]

We still don't have a clear answer on whether or not anydvdhd's presence makes a difference of whether or not Cyberlink detects the AACS and downsamples the audio.

[iansilv]

Will this shizz stop when we can get the audio digitally over an hdmi connection?

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by iansilv

We still don't have a clear answer on whether or not anydvdhd's presence makes a difference of whether or not Cyberlink detects the AACS and downsamples the audio.

As I understand it AnyDVD doesn't make any differentce as the PowerDVD software assumes no AACS exists (because right now it doesn't) so the downsampling is hard coded in the player.


Adam