Any plasmas have 120hz motion control now or in future?

[mattg3]

I finally saw the Samsung 71 series LCD and the picture was very weird.Like watching a very bright home video.The one thing that stood out was all motion was so rock steady it was a shock.Wondered if this 120 hz motion control caused the set to look so strange.Would love to see what 120hz would look like on a plasma.Does anyone know if any plasma nows has it or will in next generation?Kuros have some kind of judder control and wondered how it stacked up against the Samsung 71 120hz.

[tonydeluce]

Originally Posted by mattg3

I finally saw the Samsung 71 series LCD and the picture was very weird.Like watching a very bright home video.The one thing that stood out was all motion was so rock steady it was a shock.Wondered if this 120 hz motion control caused the set to look so strange.Would love to see what 120hz would look like on a plasma.Does anyone know if any plasma nows has it or will in next generation?Kuros have some kind of judder control and wondered how it stacked up against the Samsung 71 120hz.

Plasmas will have not obtain any advantage at 120 Hz as long as they support both 60 Hz and 72Hz now ( like the last couple of generations of Pioneer Plasmas have )...

120 Hz would not provide any additional improvement for the KUROs - there is no way to improve any further in this regard, displaying 1080p24fps by multiplying each frame 3X at 72 Hz is as good as it gets...

[mattg3]

So what you are saying is pioneer plasma is as good at motion control as any 120hz LCD?

[tonydeluce]

Originally Posted by mattg3

So what you are saying is pioneer plasma is as good at motion control as any 120hz LCD?

No, I am saying that the last two Pio generations are *better* in this regard than any 120 Hz LCD out today...

The 120 Hz for LCDs is a HUGE improvement though for fixing the LCD issue of motion blur...

[IBNobody]

Originally Posted by mattg3

So what you are saying is pioneer plasma is as good at motion control as any 120hz LCD?

I don't think plasmas have the cartoony-smooth "motion-enhanced" effects that the 120Hz LCDs have.

[brentsg]

That's the point, they overcome motion issues and also handle the 24fps video without any artifacts or negative side effects.

[Jonathan Teller]

There's also the issue that even though the LCD's may be showing 120 fps now, there's really nothing that lets you be sure that what you're getting is 24 frames shown 5 times each. Most of what I've heard has indicated that every other frame is either black or an interpolated image.

So from what I can tell, all you're really getting is a 1080p60 image, with all the usual 3:2 cadence, but there are extra frames interpolated inbetween each one. From what I've seen, that's why the picture looks strange. Now, instead of just having 3:2 judder, we're getting some kind of very odd "extra" frames thrown into the mix.

Frankly, I prefer the approach of simply showing 30 fps content or 60 fps content at 60 fps and 24 fps content at 72 fps. The idea of a native 120 fps display is good since it's divisible by all 3, but if it isn't showing 24 fps content by simply showing each frame 5 times and is instead, still using 3:2 pull-down to make a 60 fps picture first, I can't see it looking "proper"

Jon

[xb1032]

I think the poster may have been referring to how it makes the picture look 3D'ish. I agree with him it really looks weird. I heard something about 3D glasses coming out to make video games look 3D. And I think Samsung is coming out with DLPs with 120Hz for 3D gaming (I'm just spitting this out off the top of my head from hear say).

[xrox]

Originally Posted by tonydeluce

Plasmas will have not obtain any advantage at 120 Hz as long as they support both 60 Hz and 72Hz now ( like the last couple of generations of Pioneer Plasmas have )...

While this may be true for judder improvement, it is not the case for motion blurring improvement which is what 120Hz was designed for in the first place. Even though Plasma displays have less motion blurring than LCD (even 120Hz LCD), they still are not as good as the old CRTs. Reducing the display time by increasing refresh rates can also benefit plasma.

see my post in another thread.

High refresh rate plasma

[chrisherbert]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller

There's also the issue that even though the LCD's may be showing 120 fps now, there's really nothing that lets you be sure that what you're getting is 24 frames shown 5 times each. Most of what I've heard has indicated that every other frame is either black or an interpolated image.

So from what I can tell, all you're really getting is a 1080p60 image, with all the usual 3:2 cadence, but there are extra frames interpolated inbetween each one. From what I've seen, that's why the picture looks strange. Now, instead of just having 3:2 judder, we're getting some kind of very odd "extra" frames thrown into the mix.

Frankly, I prefer the approach of simply showing 30 fps content or 60 fps content at 60 fps and 24 fps content at 72 fps. The idea of a native 120 fps display is good since it's divisible by all 3, but if it isn't showing 24 fps content by simply showing each frame 5 times and is instead, still using 3:2 pull-down to make a 60 fps picture first, I can't see it looking "proper"

Jon

Inserting a black frame won't make the picture look weird, but it will lower that perceived brightness. I'd definitely prefer that to interpolated seasick vision.

[temeone]

Go watch a pioneer plasma and a 120hz LCD.. only then will you realize that LCDs can not compete in the motion department

[BWDinc]

THANK YOU!!!! I wish people would realize how much LCD's have had to improve just to get "kinda" close to plasma speed and pic quality.

[Drewbert]

Originally Posted by temeone

Go watch a pioneer plasma and a 120hz LCD.. only then will you realize that LCDs can not compete in the motion department

This is very true
120hz looks so weird!

[amesdp]

As I understand it from the marketing hype I've read, the 120 Hz LCDs are interpolating a new frame between each 60Hz frame. I guess that can be done now with a very fast video processor, but I fail to see how that helps the LCD motion-lag problem. Motion lag on LCDs is caused by the slow electrochemical reaction time of the liquid crystal medium for some range of level transitions (see for example the LCD performance charts at Tomshardware.com, which show how the response time of LCDs varies by a factor of 3x over the range of color and intensity transitions). Trying to make the LCD change faster by displaying frames twice as fast is like trying to make your beer cold faster by taking it out of the fridge and putting it back in every 5 minutes.

Not to mention that motion interpolation could introduce possible new artifacts as the video processor tries to guess how to interpolate motion between frames.

Does anyone have a link for a technical article (i.e., not marketing hype) explaining what the real benefit of using 120 Hz is for LCD designers?

[xrox]

Originally Posted by amesdp

I fail to see how that helps the LCD motion-lag problem. Motion lag on LCDs is caused by the slow electrochemical reaction time of the liquid crystal medium for some range of level transitions (see for example the LCD performance charts at Tomshardware.com, which show how the response time of LCDs varies by a factor of 3x over the range of color and intensity transitions). Trying to make the LCD change faster by displaying frames twice as fast is like trying to make your beer cold faster by taking it out of the fridge and putting it back in every 5 minutes.

The reason you are confused is because there are two reasons that LCDs blur. One is the slow response of the liquid crystals (motion lag), the other is the so called sample and hold effect related to our persistence of vision. 120Hz is not meant to help response time (motion lag). If anything it makes motion lag worse by reducing the time available to reach the proper luminence.

120Hz reduces motion blurring by reducing the "sample and hold effect" which also produces blur. By increasing the refresh rate (not related to response time) the time each frame is held on the screen is reduced by 50% which greatly improves motion perception.

Cheers