FAQ: HD DVD & HD Audio Content

namechamps · 12-18-07, 12:19 AM

What Audio formats are available on HD DVD?
Dolby Digital (DD): Legacy Audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 504Kbps. Not commonly used on HD DVD due to higher bitrate available on the mandatory DD+.

DTS: Legacy Audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 1.5Mbps. Somewhat uncommon on HD DVD.

Dolby Digital Plus (DD+): New lossy audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 3.0Mbps. Most HD DVD contain either a 640K or 1.5Mbps as the primary or backup track. The most common audio format on HD DVD.

DTS-HD High Resolution: New lossy audio format from DTS. Maximum bitrate of 3.0Mpbs. Decoder is optional and is not present on any HD DVD players but is found on some HDMI v1.3 receivers. Very rare on HD DVD titles likely due to lack of required decoder. Format contains a 1.5Mbps DTS core track for legacy receivers.

LPCM (Linear Pulse Code Modulation): An uncompressed audio track that features up to 192KHz/24bit resolution in stereo or 96KHz/24bit in multichannel (up to 8 channels). No decoder is necessary as the format is already uncompressed on the disc. All digital audio formats are decoded to LPCM before applying DSP logic or converting to analog. Format is rather uncommon because lossless formats can store audio of the same quality with space and bandwidth requirements roughly half that of LPCM.

Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio (DTS-HD MA): Both formats losslessly compressed LPCM to save space and bandwidth. The term lossless indicates the original audio stream can be reconstructed without any loss of quality or resolution. The lossless formats would be analogous to file compression formats on computers such as winzip or rar which allow files to be compressed for download and be reconstructed bit for bit. Both formats offer decoding up to 18.0Mbps and can recreate 8 channels @ 96Khz/24bit. The bitrate will vary depending on the bitdepth and sample rate of the original as well as the complexity of the track. The formats will always be bit for bit identical to the original source. Due to their nature neither format can use more or less bandwidth than what is required for that track. DTS-HD MA offers a lossy 1.5Mbps DTS core however decoder support is optional and not found on any HD DVD player.

Which formats are HD DVD players required to decode?
HD DVD players are required to have decoder support for DD (legacy), DTS (legacy), DD+, and Dolby TrueHD. Only stereo (2 channel) support is required for Dolby TrueHD however all standalone players released to date support multichannel channel decoding.

No decoder is necessary for LPCM as it is stored uncompressed on the disc. All HD DVD players must support outputting up to 2 channels @ 192Khz/24bit and 8 channels @ 96Khz/24bit.

Decoder support for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA is optional in the HD DVD spec. No HD DVD player supports decoding these formats internally. The HD-XA2, HD-A35, and DV-HD805 support bitstreaming the audio via HDMI v1.3 to a receiver capable of decoding the format.

How can I connect my HD DVD player to my receiver?
There are 4 methods to connect an HD DVD player to your receiver however not all methods are available on all players.

Method 1: Legacy S/PDIF (Digital Out)
Players Supported: All HD DVD players
Receivers Supported: Virtually all receivers with optical s/pdif connection
Cable Required: Toslink (optical s/pdif cable)
Decoder used: Player (then encoded to 640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS)
DAC used: Receiver (Player's DAC are bypassed)

For player/receiver combinations lacking another transport method this provides legacy support at the expense of reduced audio quality. The Digital Out connection lacks support for modern codecs (DD+, DTS-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) and it also lacks bandwidth for more than 2 channel LPCM. The player can either output the raw 2 channel (stereo) LPCM over toslink or encode it to a multichannel bitstream. The player will encode the PCM as either 640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS depending on the player or track. SD DVD are always passed as original bitstream on the disc.

The sound quality can never exceed the transport limit (640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS) regardless of the track being output. Even this is an improvement over standard DVD which is limited to 448Kbps DD and 1.5Mbps DTS (>768Kbps very uncommon). This connection should only be used if there is no other connection available.

Method 2: Analog Out -> Analog In
Players Supported: HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2, HD-A35 only
Receivers Supported: Any Receiver with 6 (or 8) channel analog in
Cable Required: 6 RCA Audio cables
Decoder Used: Player
DAC Used: Player (Receiver DAC may be bypassed)

This method on higher end HD DVD players provides support for full resolution audio. The track is decoded internally in the player and then converted to analog using the player's DAC (Digital Analog Converters). The analog waveform is sent via the 6 RCA cables to the receiver's analog in. The player can only decode formats that the player is capable of decoding. To date no players have internal support for DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA decoding. Sound quality will be limited to the capabilities of the DAC in the player.

One potential issue with this method is that the DSP in receivers that apply matrixing, bass management, room shaping, and crossovers can only affect a digital signal. Some receivers may bypass all logic and send audio to amplifier this requires that all logic be set with the minimal set of options in HD DVD player. Some receivers will use an ADC (Analog Digital Converter) to turn the analog back into a digital form, apply logic and then convert back to analog. This double conversion to analog can cause a loss of quality. Some receivers may have an option to select the method used (bypass or ADC). This connection should be used if your receiver does not support HDMI audio but has a multi channel analog in.

Method 3: HDMI v1.1 (LPCM Output)
Players Supported: All HD DVD Players
Receivers Supported: All receivers that can process a LPCM signal from HDMI
Cable Required: 1 HDMI cable
Decoder Used: Player
DAC Used: Receiver

HDMI allows the transmission of high resolution LPCM audio. The player decodes the track internally to LPCM and outputs via HDMI. The receiver applies any DSP logic and the receiver DAC is used to convert the signal to analog. Some older receivers are just HDMI passthrough, they cannot extract or process audio from the HDMI cable. When buying an HDMI1.1 receiver ensure it is able to process LPCM input over the HDMI source.

When using this method your receiver will not display DD+ or TrueHD it will display LPCM, Multichannel PCM, 48/24 PCM or something similar. The sound quality is the same however this is a common source of confusion since the receiver does not indicate the audio track. The audio is being decoding in the player. By the time it reaches the player it is already LPCM so the receiver is reporting that is is receiving LPCM. The audio is being converted to analog in the receiver. The decoding of audio bitstream to LPCM should be identical regardless of where the decoding occurs. There have been no double blind tests that indicate decoding in the receiver vs. player results in superior audio quality. If you receiver supports HDMI generally either this method or method #4 is preferred over 6 channel analog or S/PDIF.

Method 4: HDMI v1.3 (bitstream output)
Players Supported: HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805
Receivers Supported: HDMI v1.3 receiver capable of decoding proper audio format
Cable Required: 1 HDMI cable
Decoder Used: Receiver
DAC Used: Receiver

HDMI v1.3 allows the transport of the bitstream or original compressed audio format. This allows the audio to be decoded by the receiver instead of the player. While this offers no proven sound quality improvement it does provide some flexibility. No HD DVD player to date supports decoding DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA. With HDMI v1.3 the compressed bitstream can be sent to the receiver and decoded. The elusive TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD icon will also light up on the receiver display. Since most HDMI v1.3 receivers support decoding of all audio formats, a compatible receiver guarantees playback of all discs (HD DVD and BD) regardless of the codec being used as long as the player is HDMI v1.3 and capable of bitstream output.

To enable bitstream output on a compatible player bring up the Setup Menu > Audio > Digital Direct Audio Mode = On and Digital Out HDMI = Auto. The player's internal decoder and mixer are bypassed and the raw audio from the disc is sent to the receiver. Since the mixer is bypassed only the main audio track will be heard. Secondary audio tracks (IME or commentary tracks) and menu sounds will not be heard. The Direct Digital Audio Mode can be turned off to enable LPCM output (method #3) and gain access to secondary audio tracks from the player setup menu.

This method bypasses the player's decoder and mixer which may avoid some SQ issues caused by incorrect settings applied to mixer (see 96KHz output).

If I have my player connected by SPDIF optical out (method #1) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks?
For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be transcoded to Dolby Digital @640K or DTS @ 1.5Mbps. This is due to limitation on the SPDIF (optical) connection. You will hear the movie however the sound quality will be reduced. The sound quality is still superior to SD DVD which are generally 448K DD or 768K DTS.

No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core" and output it via SPDIF. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track.

If I have my player connected by analog out (method #2) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks?
For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be decoded in the player and output via the 6 channel analog out. You will not be able to output 6.1 and 7.1 tracks as 7 or 8 discrete channels. The player will still extract the 6 channels (5.1) and output that portion of the track.

No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core, decode, and output the "core" via the 6 channel output. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track.

If I have my player connected by HDMI - LPCM (method #3) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks?
For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be decoded in the player and output as LPCM via the HDMI link. You receiver will likely display this as "Multi PCM", "Multichannel PCM", or just "Multichannel".

No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core, decode, and output the "core" via the 6 channel output. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track. If your player & receiver are bitstream compatible you can set the player to [Direct Digital Audio Output] = Yes to bitstream the raw audio to the receiver for decoding. See method #4 above for more information.

If I have my player connected by HDMI - Bitstream (method #4) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks?
Yes your player will bitstream the raw audio from the disc to a compatible receiver. The receiver must support decoding of the proper format. Generally HDMI v1.3 receivers support decoding of all 4 new codecs (DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA). You must have a bitstream compatible player and receiver. The player must be in bitstream mode ([Digital Out HDMI] = Auto & [Direct Digital Audio Out] = On). You will not hear any menu sounds or secondary (IME or commentary) tracks.

Are there any HD DVD players with 7.1 channel analog out?
No. At this time the only players with analog out (HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2, HD-35, DV-HD805) have 6 channel (5.1) analog out. The only way to pass discrete 7.1 audio would be by an HDMI connection; either internally decoded with HDMI v1.1 or bitstream with HDMI v1.3). All players have the ability to output 7.1 PCM over HDMI. All bitstream capable players can bitstream 7.1 channel tracks.

Are there any HD DVD titles with 7.1 audio tracks?
At this point the only confirmed HD DVD with 7.1 audio are "Der Geist Von Mae Nak" and "Pan's Labyrinth" which have a DTS-HD MA 7.1 track. Since no HD DVD player can internally decode DTS-HD MA playback of the DTS-HD MA track would require a bitstream (HDMI v1.3) capable player and receiver.

Is the "core" of a 7.1 channel DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA track 5.1 or 7.1 channels?
The core of a DTS-HD track is always a 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 track. Regardless of the number of channels or bitrate of the DTS-HD track the core will always be a legacy 5.1 DTS track @ 1.5Mbps. This allows maximum compatibility with legacy DTS decoders. If your player does not support bitstream of the DTS-HD track then the core will be extracted.

What happens if I play a DTS-HD track on a player that does not have support for DTS-HD decoding?
DTS-HD decoding is optional and currently no HD DVD player has support for internal DTS-HD decoder. If a capable player is in bitstream mode it can bitstream the DTS-HD track to a compatible receiver. All other players will extract the lossy DTS "core" from the track. The core is a 5.1 DTS track encoded @ 1.5Mbps.

Are there any HD DVD players with coax digital out?
All HD DVD players have optical digital output but only a few have coaxial outputs. The HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2 have both optical and coax digital output however they have been discontinued and are increasingly difficult to locate at retail. The Onkyo DV-HD805 has both optical and coaxial digital outputs, however it substantial more expensive than other HD DVD players ($799 MSRP).

There is a cheaper option to convert from optical to coaxial. An optical to coaxial digital converter can pass optical signals to a coaxial input. Both physical connections use the same S/PDIF spec so there is no alteration of the digital data. Converters are available from a variety of sources and cost about $20-$50. Ensure you get a optical -> coaxial converter as most are one way devices.

What is the difference between decoding and converting (digital to analog conversion)?
Audio formats are traditionally compressed to save space and bandwidth. Decoding takes a compressed audio format (DD+, TrueHD, DTS) and unpacks it to LPCM (Linear PCM). Decoding is a 100% digital process and is essentially a math equation. A compressed source is unpacked according to a formula to produce full resolution audio in the form of LPCM. This step is necessary because the DSP (digital signal processors) which apply logic (bass management, cross over settings, room shaping) are designed to manipulate LPCM. The DACs (digital to analog converter) in a receiver, player or HDTV take LPCM as their input.

A separate step which is often confused with decoding is the conversion of a digital signal to an analog waveform suitable for amplification and output. Players, receivers, and HDTVs with speakers need to convert digital signals to an analog waveform which can be amplified and used to drive speakers. The component that converts digital signals to an analog electrical signal is a Digital to Analog Converter (DAC). The quality of the DAC will determine how accurate the digital signal is converted to analog. Often the DAC in a AV Receiver is superior to the DAC in other equipment including HD DVD players so it is preferred to have the conversion to analog occur in the device with best DAC.

If a player is outputting a Digital signal via HDMI or S/PDIF the DAC in the player is not used. DACs are only used in the conversion of digital -> analog. The only time the DAC in the player is used is when the analog outs (stereo or multichannel) on the HD DVD player are used.

Why doesn't the TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD, or DTS-HD MA icon light up on my receiver?
Likely you receiver is not receiving the TrueHD, DD+, or DTS-HD bitstream. This does not necessarily mean you are not getting HD audio. There are two methods of transporting HD audio over an HDMI link (see method 3 and method 4 above).

Using HDMI v1.1 LPCM output the player will decode the bitstream from the disc to LPCM. It is important to remember that decoding is a 100% digital process. The player will then output the LPCM via HDMI to the receiver. The receiver is getting the full resolution audio it just has already been decoded to LPCM so from the receiver's "point of view" it is receiving LPCM. The player will display LPCM, Multichannel PCM, PCM 48/24 or something similar.

Using HDMI v1.3 Bitstream output the player will take the compressed bitstream and send it to the receiver. The receiver will decode the bitstream to LPCM internally. In this case the receiver's input light will display the format being decoded. To bitstream HD audio requires an HDMI v1.3 player (HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805) and an HDMI v1.3 receiver that is capable of decoding the format selected.

In both cases the bitstream is decoded to the same LPCM first (in the player for LPCM, in the receiver for bitstream). In both cases the receiver's DAC will be used to convert to analog. There have been no double blind tests to show decoding in the receiver results in superior sound. The biggest advantage of bitstream is that no HD DVD player has the ability to decode DTS-HD HR and DTS-HD MA tracks internally. These tracks can be streamed to a capable receiver for decoding.

I just purchased a disc with DTS-HD (or DTS-HD MA) am I getting the full HD audio?
You must bitstream the track to your compatible receiver to get the full HD audio track. No HD DVD player can decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA tracks internally. The player will extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 core which is the same format found on SD DVD and output it to your receiver.

The only method to get the full DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA track is to bitstream it to a compatible receiver (see method 4 above). The only players capable of bitstream are the HD-XA2, HD-A35, and DV-HD805. In addition to a bitstream capable player you will need an HDMI v1.3 receiver that has support for decoding DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA.

What are the difference between the HD players in terms of audio outputs?
All HD DVD players have:

HDMI output (capable of 8 channel LPCM).
Stereo Output (L/R RCA jacks)
S/PDIF Optical Output (toslink)

All HD DVD players can internally decode:

DD (legacy)
DTS (legacy)
DD+
TrueHD (spec only requires 2 channel but all players are multichannel capable)

No HD DVD player can decode:

DTS-HD High Resolution Audio (all players can extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 "core")
DTS-HD Master Audio (all players can extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 "core")

The HD-A35, HD-XA2, DV-HD805 add or upgrade the following outputs:

6 channel analog out
S/PDIF coaxial output in addition to S/PDIF optical output - (HD-XA2, DV-HD805 only)
HDMI v1.3 output (capable of bitstream or LPCM output)

No HD DVD player can internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA tracks.
Even the bitstream capable players (HD-A35, HD-XA2, DV-HD805) can NOT decode DTS-HD. The bitstream players only transfer the raw bitstream to a compatible receiver.

Why can't I hear PIP/IME secondary audio or menu sounds?
When a bitstream capable player (HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805) is in bitstream mode (Digital Direct Audio=On) the player's internal decoder and mixer is bypassed. The player is outputting the raw track bitstream from the disc. The HDMI v1.3 spec does not allow more than one audio stream to be output. To hear IME or menu sounds you will need to disabled Digital Direct Audio (bitstream) from the player's Setup Menu. This will allow the player to mix the multiple audio tracks and menu sounds. The player will output the audio as LPCM over the HDMI link.

HDMI Audio has low LFE level and receiver input shows as 96KHz however the title is only 48KHz. What is going on?
The Toshiba mixer is altering the sampling rate of the track. The SPDIF setting in player setup switches the output from 48KHz to 96KHz even when using HDMI output instead of SPDIF. On some receivers this results in very low LFE levels. The DSP in the Toshiba players do not have enough power to handled 96KHz encoding for SPDIF output so when SPDIF is set to bitstream output is 48KHz, otherwise it is 96KHz. There is no reason to alter the sampling rate of a track inside the mixer. A 48KHz track upsampled to 96KHz will not contain any more information than the original 48KHz source. The process is not lossless and may introduce transient noise into the mix. To ensure the source is output at the original sampling rate the following settings are recommended.

48KHz source: Set "Digital Out SPDIF" = "Bitstream" for 48KHz output over HDMI.
96KHz source: Set "Digital Out SPDIF" = "PCM" for 96KHz output over HDMI.

Virtually all movies are 48KHz sources. If the title is not marked it likely is 48KHz. In my opinion this is a bug although there has been no confirmation by Toshiba. It is not logical or user friendly that the SPDIF setting alters the HDMI output. Hopefully Toshiba either fixes the issue in a firmware update or introduces another option to lock output sampling rate to the input sampling rate. Players affected: HD-A2, HD-A3, HD-A35 (likely affects all Toshiba players but the models listed have been confirmed). This issue does not affect bitstream (method #4) output and is an example of what direct output is preferred by some users.

Diagrams are copyright 2007 Dolby Laboratories Inc. The HDMI v1.3 diagram was modified by me because Dolby has the incorrect caption. No wonder consumers are confused if even Dolby doesn't get it right.

namechamps · 12-18-07, 12:19 AM

Reserved

namechamps · 12-18-07, 12:20 AM

Reserved More Space

bobgpsr · 12-18-07, 10:10 AM

DTS uses the term DTS-HD HRA (High Resolution Audio) for the new DTS lossy codec.

The XA2 (and IIRC the A20, A3, A30, A35) will re-encode to 1.5Mbps DTS for S/PDIF output if the user selects any type of DTS encoded track or a LPCM track on the title. It re-encodes to 640kbps DD if the user selects any type of Dolby encoded track (DD, DD+, TrueHD) on the title.

namechamps · 12-18-07, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobgpsr

DTS uses the term DTS-HD HRA (High Resolution Audio) for the new DTS lossy codec.

Thanks I will update the post.

Anyone know the best way to alert mods to move the thread?
The report post button says only to use for inappropriate posts.

Quote:

The XA2 (and IIRC the A20, A3, A30, A35) will re-encode to 1.5Mbps DTS for S/PDIF output if the user selects any type of DTS encoded track or a LPCM track on the title. It re-encodes to 640kbps DD if the user selects any type of Dolby encoded track (DD, DD+, TrueHD) on the title.

Can anyone else confirm one way or the other. It was my understanding there were some differences between the A-2 series and A-3 series when it comes to legacy encoding.

shabre · 12-18-07, 06:59 PM

very good post starting here! Excellent for the newbies to the HD market. Thank you for all your time and effort puting this together :0
I am not a newbie, but for those that are, this will provide many answers/solutions to there questions!

takisot · 12-19-07, 03:05 AM

Great effort, thanks a lot!

mosman22 · 12-19-07, 03:12 AM

Hopefully this can help clean up all the audio questions that can derail threads, although i am not going to hold my breath. This is a great resource for HD DVD newbies who are confused by these new codecs. Kudos, on all the time and effort that went into this great resource.

PooperScooper · 12-19-07, 07:33 AM

Member efforts are always appreciated. Before you get too involved, here's an observation that may save you a lot of effort.

People have spent a lot of time making FAQs and we make them stickies. However, most people don't read them. Heck, people don't look on the first page or stickies for the exact same topic before creating a new thread! They're too lazy and want _their_ exact problem solved now.

That being said, there are some people who do read FAQs and do appreciate them - especially the AVS moderators. I just didn't want anyone get put in a lot of effort only to possibly be discouraged when it appears people don't read them.

If you are going to continue to update the FAQ, I'll make it a sticky and we'll see what happens. Ideally when threads are created which already have been answered in the FAQ somebody well reply "see FAQ in the stickies" and that we be it for the thread.

Thanks for any effort.

larry

namechamps · 12-19-07, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooperScooper

Member efforts are always appreciated. Before you get too involved, here's an observation that may save you a lot of effort.

People have spent a lot of time making FAQs and we make them stickies. However, most people don't read them. Heck, people don't look on the first page or stickies for the exact same topic before creating a new thread! They're too lazy and want _their_ exact problem solved now.

That being said, there are some people who do read FAQs and do appreciate them - especially the AVS moderators. I just didn't want anyone get put in a lot of effort only to possibly be discouraged when it appears people don't read them.

If you are going to continue to update the FAQ, I'll make it a sticky and we'll see what happens. Ideally when threads are created which already have been answered in the FAQ somebody well reply "see FAQ in the stickies" and that we be it for the thread.

Thanks for any effort.

larry

I understand that most may not read the FAQ. Just as most people in receiver forum ask questions that are answered by their manual. I do agree it can be useful to say "see the FAQ" and the person reading the FAQ will get the complete answer not just a one liner. While in the FAQ they may learn something else. So while people may still post other questions they make get the complete answer a lot quicker.

Reason I am doing this is that the AVS has helped me out in just about every new AV purchased I have made and I would like to give something back. The fact that work right now it is painfully slow and I could use something to keep me awake has nothing to do with it

. I will update a couple more questions tonight.

PooperScooper · 12-19-07, 11:29 AM

Ok, cool, thanks for the effort. I'll make it a sticky and we'll see what happens. Hopefully others can contribute/critique and you can update the main page.

larry

bobgpsr · 12-19-07, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namechamps

It was my understanding there were some differences between the A-2 series and A-3 series when it comes to legacy encoding.

I am not saying that the A2 does anything but legacy DTS for the re-encode to S/PDIF. All the first gen models also only do DTS re-encode for S/PDIF bitstream. I have a XA1 in one of my systems.

It was with the intro of the XA2 that the new variable behaviour (dependent on the source audio track selected) was noticed. I personally tested and know what my XA2 does. Others have posted that the A20, A3, A30 & A35 also behave the same.

namechamps · 12-19-07, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobgpsr

I am not saying that the A2 does anything but legacy DTS for the re-encode to S/PDIF. All the first gen models also only do DTS re-encode for S/PDIF bitstream. I have a XA1 in one of my systems.

It was with the intro of the XA2 that the new variable behaviour (dependent on the source audio track selected) was noticed. I personally tested and know what my XA2 does. Others have posted that the A20, A3, A30 & A35 also behave the same.

Ok before I update first post let me make sure I get this straight:
HD-A1: All formats encoded as DTS 1.5Mbps on spdif
HD-xA1: All formats encoded as DTS 1.5Mbps on spdif

HD-A2: ??? same as HD-1 series?
HD-A20: ??? sames as HD-1 series?
HD-XA2: Dolby formats encoded as 640K Dolby - others as DTS 1.5Mbps

HD-A3: Dolby formats encoded as 640K Dolby - others as DTS 1.5Mbps
HD-A30: Dolby formats encoded as 640K Dolby - others as DTS 1.5Mbps
HD-A35: Dolby formats encoded as 640K Dolby - others as DTS 1.5Mbps

Onkyo HD-DV805: Dolby formats encoded as 640K Dolby - others as DTS 1.5Mbps

Is this correct? If so I will update the FAQ (likely create a seperate QA because it is somewhat confusing). If not let me know where I still got it wrong.

trpltongue · 12-19-07, 04:15 PM

Thanks a lot!

This has been a great read for me. I was totally lost on format requirements etc and this is exactly what I needed to see.

Andy Pennell · 12-19-07, 07:32 PM

There are HD DVD titles with 7.1 audio.

"Der Geist Von Mae Nak" has DTS HD with 7.1 channels. By the new year there will be another North American release with 7.1 too.

I'm pretty sure a few of the music titles do, but I don't have the list to hand.

Andy Pennell · 12-19-07, 08:13 PM

Also MLP is TrueHD. They are the same thing for HD DVD.

namechamps · 12-20-07, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Pennell

There are HD DVD titles with 7.1 audio.

"Der Geist Von Mae Nak" has DTS HD with 7.1 channels. By the new year there will be another North American release with 7.1 too.

I'm pretty sure a few of the music titles do, but I don't have the list to hand.

I will update the FAQ with Der Geist Von Mae Nak. If you have any other confirmed titles I am sure many would want to know. I searched but want unable to find any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Pennell

Also MLP is TrueHD. They are the same thing for HD DVD.

Thanks. Some documents (even on Dolby's website) seem to indicate that they are seperate formats on HD DVD. I did know TrueHD is based on MLP so that makes sense. FAQ Updated.

Keep em coming.

bvader · 12-20-07, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namechamps

Ok before I update first post let me make sure I get this straight:
HD-A1: All formats encoded as DTS 1.5Mbps on spdif
...

HD-A2: ??? same as HD-1 series?

HD-A2: All HD Formats re-encoded to DTS 1.5 Mbps

One thing I also would like to see someone verify and that is is is a max of DTS 1.5 Mbps or always 1.5 Mbps for HD re-encoded audio.

Also I know this is is an HD audio FAQ but it constantly causes confusion you may want to put this in somewhere..
On All Players All SD audio tracks are preserved in their original formats over SPIF.

EDIT: Forgot to add ...Nice Work!

av30 · 12-20-07, 03:42 AM

So there is no loss in sound quality from TrueHD by going the analog route? And the receiver is getting the full uncompressed, player decoded signal? I understand all dsp logic would then have to be handled by the player, but I'm guessing the trade off in audio quality more than makes up for the inconvenience of calibrating again. Great post, very informative.

namechamps · 12-20-07, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av30

So there is no loss in sound quality from TrueHD by going the analog route? And the receiver is getting the full uncompressed, player decoded signal? I understand all dsp logic would then have to be handled by the player, but I'm guessing the trade off in audio quality more than makes up for the inconvenience of calibrating again. Great post, very informative.

Yes. Remember all sound is eventually analog. Going analog out of the player just does it "earlier".

There is one issue and it varies by receiver. Some receiver's apply DSP logic on the analog input however DSP only work on digital signals so the receiver uses an ADC (reverse of a DAC) to sample the analog signal back into a digital form. the DSP are then used for logic control and the receiver's DAC outputs the analog sound. You have no made a double roundtrip between digital & analog forms which could cause some glitches.

The opposite is some receiver's do nothing to analog in. The signal is sent straight to the amplifier. In this cause you avoid the double conversion but are now limited to the rather limited logic controls on the player.

I have tried all 4 methods with TrueHD tracks and analog out produces a noticeably better sound that compressed spdif out. Despite the "technical" limits of analog out I rank the options from most favored to last favored as:
1) HDMI v1.3 (bitstream)
2) HDMI v1.1 (LPCM)
3) Analog Out
4) S/PDIF

av30 · 12-21-07, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namechamps

Yes. Remember all sound is eventually analog. Going analog out of the player just does it "earlier".

There is one issue and it varies by receiver. Some receiver's apply DSP logic on the analog input however DSP only work on digital signals so the receiver uses an ADC (reverse of a DAC) to sample the analog signal back into a digital form. the DSP are then used for logic control and the receiver's DAC outputs the analog sound. You have no made a double roundtrip between digital & analog forms which could cause some glitches.

I've got a Rotel RSX1056, and from what I gather (haven't used the analog inputs yet, have no HD/BR player), you can choose to perform a full bypass or as you said have it apply the logic and then convert it back to analog again.

I'd much rather take the extra step and calibrate test tones etc.. with the player again than have the receiver take unnecessary steps with the signal. When I buy a player I'll definitely try out both ways and let the ears do the judging as Rotel Dacs are suppose to be quality!

av30 · 12-21-07, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namechamps

I have tried all 4 methods with TrueHD tracks and analog out produces a noticeably better sound that compressed spdif out. Despite the "technical" limits of analog out I rank the options from most favored to last favored as:
1) HDMI v1.3 (bitstream)
2) HDMI v1.1 (LPCM)
3) Analog Out
4) S/PDIF

You mentioned the True HD sound quality via analog is better than with S/PDIF, as it should be...but how would you measure the quality compared to HDMI v1.1 and 1.3.

Did you rate analog 3rd for loss of 1. Convenience or 2. Sound quality?

namechamps · 12-21-07, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av30

You mentioned the True HD sound quality via analog is better than with S/PDIF, as it should be...but how would you measure the quality compared to HDMI v1.1 and 1.3.

Did you rate analog 3rd for loss of 1. Convenience or 2. Sound quality?

The ranking wasn't just SQ but also convenience and simplified setup.

Analog "should" be same SQ as HDMI however there are two "issues":
1) The player's DAC is used and while the DAC are good in the Toshibas they are not superior to some high-end receivers.
2) Use of 6 cables is somewhat cumbersome and many receivers only have 1 analog in.
3) As in the above post you have to either a) have unnecessary AFC->DAC loop or use limited logic options on the player.

So while analog in theory will be exactly the same as HDMI the real world may complicate the issue so I ranked it third.

I ranked HDMI v1.3 higher than HDMI v1.1 because of the bugs in Toshiba's firmware. Some users have reported that 48Khz tracks are being converted to 96Khz tracks likely due to some poor implementation of the mixer. While using HDMI v1.3 won't sound better it bypasses the whole issue. The KISS principle. Another minor issue would be that no HD DVD player can decode DTS-HD MA and many receiver's can. HDMI v1.3 allows access to that option.

So if you had an HDMI v1.3 receiver with decoding of all formats and an HDMI v1.3 player the perfered option would be HDMI v1.3 (bitstream). If you have HDMI receiver but it is HDMI v1.1 that would be preferred over analog. If you have analog but not HDMI it would be preferred over spdif. I would only use spdif if you had no other options.

The simple answer:
The ranking is just my $0.02 and is not just SQ but simplicity, ease of hookup, capabilities, lack of issues, etc.

hdtimmy · 12-21-07, 06:35 PM

Say you have an HDMI 1.3 Player and Receiver and you are using the bitstream option. Do you hear things like menu audio? I'm assuming that the answer is no, since the player is passing the raw bitstream and doesn't have a chance to mix in other sounds in the PCM domain.

I could care less about menu audio, I'm just curious.

I have an A1 with a Denon 3805. I am using the 6 channel analog connection. I also have my Receiver in PureDirect mode. I am totally blown away by the TrueHD soundtrack on the new Harry Potter discs. It is fantastic!!

psu85 · 12-22-07, 12:27 AM

Great Post/Information, But I want to make sure I'm thinking right. I have a Onkyo 604 (last years model) that has a HDMI connection and says in the manual that the supported audio formats are:

- 2 channel linear PCM(32-192khz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Multichannel linear PCM (5.1 ch 32-96khz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Bitstream (DD and DTS)

So I can buy the A-3 and hook up via the HDMI cable and will basically be able to receive the True HD sound?

Thanks

namechamps · 12-22-07, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdtimmy

Say you have an HDMI 1.3 Player and Receiver and you are using the bitstream option. Do you hear things like menu audio? I'm assuming that the answer is no, since the player is passing the raw bitstream and doesn't have a chance to mix in other sounds in the PCM domain.

I could care less about menu audio, I'm just curious.

That is correct the mixer is bypassed so you only hear one audio track with no extra sounds. The main menu (similar to traditional DVD) still has an audio since at this point the player is still outputting PCM. Once the movie start the the "overlay" menu which pops up in the movie will be silent.

I don't care about the menu sounds (beeps and boops) either.

More importantly is that you can't hear any PIP soundtracks while bitstreaming. Since I use IME on about one out of 10 movies it doesn't really bother me. People that love IME and other in movie special effects likely will just leave the player in HDMI v1.1 mode so it can mix in secondary tracks.

namechamps · 12-22-07, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psu85

Great Post/Information, But I want to make sure I'm thinking right. I have a Onkyo 604 (last years model) that has a HDMI connection and says in the manual that the supported audio formats are:

- 2 channel linear PCM(32-192khz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Multichannel linear PCM (5.1 ch 32-96khz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Bitstream (DD and DTS)

So I can buy the A-3 and hook up via the HDMI cable and will basically be able to receive the True HD sound?

Thanks

Yes. There also would be no reason to get an HD-35 since it looks like you receiver can't decode TrueHD internally (needs to be decoded in the player).

Your setup would be the one described as "HDMI v1.1 (LPCM Output)"

You will have full resolution DD+ and TrueHD tracks.

psu85 · 12-22-07, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namechamps

Yes. There also would be no reason to get an HD-35 since it looks like you receiver can't decode TrueHD internally (needs to be decoded in the player).

Your setup would be the one described as "HDMI v1.1 (LPCM Output)"

You will have full resolution DD+ and TrueHD tracks.

Outstanding, Thanks for the confirmation!

BIslander · 12-22-07, 02:41 PM

This is a great resource, especially considering that audio is generally more complicated than video and is getting more so all of the time.

But, I don't see anything more than a passing reference in later posts to the treatment of audio on advanced content features such as PIP commentary. I believe some of these features only work when decoded and mixed in the player. I would write something about it myself, but I don't know enough to do so. In fact, I am curious about how these extra audio pieces fit together. Perhaps someone with real knowledge could do an explanation.

BIslander · 12-22-07, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdtimmy

I have an A1 with a Denon 3805. I am using the 6 channel analog connection. I also have my Receiver in PureDirect mode. I am totally blown away by the TrueHD soundtrack on the new Harry Potter discs. It is fantastic!!

hdtimmy, I have a 3805 and an A3 without analog outputs. I am considering whether to get an XA2/A35, or an HDMI receiver, or just sit tight for awhile longer. (I am reluctant to "upgrade" my 3805, which is a great receiver for me. Unfortunately, my analog inputs are already in use for an SACD/DVD-A player.)

Have you had an opportunity to compare the transcoded DD/DTS audio via SPDIF with TrueHD over analog? I find a DD at 640kbps a significant improvement over standard DD. I was able to do one comparison at my local AV shop and did not find TrueHD on a Denon 4806 to be that much better than the transcoded version over SDPIF.

I posted a similar inquiry in the Audio Theory thread, but haven't heard back from many people who have actually done this comparison on their equipment.

Thanks.

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namechamps AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,426	FAQ: HD DVD & HD Audio What Audio formats are available on HD DVD? Dolby Digital (DD): Legacy Audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 504Kbps. Not commonly used on HD DVD due to higher bitrate available on the mandatory DD+. DTS: Legacy Audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 1.5Mbps. Somewhat uncommon on HD DVD. Dolby Digital Plus (DD+): New lossy audio format. Decoder is required. Maximum bitrate of 3.0Mbps. Most HD DVD contain either a 640K or 1.5Mbps as the primary or backup track. The most common audio format on HD DVD. DTS-HD High Resolution: New lossy audio format from DTS. Maximum bitrate of 3.0Mpbs. Decoder is optional and is not present on any HD DVD players but is found on some HDMI v1.3 receivers. Very rare on HD DVD titles likely due to lack of required decoder. Format contains a 1.5Mbps DTS core track for legacy receivers. LPCM (Linear Pulse Code Modulation): An uncompressed audio track that features up to 192KHz/24bit resolution in stereo or 96KHz/24bit in multichannel (up to 8 channels). No decoder is necessary as the format is already uncompressed on the disc. All digital audio formats are decoded to LPCM before applying DSP logic or converting to analog. Format is rather uncommon because lossless formats can store audio of the same quality with space and bandwidth requirements roughly half that of LPCM. Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio (DTS-HD MA): Both formats losslessly compressed LPCM to save space and bandwidth. The term lossless indicates the original audio stream can be reconstructed without any loss of quality or resolution. The lossless formats would be analogous to file compression formats on computers such as winzip or rar which allow files to be compressed for download and be reconstructed bit for bit. Both formats offer decoding up to 18.0Mbps and can recreate 8 channels @ 96Khz/24bit. The bitrate will vary depending on the bitdepth and sample rate of the original as well as the complexity of the track. The formats will always be bit for bit identical to the original source. Due to their nature neither format can use more or less bandwidth than what is required for that track. DTS-HD MA offers a lossy 1.5Mbps DTS core however decoder support is optional and not found on any HD DVD player. Which formats are HD DVD players required to decode? HD DVD players are required to have decoder support for DD (legacy), DTS (legacy), DD+, and Dolby TrueHD. Only stereo (2 channel) support is required for Dolby TrueHD however all standalone players released to date support multichannel channel decoding. No decoder is necessary for LPCM as it is stored uncompressed on the disc. All HD DVD players must support outputting up to 2 channels @ 192Khz/24bit and 8 channels @ 96Khz/24bit. Decoder support for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA is optional in the HD DVD spec. No HD DVD player supports decoding these formats internally. The HD-XA2, HD-A35, and DV-HD805 support bitstreaming the audio via HDMI v1.3 to a receiver capable of decoding the format. How can I connect my HD DVD player to my receiver? There are 4 methods to connect an HD DVD player to your receiver however not all methods are available on all players. Method 1: Legacy S/PDIF (Digital Out) Players Supported: All HD DVD players Receivers Supported: Virtually all receivers with optical s/pdif connection Cable Required: Toslink (optical s/pdif cable) Decoder used: Player (then encoded to 640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS) DAC used: Receiver (Player's DAC are bypassed) For player/receiver combinations lacking another transport method this provides legacy support at the expense of reduced audio quality. The Digital Out connection lacks support for modern codecs (DD+, DTS-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) and it also lacks bandwidth for more than 2 channel LPCM. The player can either output the raw 2 channel (stereo) LPCM over toslink or encode it to a multichannel bitstream. The player will encode the PCM as either 640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS depending on the player or track. SD DVD are always passed as original bitstream on the disc. The sound quality can never exceed the transport limit (640K DD or 1.5Mbps DTS) regardless of the track being output. Even this is an improvement over standard DVD which is limited to 448Kbps DD and 1.5Mbps DTS (>768Kbps very uncommon). This connection should only be used if there is no other connection available. Method 2: Analog Out -> Analog In Players Supported: HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2, HD-A35 only Receivers Supported: Any Receiver with 6 (or 8) channel analog in Cable Required: 6 RCA Audio cables Decoder Used: Player DAC Used: Player (Receiver DAC may be bypassed) This method on higher end HD DVD players provides support for full resolution audio. The track is decoded internally in the player and then converted to analog using the player's DAC (Digital Analog Converters). The analog waveform is sent via the 6 RCA cables to the receiver's analog in. The player can only decode formats that the player is capable of decoding. To date no players have internal support for DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA decoding. Sound quality will be limited to the capabilities of the DAC in the player. One potential issue with this method is that the DSP in receivers that apply matrixing, bass management, room shaping, and crossovers can only affect a digital signal. Some receivers may bypass all logic and send audio to amplifier this requires that all logic be set with the minimal set of options in HD DVD player. Some receivers will use an ADC (Analog Digital Converter) to turn the analog back into a digital form, apply logic and then convert back to analog. This double conversion to analog can cause a loss of quality. Some receivers may have an option to select the method used (bypass or ADC). This connection should be used if your receiver does not support HDMI audio but has a multi channel analog in. Method 3: HDMI v1.1 (LPCM Output) Players Supported: All HD DVD Players Receivers Supported: All receivers that can process a LPCM signal from HDMI Cable Required: 1 HDMI cable Decoder Used: Player DAC Used: Receiver HDMI allows the transmission of high resolution LPCM audio. The player decodes the track internally to LPCM and outputs via HDMI. The receiver applies any DSP logic and the receiver DAC is used to convert the signal to analog. Some older receivers are just HDMI passthrough, they cannot extract or process audio from the HDMI cable. When buying an HDMI1.1 receiver ensure it is able to process LPCM input over the HDMI source. When using this method your receiver will not display DD+ or TrueHD it will display LPCM, Multichannel PCM, 48/24 PCM or something similar. The sound quality is the same however this is a common source of confusion since the receiver does not indicate the audio track. The audio is being decoding in the player. By the time it reaches the player it is already LPCM so the receiver is reporting that is is receiving LPCM. The audio is being converted to analog in the receiver. The decoding of audio bitstream to LPCM should be identical regardless of where the decoding occurs. There have been no double blind tests that indicate decoding in the receiver vs. player results in superior audio quality. If you receiver supports HDMI generally either this method or method #4 is preferred over 6 channel analog or S/PDIF. Method 4: HDMI v1.3 (bitstream output) Players Supported: HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805 Receivers Supported: HDMI v1.3 receiver capable of decoding proper audio format Cable Required: 1 HDMI cable Decoder Used: Receiver DAC Used: Receiver HDMI v1.3 allows the transport of the bitstream or original compressed audio format. This allows the audio to be decoded by the receiver instead of the player. While this offers no proven sound quality improvement it does provide some flexibility. No HD DVD player to date supports decoding DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA. With HDMI v1.3 the compressed bitstream can be sent to the receiver and decoded. The elusive TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD icon will also light up on the receiver display. Since most HDMI v1.3 receivers support decoding of all audio formats, a compatible receiver guarantees playback of all discs (HD DVD and BD) regardless of the codec being used as long as the player is HDMI v1.3 and capable of bitstream output. To enable bitstream output on a compatible player bring up the Setup Menu > Audio > Digital Direct Audio Mode = On and Digital Out HDMI = Auto. The player's internal decoder and mixer are bypassed and the raw audio from the disc is sent to the receiver. Since the mixer is bypassed only the main audio track will be heard. Secondary audio tracks (IME or commentary tracks) and menu sounds will not be heard. The Direct Digital Audio Mode can be turned off to enable LPCM output (method #3) and gain access to secondary audio tracks from the player setup menu. This method bypasses the player's decoder and mixer which may avoid some SQ issues caused by incorrect settings applied to mixer (see 96KHz output). If I have my player connected by SPDIF optical out (method #1) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks? For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be transcoded to Dolby Digital @640K or DTS @ 1.5Mbps. This is due to limitation on the SPDIF (optical) connection. You will hear the movie however the sound quality will be reduced. The sound quality is still superior to SD DVD which are generally 448K DD or 768K DTS. No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core" and output it via SPDIF. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track. If I have my player connected by analog out (method #2) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks? For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be decoded in the player and output via the 6 channel analog out. You will not be able to output 6.1 and 7.1 tracks as 7 or 8 discrete channels. The player will still extract the 6 channels (5.1) and output that portion of the track. No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core, decode, and output the "core" via the 6 channel output. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track. If I have my player connected by HDMI - LPCM (method #3) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks? For DD+ and TrueHD tracks the audio will be decoded in the player and output as LPCM via the HDMI link. You receiver will likely display this as "Multi PCM", "Multichannel PCM", or just "Multichannel". No HD DVD player has a decoder for DTS-HD & DTS-HD MA tracks. The DTS-HD format has a DTS "core" which is 5.1 DTS @ 1.5Mbps. The player will extract the "core, decode, and output the "core" via the 6 channel output. You will not hear the higher quality DTS-HD or lossless DTS-HD MA track. If your player & receiver are bitstream compatible you can set the player to [Direct Digital Audio Output] = Yes to bitstream the raw audio to the receiver for decoding. See method #4 above for more information. If I have my player connected by HDMI - Bitstream (method #4) can I listen to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks? Yes your player will bitstream the raw audio from the disc to a compatible receiver. The receiver must support decoding of the proper format. Generally HDMI v1.3 receivers support decoding of all 4 new codecs (DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA). You must have a bitstream compatible player and receiver. The player must be in bitstream mode ([Digital Out HDMI] = Auto & [Direct Digital Audio Out] = On). You will not hear any menu sounds or secondary (IME or commentary) tracks. Are there any HD DVD players with 7.1 channel analog out? No. At this time the only players with analog out (HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2, HD-35, DV-HD805) have 6 channel (5.1) analog out. The only way to pass discrete 7.1 audio would be by an HDMI connection; either internally decoded with HDMI v1.1 or bitstream with HDMI v1.3). All players have the ability to output 7.1 PCM over HDMI. All bitstream capable players can bitstream 7.1 channel tracks. Are there any HD DVD titles with 7.1 audio tracks? At this point the only confirmed HD DVD with 7.1 audio are "Der Geist Von Mae Nak" and "Pan's Labyrinth" which have a DTS-HD MA 7.1 track. Since no HD DVD player can internally decode DTS-HD MA playback of the DTS-HD MA track would require a bitstream (HDMI v1.3) capable player and receiver. Is the "core" of a 7.1 channel DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA track 5.1 or 7.1 channels? The core of a DTS-HD track is always a 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 track. Regardless of the number of channels or bitrate of the DTS-HD track the core will always be a legacy 5.1 DTS track @ 1.5Mbps. This allows maximum compatibility with legacy DTS decoders. If your player does not support bitstream of the DTS-HD track then the core will be extracted. What happens if I play a DTS-HD track on a player that does not have support for DTS-HD decoding? DTS-HD decoding is optional and currently no HD DVD player has support for internal DTS-HD decoder. If a capable player is in bitstream mode it can bitstream the DTS-HD track to a compatible receiver. All other players will extract the lossy DTS "core" from the track. The core is a 5.1 DTS track encoded @ 1.5Mbps. Are there any HD DVD players with coax digital out? All HD DVD players have optical digital output but only a few have coaxial outputs. The HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2 have both optical and coax digital output however they have been discontinued and are increasingly difficult to locate at retail. The Onkyo DV-HD805 has both optical and coaxial digital outputs, however it substantial more expensive than other HD DVD players ($799 MSRP). There is a cheaper option to convert from optical to coaxial. An optical to coaxial digital converter can pass optical signals to a coaxial input. Both physical connections use the same S/PDIF spec so there is no alteration of the digital data. Converters are available from a variety of sources and cost about $20-$50. Ensure you get a optical -> coaxial converter as most are one way devices. What is the difference between decoding and converting (digital to analog conversion)? Audio formats are traditionally compressed to save space and bandwidth. Decoding takes a compressed audio format (DD+, TrueHD, DTS) and unpacks it to LPCM (Linear PCM). Decoding is a 100% digital process and is essentially a math equation. A compressed source is unpacked according to a formula to produce full resolution audio in the form of LPCM. This step is necessary because the DSP (digital signal processors) which apply logic (bass management, cross over settings, room shaping) are designed to manipulate LPCM. The DACs (digital to analog converter) in a receiver, player or HDTV take LPCM as their input. A separate step which is often confused with decoding is the conversion of a digital signal to an analog waveform suitable for amplification and output. Players, receivers, and HDTVs with speakers need to convert digital signals to an analog waveform which can be amplified and used to drive speakers. The component that converts digital signals to an analog electrical signal is a Digital to Analog Converter (DAC). The quality of the DAC will determine how accurate the digital signal is converted to analog. Often the DAC in a AV Receiver is superior to the DAC in other equipment including HD DVD players so it is preferred to have the conversion to analog occur in the device with best DAC. If a player is outputting a Digital signal via HDMI or S/PDIF the DAC in the player is not used. DACs are only used in the conversion of digital -> analog. The only time the DAC in the player is used is when the analog outs (stereo or multichannel) on the HD DVD player are used. Why doesn't the TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD, or DTS-HD MA icon light up on my receiver? Likely you receiver is not receiving the TrueHD, DD+, or DTS-HD bitstream. This does not necessarily mean you are not getting HD audio. There are two methods of transporting HD audio over an HDMI link (see method 3 and method 4 above). Using HDMI v1.1 LPCM output the player will decode the bitstream from the disc to LPCM. It is important to remember that decoding is a 100% digital process. The player will then output the LPCM via HDMI to the receiver. The receiver is getting the full resolution audio it just has already been decoded to LPCM so from the receiver's "point of view" it is receiving LPCM. The player will display LPCM, Multichannel PCM, PCM 48/24 or something similar. Using HDMI v1.3 Bitstream output the player will take the compressed bitstream and send it to the receiver. The receiver will decode the bitstream to LPCM internally. In this case the receiver's input light will display the format being decoded. To bitstream HD audio requires an HDMI v1.3 player (HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805) and an HDMI v1.3 receiver that is capable of decoding the format selected. In both cases the bitstream is decoded to the same LPCM first (in the player for LPCM, in the receiver for bitstream). In both cases the receiver's DAC will be used to convert to analog. There have been no double blind tests to show decoding in the receiver results in superior sound. The biggest advantage of bitstream is that no HD DVD player has the ability to decode DTS-HD HR and DTS-HD MA tracks internally. These tracks can be streamed to a capable receiver for decoding. I just purchased a disc with DTS-HD (or DTS-HD MA) am I getting the full HD audio? You must bitstream the track to your compatible receiver to get the full HD audio track. No HD DVD player can decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA tracks internally. The player will extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 core which is the same format found on SD DVD and output it to your receiver. The only method to get the full DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA track is to bitstream it to a compatible receiver (see method 4 above). The only players capable of bitstream are the HD-XA2, HD-A35, and DV-HD805. In addition to a bitstream capable player you will need an HDMI v1.3 receiver that has support for decoding DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. What are the difference between the HD players in terms of audio outputs? All HD DVD players have: HDMI output (capable of 8 channel LPCM). Stereo Output (L/R RCA jacks) S/PDIF Optical Output (toslink) All HD DVD players can internally decode: DD (legacy) DTS (legacy) DD+ TrueHD (spec only requires 2 channel but all players are multichannel capable) No HD DVD player can decode: DTS-HD High Resolution Audio (all players can extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 "core") DTS-HD Master Audio (all players can extract the 1.5Mbps DTS 5.1 "core") The HD-A35, HD-XA2, DV-HD805 add or upgrade the following outputs: 6 channel analog out S/PDIF coaxial output in addition to S/PDIF optical output - (HD-XA2, DV-HD805 only) HDMI v1.3 output (capable of bitstream or LPCM output) No HD DVD player can internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA tracks. Even the bitstream capable players (HD-A35, HD-XA2, DV-HD805) can NOT decode DTS-HD. The bitstream players only transfer the raw bitstream to a compatible receiver. Why can't I hear PIP/IME secondary audio or menu sounds? When a bitstream capable player (HD-XA2, HD-A35, DV-HD805) is in bitstream mode (Digital Direct Audio=On) the player's internal decoder and mixer is bypassed. The player is outputting the raw track bitstream from the disc. The HDMI v1.3 spec does not allow more than one audio stream to be output. To hear IME or menu sounds you will need to disabled Digital Direct Audio (bitstream) from the player's Setup Menu. This will allow the player to mix the multiple audio tracks and menu sounds. The player will output the audio as LPCM over the HDMI link. HDMI Audio has low LFE level and receiver input shows as 96KHz however the title is only 48KHz. What is going on? The Toshiba mixer is altering the sampling rate of the track. The SPDIF setting in player setup switches the output from 48KHz to 96KHz even when using HDMI output instead of SPDIF. On some receivers this results in very low LFE levels. The DSP in the Toshiba players do not have enough power to handled 96KHz encoding for SPDIF output so when SPDIF is set to bitstream output is 48KHz, otherwise it is 96KHz. There is no reason to alter the sampling rate of a track inside the mixer. A 48KHz track upsampled to 96KHz will not contain any more information than the original 48KHz source. The process is not lossless and may introduce transient noise into the mix. To ensure the source is output at the original sampling rate the following settings are recommended. 48KHz source: Set "Digital Out SPDIF" = "Bitstream" for 48KHz output over HDMI. 96KHz source: Set "Digital Out SPDIF" = "PCM" for 96KHz output over HDMI. Virtually all movies are 48KHz sources. If the title is not marked it likely is 48KHz. In my opinion this is a bug although there has been no confirmation by Toshiba. It is not logical or user friendly that the SPDIF setting alters the HDMI output. Hopefully Toshiba either fixes the issue in a firmware update or introduces another option to lock output sampling rate to the input sampling rate. Players affected: HD-A2, HD-A3, HD-A35 (likely affects all Toshiba players but the models listed have been confirmed). This issue does not affect bitstream (method #4) output and is an example of what direct output is preferred by some users. Diagrams are copyright 2007 Dolby Laboratories Inc. The HDMI v1.3 diagram was modified by me because Dolby has the incorrect caption. No wonder consumers are confused if even Dolby doesn't get it right. Last edited by namechamps; 12-30-07 at 11:55 PM..

12-19-07, 03:05 AM	#7 \| Link
takisot F.P. berserk! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,058	Great effort, thanks a lot! __________________ A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..

12-19-07, 03:12 AM	#8 \| Link
mosman22 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 464	Great post Hopefully this can help clean up all the audio questions that can derail threads, although i am not going to hold my breath. This is a great resource for HD DVD newbies who are confused by these new codecs. Kudos, on all the time and effort that went into this great resource.

12-19-07, 07:33 AM	#9 \| Link
PooperScooper AVS Moderator AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Leominster MA Posts: 16,215	Member efforts are always appreciated. Before you get too involved, here's an observation that may save you a lot of effort. People have spent a lot of time making FAQs and we make them stickies. However, most people don't read them. Heck, people don't look on the first page or stickies for the exact same topic before creating a new thread! They're too lazy and want _their_ exact problem solved now. That being said, there are some people who do read FAQs and do appreciate them - especially the AVS moderators. I just didn't want anyone get put in a lot of effort only to possibly be discouraged when it appears people don't read them. If you are going to continue to update the FAQ, I'll make it a sticky and we'll see what happens. Ideally when threads are created which already have been answered in the FAQ somebody well reply "see FAQ in the stickies" and that we be it for the thread. Thanks for any effort. larry __________________ Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. Help Support AVS Forum Advertisers <click to see them>

12-19-07, 11:29 AM	#11 \| Link
PooperScooper AVS Moderator AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Leominster MA Posts: 16,215	Ok, cool, thanks for the effort. I'll make it a sticky and we'll see what happens. Hopefully others can contribute/critique and you can update the main page. larry __________________ Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. Help Support AVS Forum Advertisers <click to see them>

12-18-07, 12:19 AM	#2 \| Link
namechamps AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,426	Reserved

12-18-07, 12:20 AM	#3 \| Link
namechamps AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,426	Reserved More Space

12-18-07, 10:10 AM	#4 \| Link
bobgpsr AVS Special Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa Posts: 2,700	DTS uses the term DTS-HD HRA (High Resolution Audio) for the new DTS lossy codec. The XA2 (and IIRC the A20, A3, A30, A35) will re-encode to 1.5Mbps DTS for S/PDIF output if the user selects any type of DTS encoded track or a LPCM track on the title. It re-encodes to 640kbps DD if the user selects any type of Dolby encoded track (DD, DD+, TrueHD) on the title.

12-18-07, 06:59 PM	#6 \| Link
shabre Advanced Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: minnesota Posts: 688	very good post starting here! Excellent for the newbies to the HD market. Thank you for all your time and effort puting this together :0 I am not a newbie, but for those that are, this will provide many answers/solutions to there questions!

12-19-07, 04:15 PM	#14 \| Link
trpltongue AVS Special Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,471	Thanks a lot! This has been a great read for me. I was totally lost on format requirements etc and this is exactly what I needed to see.

12-19-07, 07:32 PM	#15 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Andy Pennell HD DVD Insider Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Kirkland, WA, USA Posts: 329	There are HD DVD titles with 7.1 audio. "Der Geist Von Mae Nak" has DTS HD with 7.1 channels. By the new year there will be another North American release with 7.1 too. I'm pretty sure a few of the music titles do, but I don't have the list to hand. __________________ HD DVD Veteran

12-19-07, 08:13 PM	#16 \| Link
Andy Pennell HD DVD Insider Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Kirkland, WA, USA Posts: 329	Also MLP is TrueHD. They are the same thing for HD DVD. __________________ HD DVD Veteran

12-20-07, 03:42 AM	#19 \| Link
av30 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	So there is no loss in sound quality from TrueHD by going the analog route? And the receiver is getting the full uncompressed, player decoded signal? I understand all dsp logic would then have to be handled by the player, but I'm guessing the trade off in audio quality more than makes up for the inconvenience of calibrating again. Great post, very informative.

12-21-07, 06:35 PM	#24 \| Link
hdtimmy Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Olathe, KS Posts: 303	Say you have an HDMI 1.3 Player and Receiver and you are using the bitstream option. Do you hear things like menu audio? I'm assuming that the answer is no, since the player is passing the raw bitstream and doesn't have a chance to mix in other sounds in the PCM domain. I could care less about menu audio, I'm just curious. I have an A1 with a Denon 3805. I am using the 6 channel analog connection. I also have my Receiver in PureDirect mode. I am totally blown away by the TrueHD soundtrack on the new Harry Potter discs. It is fantastic!!

12-22-07, 12:27 AM	#25 \| Link
psu85 Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Central Pa Posts: 27	Great Post/Information, But I want to make sure I'm thinking right. I have a Onkyo 604 (last years model) that has a HDMI connection and says in the manual that the supported audio formats are: - 2 channel linear PCM(32-192khz, 16/20/24 bit) - Multichannel linear PCM (5.1 ch 32-96khz, 16/20/24 bit) - Bitstream (DD and DTS) So I can buy the A-3 and hook up via the HDMI cable and will basically be able to receive the True HD sound? Thanks

12-22-07, 02:41 PM	#29 \| Link
BIslander AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,230	This is a great resource, especially considering that audio is generally more complicated than video and is getting more so all of the time. But, I don't see anything more than a passing reference in later posts to the treatment of audio on advanced content features such as PIP commentary. I believe some of these features only work when decoded and mixed in the player. I would write something about it myself, but I don't know enough to do so. In fact, I am curious about how these extra audio pieces fit together. Perhaps someone with real knowledge could do an explanation. Last edited by BIslander; 12-22-07 at 02:52 PM..