Paramount has ruined yet another title: Face/Off

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 10:24 AM

Paramount has ruined yet another movie with a horrid amount of noise reduction

Top Gun, Untouchables, Black Rain and now Face/Off

all those titles are hammered with putrid amounts of noise reduction in a attempt to rid the image of natural film grain that fan boy gamers, noobs and morons complain about on a daily basis, the only problem with that (removing grain via NR) is that you also remove all high frequency detail and you are left with a image that is mushy smeary crap with no life and no detail

Face/Off is a very very grainy movie, did I say grainy? there is not one pinch of it left on this release, it is not fit for watching on a 50" TV, try it on a 8' wide 2.40:1 screen, I feel like throwing it in the trash

a tip to Paramount, stop using NR to cater to morons, the real lovers of film and movies are what you should be worried about

-Gary

sdlehman · 11-03-07, 10:35 AM

Gary,

I will not dispute the no grain issue with you as I have no credentials as a reviewer. Nor do I have a super high-end setup like yours. However, I just watched this movie on Thursday night and thought it looked fantastic for its age. Does that make me a stupid moron? I surely don't mean to be if it does. This was on a 120" diagonal screen at about 11 feet seating distance. I will watch it again paying special attention to the noise reduction to see if I notice the same thing as you.

While you may take issue with Paramount, you also indict all those who may not have as refined tastes as you.

Stace

bcolon · 11-03-07, 10:36 AM

Don't throw it away, I'll take it.

FrancescoP · 11-03-07, 10:37 AM

It will be useful to make a list of the HD DVD movies with too much noise reduction applied.

Can you make it, Gary? Maybe we can add the info to the Official PQ Reference Thread.

P.S.
Not only Paramount titles are affected... The Last Starfighter, for example, is totally destroyed by noise reduction.

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 10:37 AM

the only morons I am speaking about are those actively seeking removal of film grain

-Gary

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrancescoP

It will be useful to make a list of the HD DVD movies with too much noise reduction applied.

Can you make it Gary? Maybe we can add the info to the Official PQ Thread.

P.S.
Not only Paramount titles are affected... The Last Starfighter, for example, is totally destroyed by noise reduction.

I have no problem helping with that, Paramount is heading down a disturbing road with catalog releases and NR, Top Gun and Face/Off are so bad...

-Gary

ryoohki · 11-03-07, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

the only morons I am speaking about are those actively seeking removal of film grain

-Gary

I'am pretty sure that CE does the following

- Get the Print
- Make a 1080p master and DNR it (mostly for DVD)
- Release it on DVD
- Release in on HDM

and Voila...

They did that for Robocop on BD also... (MGM)

FrancescoP · 11-03-07, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

I have no problem helping with that, Paramount is heading down a disturbing road with catalog releases and NR, Top Gun and Face/Off are so bad...

-Gary

Yeah, we need to make clear to the studios that we, the consumers, are very AWARE of the trick, and that we do not want it used.

b.greenway · 11-03-07, 10:46 AM

Seriously doubt the title is "ruined" this particular release notwithstanding.

5thDanMaster · 11-03-07, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

Paramount has ruined yet another movie with a horrid amount of noise reduction

Top Gun, Untouchables, Black Rain and now Face/Off

all those titles are hammered with putrid amounts of noise reduction in a attempt to rid the image of natural film grain that fan boy gamers, noobs and morons complain about on a daily basis, the only problem with that (removing grain via NR) is that you also remove all high frequency detail and you are left with a image that is mushy smeary crap with no life and no detail

Face/Off is a very very grainy movie, did I say grainy? there is not one pinch of it left on this release, it is not fit for watching on a 50" TV, try it on a 8' wide 2.40:1 screen, I feel like throwing it in the trash

a tip to Paramount, stop using NR to cater to morons, the real lovers of film and movies are what you should be worried about

-Gary

I agree completely!

You don't have to put up with that garbage!!!

PM me with instructions on how to get it from you. I will be more than happy to discard it properly for you. I am only here to help.

Johannes S · 11-03-07, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

Paramount has ruined yet another movie with a horrid amount of noise reduction

Top Gun, Untouchables, Black Rain and now Face/Off

all those titles are hammered with putrid amounts of noise reduction in a attempt to rid the image of natural film grain that fan boy gamers, noobs and morons complain about on a daily basislovers of film and movies are what you should be worried about

-Gary

Hi Gary,

I am 100% in agreement with you.

As you are a reviewer on HTF, just check my thread on "Rio Bravo".

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=257241

Not a single user supported my point of view then. Frustrating!

Drewbert · 11-03-07, 11:03 AM

So I would guess that the blu-ray version is the same way? I was going to order it soon...

LiquidX · 11-03-07, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbert

So I would guess that the blu-ray version is the same way? I was going to order it soon...

I hope you're being sarcastic.

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes S

Hi Gary,

I am 100% in agreement with you.

As you are a reviewer on HTF, just check my thread on "Rio Bravo".

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=257241

Not a single user supported my point of view then. Frustrating!

thanks Jo, I will check it out, I don't own Rio but will grab it, you should be a film reviewer, I love your comments

I also wanted to add to the discussion that this title also has a pretty bad y/c delay problem, for those that have the ability, about -13 on the DVDO scalers(VP50/VP50pro etc.) will correct that

Face/Off is without a doubt the worst HD-DVD I own and have seen in regards to NR, this film would have looked so good, it is a shame

-Gary

koreanfilmfan · 11-03-07, 11:09 AM

I think the Blu-ray release is grainier, am I wrong?

ILJG · 11-03-07, 11:09 AM

Yet another thread that should have "In my opinion..." tacked onto the front of its title.

I haven't viewed this disc, so I can't give an opinion on its quality, I'm just a little frustrated with all these opinion/editioral threads trying to pass themselves off as factual.

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbert

So I would guess that the blu-ray version is the same way? I was going to order it soon...

those that have seen both say no way, the Japan version is much better

can someone tell me what the point of HD is without HD quality details? maybe I am confused

-Gary

MSmith83 · 11-03-07, 11:11 AM

The DNR can be really bad, but only in a few sequences. The vast majority of this HD DVD looks really good. The Untouchables is much, much worse in this regard.

Paramount does need to immediately stop using these filtering techniques, however, as it has reared its ugly head on quite a few of their catalog releases. Professional reviewers also need to be more understanding of this problem, as I haven't seen one mention of this in the vast majority of professional reviews.

YONEXSP · 11-03-07, 11:12 AM

Knowing Gary's views from the CRT forum, take them for what they are. He knows his stuff, but is No Offence Gary, Gary is a Perfectionist to the point of extreme.

So what maybe a small thing for 99.9% of us if we even notice, is a chicken Little moment for Gary. That's not altogether a bad thing, as folks like Gary help identify any fine tuning problems for this hobby.

But your post was a little strong, and perhaps a little to in your face with all the Red smilies etc IMHO.

paxi · 11-03-07, 11:12 AM

Gary while I completely respect your opinion, I don't get why you don't add to one of the several Face Off threads already going. Seems you wanted to stir things up with your thread title

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILJG

Yet another thread that should have "In my opinion..." tacked onto the front of its title.

I haven't viewed this disc, so I can't give an opinion on its quality, I'm just a little frustrated with all these opinion/editioral threads trying to pass themselves off as factual.

the NR on this release is quite factual, the instant thing that tips it off is smeary mushy faces, that and not one hint of film grain, all film whether stylized or not has film grain, HD has so much picture detail and high frequency info that you can see a very fine veil of film grain on any film that hasn't been altered and on a display capable enough to show it

-Gary

MovieSwede · 11-03-07, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koreanfilmfan

I think the Blu-ray release is grainier, am I wrong?

Well I asumed that both comes from a crappy source but that disney added sharpening to the movie (that can give noise not grain)

So I tested adding sharpening to the HD version but it didnt create grain, but I did saw "grain" when i resaved it as a jpg instead of a PNG.

They had a really crappy master for this one.

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxi

Gary while I completely respect your opinion, I don't get why you don't add to one of the several Face Off threads already going. Seems you wanted to stir things up with your thread title

I didn't see any face/off review threads, only ones praising it

-Gary

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSmith83

The DNR can be really bad, but only in a few sequences. The vast majority of this HD DVD looks really good. The Untouchables is much, much worse in this regard.

Paramount does need to immediately stop using these filtering techniques, however, as it has reared its ugly head on quite a few of their catalog releases. Professional reviewers also need to be more privy of this problem, as I haven't seen one mention of this in the vast majority of professional reviews.

I have never encountered a review title so far for the HTF that has had NR applied(around 25 so far), you can bet the farm I will drop the hammer on the first one I get that does, there is no excuss for this crap

Paramount should look at their own Tomb Raider release, not one hint of NR, when they first entered the game they were top shelf

I should also add Trading Places to the NR list, it is now a common thread with them, I have been dying to get the Jack Ryan set but maybe I shouldn't be

-Gary

MSmith83 · 11-03-07, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

Face/Off is without a doubt the worst HD-DVD I own and have seen in regards to NR, this film would have looked so good, it is a shame

-Gary

You really think this is worse than The Untouchables? Have you watched the entire HD DVD of Face/Off? The heavy filtering was pretty much constant with The Untouchables, which was certainly not the case here.

paxi · 11-03-07, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

I didn't see any face/off review threads, only ones praising it

-Gary

very witty, but the self importance grows weary. Congrats on the 10 page thread - said my peace!

ILJG · 11-03-07, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

the NR on this release is quite factual, the instant thing that tips it off is smeary mushy faces, that and not one hint of film grain, all film whether stylized or not has film grain, HD has so much picture detail and high frequency info that you can see a very fine veil of film grain on any film that hasn't been altered and on a display capable enough to show it

-Gary

Ah, the usual "I'm right, and have the display to prove it, and it's a fact." You can use really technical terms like "smeary" and "mushy" in (what you think is) helping your argument, when in reality, it sounds pretty silly.

Not the first time you've disagreed with opinions (popular or otherwise) with other reviewers for the sake of attention, I doubt this will be the last.

I'll rent the title from Netflix. While I'm sure my 1080p24 50" Pioneer Elite plasma is completely inadequate to do any kind of meaningful review, I think I'll take a look for myself. If I can use your advanced terminology, though, I hope it doesn't look too "icky" or "yucky."

rveras · 11-03-07, 11:31 AM

How do we know if the director, John Woo, approved or wanted the grain to be removed? Keep in mind that film grain although natural is not always desired by the director. My opinion is that if the director wanted the movie to look grainy it would have been release that way. Of course we don't know if Paramount asked for John Woo's approval for this release but been a Special Edition release the odds are very likely.

Gary Murrell · 11-03-07, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILJG

Not the first time you've disagreed with opinions (popular or otherwise) with other reviewers for the sake of attention, I doubt this will be the last.

yep thats why I am reviewer for the HTF, I need attention

this thread is about Face/Off and the horrid NR, not me, so try again bro

-Gary

grodd · 11-03-07, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

I didn't see any face/off review threads, only ones praising it

-Gary

I agree I don't understand what's wrong with these people. I see no mention of DNR in the reviews.

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Gary Murrell Yngwie's Biggest Fan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 10,800 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	Paramount has ruined yet another title: Face/Off Paramount has ruined yet another movie with a horrid amount of noise reduction Top Gun, Untouchables, Black Rain and now Face/Off all those titles are hammered with putrid amounts of noise reduction in a attempt to rid the image of natural film grain that fan boy gamers, noobs and morons complain about on a daily basis, the only problem with that (removing grain via NR) is that you also remove all high frequency detail and you are left with a image that is mushy smeary crap with no life and no detail Face/Off is a very very grainy movie, did I say grainy? there is not one pinch of it left on this release, it is not fit for watching on a 50" TV, try it on a 8' wide 2.40:1 screen, I feel like throwing it in the trash a tip to Paramount, stop using NR to cater to morons, the real lovers of film and movies are what you should be worried about -Gary __________________ Gary's HT/Review System

11-03-07, 10:35 AM	#2 \| Link
sdlehman Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St. Charles, Missouri Posts: 737	Gary, I will not dispute the no grain issue with you as I have no credentials as a reviewer. Nor do I have a super high-end setup like yours. However, I just watched this movie on Thursday night and thought it looked fantastic for its age. Does that make me a stupid moron? I surely don't mean to be if it does. This was on a 120" diagonal screen at about 11 feet seating distance. I will watch it again paying special attention to the noise reduction to see if I notice the same thing as you. While you may take issue with Paramount, you also indict all those who may not have as refined tastes as you. Stace __________________ My DVD Collection

11-03-07, 10:37 AM	#4 \| Link
FrancescoP AVS Special Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,174	It will be useful to make a list of the HD DVD movies with too much noise reduction applied. Can you make it, Gary? Maybe we can add the info to the Official PQ Reference Thread. P.S. Not only Paramount titles are affected... The Last Starfighter, for example, is totally destroyed by noise reduction. __________________ The HD DVD User's PQ & AQ Reference Thread \| DUTest Screenshots Thread for HD DVD and Blu-Ray

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Gary Murrell Yngwie's Biggest Fan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 10,800 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	the only morons I am speaking about are those actively seeking removal of film grain -Gary __________________ Gary's HT/Review System

11-03-07, 10:46 AM	#9 \| Link
b.greenway AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,324	Seriously doubt the title is "ruined" this particular release notwithstanding. __________________ My Home Theater Updates on Twitter

11-03-07, 10:36 AM	#3 \| Link
bcolon Cowher Power Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Perrysburg, Ohio Posts: 91	Don't throw it away, I'll take it.

11-03-07, 11:03 AM	#12 \| Link
Drewbert Missing my sanity Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Houston Posts: 393	So I would guess that the blu-ray version is the same way? I was going to order it soon... __________________ Drew

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koreanfilmfan Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 70	I think the Blu-ray release is grainier, am I wrong?

11-03-07, 11:09 AM	#16 \| Link
ILJG AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CT, USA Posts: 1,382	Yet another thread that should have "In my opinion..." tacked onto the front of its title. I haven't viewed this disc, so I can't give an opinion on its quality, I'm just a little frustrated with all these opinion/editioral threads trying to pass themselves off as factual. __________________ ************************************************* Still looking for a movie theatre that shows movies the way they're SUPPOSED to be viewed... ...with a bitrate meter and screencaps.

11-03-07, 11:11 AM	#18 \| Link
MSmith83 AVS Special Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,317	The DNR can be really bad, but only in a few sequences. The vast majority of this HD DVD looks really good. The Untouchables is much, much worse in this regard. Paramount does need to immediately stop using these filtering techniques, however, as it has reared its ugly head on quite a few of their catalog releases. Professional reviewers also need to be more understanding of this problem, as I haven't seen one mention of this in the vast majority of professional reviews. Last edited by MSmith83; 11-03-07 at 11:17 AM..

11-03-07, 11:12 AM	#19 \| Link
YONEXSP AVS Special Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada Posts: 2,353	Knowing Gary's views from the CRT forum, take them for what they are. He knows his stuff, but is No Offence Gary, Gary is a Perfectionist to the point of extreme. So what maybe a small thing for 99.9% of us if we even notice, is a chicken Little moment for Gary. That's not altogether a bad thing, as folks like Gary help identify any fine tuning problems for this hobby. But your post was a little strong, and perhaps a little to in your face with all the Red smilies etc IMHO.

11-03-07, 11:12 AM	#20 \| Link
paxi Advanced Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 514	Gary while I completely respect your opinion, I don't get why you don't add to one of the several Face Off threads already going. Seems you wanted to stir things up with your thread title

11-03-07, 11:31 AM	#28 \| Link
rveras AVS Special Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Haverhill, MA Posts: 1,728	How do we know if the director, John Woo, approved or wanted the grain to be removed? Keep in mind that film grain although natural is not always desired by the director. My opinion is that if the director wanted the movie to look grainy it would have been release that way. Of course we don't know if Paramount asked for John Woo's approval for this release but been a Special Edition release the odds are very likely.