FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD

[one_2go]

Originally Posted by Favelle

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Cyberlink doesn't tell anyone about this, advertises all the next-gen audio on the opening menu of PowerDVD, and when "showing information", the player says you are indeed playing a lossless track? Does anyone feel weird about spending a hundred dollars with a company that does this??

I know I do.

I have just decided not to spend $100 on the piece of software, there are alternatives

[Favelle]

I have just decided not to spend $100 on the piece of software, there are alternatives

What a .torrent of information you just said......LOL! Already on it brother.....already on it.....

[one_2go]

There is a UseNet full of information when you search for thinstall and 40 days ago. Thinstall has the advantage of loading PWDVD like MPC, 1 EXE no messing with the codecs and setup

[Davinleeds]

We are not alone:http://blogs.sun.com/constantin/entr...e_s_the_future

[Aitor Ibarra]

After seeing this thread and getting very worried, I posted in the insider thread in the HDTV Software Media Discussion forum...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2351

Hopefully it's a case of Cyberlink interpreting the rules too strictly and they remove this "feature" - if indeed it is actually there!

[AngelEyes]

I hope so, that would be a result if the do remove it (if it is actually there of course )

Adam

[SpHeRe31459]

Yeah AACS makes no such requirements about downsampling audio. My bet is that Cyberlink is either being A. conservative to cover the lowest common denominator in PC audio or B. stupid and doesn't even know that it is doing it. I bet it resamples for S/PDIF output and somehow has forgotten to include the logic to not do it when analog output is selected. Since analog output can have the full bandwidth/bitrate audio decoded and then output to it.

[archibael]

Actually, AACS does say

A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted
AACS Content to a digital output except:
1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of
Decrypted AACS Content, in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or
in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at
no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.
1.4.2 An output delineated in Table D1, AACS Authorized Digital Outputs, in
accordance with any associated restrictions and obligations specified
therein;

You could call this paranoia, but it's relatively easy to snoop the HD Audio bus that most motherboard sound solutions are built on; the PCI that most others are on ain't much harder. The audio is in digital form in both cases, the question is whether the HD Audio bus and PCI are "outputs". So to cover their asse(t)s they could be taking a very strict reading of 1.4.1. Certainly the initial plan to have PAVP (protected audio-video path) in place for all BD/HD DVD players was to use Vista only, but that obviously was relaxed away as Vista pushed out and the launch didn't push as far.

I think they're being overly conservative, as section 3.6.5 (regarding the protection of core functions of AACS from hacking with commonly available tools) soft-shoes the decrypted audio portion, concentrating instead on decrypted video.

[SpHeRe31459]

Analog audio output is allowed. Its in the section just above what you quoted. The restrictions on are digital audio outputs (such as S/PDIF) and analog video outputs.

A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted
AACS Content to an analog output except:
1.3.1 An analog output of audio, or of the audio portions of other forms of
Decrypted AACS Content;

Further we know all set-top players with analog outputs are allowed to have the full resolution decoded and sent out the 5.1 analog outs. So yes me thinks Cyberlink is being overly paranoid, much like Intervideo did in early versions of WinDVD with Blu-ray support when they downsampled everything to 960x540 regardless of the status of a video card's HDCP support.

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by archibael

Actually, AACS does say
Certainly the initial plan to have PAVP (protected audio-video path) in place for all BD/HD DVD players was to use Vista only, but that obviously was relaxed away as Vista pushed out and the launch didn't push as far.

Agreed. What that really means is we should also be pushing the vendors of HD DVD/Blu-ray decoding software such as Cyberlink and InterVideo to get off their butts and start making Vista native versions of the software, ideally as plugins to Vista Media Center.

[archibael]

Analog outputs are allowed, absolutely, but the data is still in digital format, unencrypted, inside the PC on easily accesible buses before it gets DAC'd. Optimally the encrypted data would be sent over PCI or PCIe or something and it would be decrypted on the same chip as the DACs; that was the intent of PAVP. The rules have gotten squishier since then (because the lack of encrypted audio solutions was... ahem... market limiting...), but not more rational or even readable.

I'm not defending Cyberlink's decision, but they are trying to protect the data as much as they can (all jokes about naked AACS keys aside)-- probably overzealously-- and since audio cards don't currently accept encrypted audio, there are legal arguments which could be made that they are liable for allowing unencrypted audio content over PCI.

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by archibael

Analog outputs are allowed, absolutely, but the data is still in digital format, unencrypted, inside the PC on easily accesible buses before it gets DAC'd. Optimally the encrypted data would be sent over PCI or PCIe or something and it would be decrypted on the same chip as the DACs; that was the intent of PAVP. The rules have gotten squishier since then, but not more rational or even readable.

I'm not defending Cyberlink's decision, but they are trying to protect the data as much as they can (all jokes about naked AACS keys aside)-- probably overzealously-- and since audio cards don't currently accept encrypted audio, there are legal arguments which could be made that they are liable for allowing unencrypted audio content over PCI.

True, but what do they think is going on in set-top players? I bet we could snoop those 1st gen Linux based Toshiba players too.

This situatation really just screams for a proper HDMI audio implimention on a GPU.

[archibael]

Originally Posted by SpHeRe31459

True, but what do they think is going on in set-top players? I bet we could snoop those 1st gen Linux based Toshiba players too.

This situatation really just screams for a proper HDMI audio implimention on a GPU.

I don't know. I thought most hardware players had the audio DACs integrated with the decoder chips. But I'll admit I haven't been involved in too many system teardowns.

Would love to see good HDMI audio on a GPU. Don't have a clue why we haven't seen one yet, though that's been hashed out in multiple threads so many times it's probably not worth discussing here again.

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by archibael

Would love to see good HDMI audio on a GPU. Don't have a clue why we haven't seen one yet, though that's been hashed out in multiple threads so many times it's probably not worth discussing here again.

Absolutely. On a semi-related note, being somewhat of an industry insider, check out my recent editorial: http://www.missingremote.com/index.p...=2072&Itemid=1

If you have any comments/insights/etc to add on the HDMI audio situation please do comment :-)

[archibael]

Had composed a nifty response to this but my browser crashed and I'm too lazy to do it over again. Basically, I don't have a good answer for why Nvidia and ATI aren't just using the HD Audio bus for HDMI the same way that's being done for analog codecs. It sounds to me like a PAVP thing, but that doesn't make much sense unless their "on-chip" HDMI codecs are architected really weirdly: all that data should be passed over the PCIe bus on discrete graphics cards that supply HDMI audio (without SPDIF loopback), and PCIe is point to point and much harder to snoop.

That said, the architectural framework around HDMI audio on the Azalia aka Intel HD Audio bus has been out in the field for at least three years or so, but the actual spec was only released publicly in July '07. Nvidia or ATI could have come up with their own private solution if they were reluctant to participate in solutions which utilized the unreleased spec, but perhaps they didn't want to invest the resources in what was soon to be a solved problem, and was (at the time this stuff was in design) a very niche market.

We're doing it with our partner vendors, but as bex0rs and others I've corresponded with here in the past can attest, the road is far from smooth. We concentrate in this Forum on high-def audio and squeezing the last couple of bits and kHz out of every stream, but the vast majority of the market is content with 128kbps MP3, and it can be hard to light a fire under audio device driver writers when they are aware of how little of the market actually will notice. I'm doing my best to change that, but it's slow going.

[vairulez]

I wouldn't be surprised if audio was downsampled, that is already what is happening with protected dvd-a that are downsampled to 16/48 ...

[mpgxsvcd]

Are there any video cards that currently support PCM over HDMI(either 5.1 or 7.1)?

[archibael]

Maybe the Prolink 7315 + Intel Graphics. Some people seem to have gotten it to work sporadically.

bex0rs and I are debugging it right now. His Denon receiver can take 7.1, polling the Prolink shows that it can take 7.1, but currently the Prolink doesn't believe the Denon can take 7.1, and therefore it tells Windows not to send anything higher than stereo.

[XxDeadlyxX]

Even if this is the case, TrueHD, PCM and DTS-HD MA all sound excellent on my X-Fi + Z-5300 speakers. Of the titles I have tried (a lot), I would say TrueHD is a bit behind DTS MA and PCM, but not by much.

For example, switching from DD 640kbps on The Patriot to LPCM 4.6mbit is a massive improvement in soundstage, clarity (centre speaker dialogue and other sound generally) and impact.

[mpgxsvcd]

Will a high end audio card give me better analog output than the Chaintech AV-710 sound card? If all I want is optical output and 7.1 analog output is the Chaintech enough?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16829120103

[almostinsane]

Maybe this will answer a few things:

http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost....4&postcount=18

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX

Even if this is the case, TrueHD, PCM and DTS-HD MA all sound excellent on my X-Fi + Z-5300 speakers. Of the titles I have tried (a lot), I would say TrueHD is a bit behind DTS MA and PCM, but not by much.

TrueHD often has dialnorm applied to it so the volume level my need to be recalibrated for TrueHD tracks, but since it is lossless, it can't be any worse then the PCM equivalent. Also the DTS-MA comment has to be a placebo effect as Cyberlink doen't include Master Audio decoders, only DTS. So what you're hearing must the 1.5Mbit lossy 'core' DTS stream, but it sounds quite good of course :-)

[XxDeadlyxX]

Originally Posted by SpHeRe31459

TrueHD often has dialnorm applied to it so the volume level my need to be recalibrated for TrueHD tracks, but since it is lossless, it can't be any worse then the PCM equivalent. Also the DTS-MA comment has to be a placebo effect as Cyberlink doen't include Master Audio decoders, only DTS. So what you're hearing must the 1.5Mbit lossy 'core' DTS stream, but it sounds quite good of course :-)

Well howcome in the information it shows the bitrate being ~4000+, on X-Men 3 it almost hit 7000

Also in information it says DTS-HD , not DTS like DVD and other language Blu-Ray DTS tracks which say "DTS 768kbps" or whatever.

[Humpa]

Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX

Well howcome in the information it shows the bitrate being ~4000+, on X-Men 3 it almost hit 7000

Also in information it says DTS-HD , not DTS like DVD and other language Blu-Ray DTS tracks which say "DTS 768kbps" or whatever.

I think the problem is that the information shows the the audio properties before the filter.
That has no bearing on the audio that is actually sent to the audio card.

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX

Well howcome in the information it shows the bitrate being ~4000+, on X-Men 3 it almost hit 7000

Also in information it says DTS-HD , not DTS like DVD and other language Blu-Ray DTS tracks which say "DTS 768kbps" or whatever.

'DTS-HD' isn't necessarily MA. Just 'DTS-HD' without Master Audio appended to it colloquially refers to DTS-HD High Resolution which is simply a less compressed version of good ol' standard lossy DTS.

If Cyberlink has an MA decoder I find it odd they don't advertise it, the only thing I find is that Cyblerink offers a DTS (DTS 24/96 also) and 'DTS-HD' decoder. I'm not sure what the generic 'DTS-HD' listing means.

However since you saw a variable bit rate, and a high one at that, it sure seems like DTS-HD MA is supported.

[almostinsane]

If that's true then Cyberlink is the only company that can decode DTS MA HD.

[SpHeRe31459]

Originally Posted by almostinsane

If that's true then Cyberlink is the only company that can decode DTS MA HD.

I know! and if that is the case that would be really useful marketing info don't ya think? I for one would feel a bit better about the PC route knowing I really can decode every audio compression scheme out there on HD DVD and Blu-ray.

[digitlman]

AngelEyes, Thank you very much for your time and effort put forth into this valuable information. i am currently using powerdvd and using a M-Audio 5.1 card to output the lossless audio tracks to my reciever. What you have said makes sense and i believe that it is probably true that they are downsampling the audio.

However you seem to be a little confused with some of the terms you are using. I would ask atleast that you change the title of this thread so as to not confuse people on the facts.

"FACT: You cannot listen to uncompressed HD audio via HTPC "

should read something like :

FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD"

there is no issue at all with listening to UNCOMPRESSED audio with powerdvd, it plays them. The issue is with High_resolution Audio tracks greater then 16bit/48khz. which has nothing to do with it being compressed or not.

according to cyberlink they will take any 24bit/192khz audio track and convert the rates down to 16/48 for output. it doesnt matter if that is lpcm uncompressed or dolby truhd compressed or dts-hd compressed. it is simply a bit resolution and sampling rate issue.

any movie could contain an uncompressed 16bit/48khz lossless audio track and powerdvd would play it back exactly.

I hope this makes sense and i have helped anyone who is confused on this subject (assuming im right and not whacked out of my mind on crack or something...)

Anyways, on to bigger and better things, how the hell do we get this problem fixed, i went through the trouble of buying a 24bit/192khz soundcard and it is not being utilized and i am very angry about it. how hard would it be for a wizbang hacker to remove that routine and hack powerdvd to just output the raw audio before it runs through their crappy downsample routine?

[dabl]

Originally Posted by almostinsane

Maybe this will answer a few things:

http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost....4&postcount=18

nope. notice this was from the original poster of this thread, dated earlier.

[NaTT]

thanks dabl!

pah! Adam you should have posted that in here! I'll give that a go...