Official Epson Pro Cinema 1080UB Thread

[cpc]

zductive,

If you are not happy, ask for a replacement that is better than what you have. Contact Epson and say "My convergence is poor and my pixels are off by ___, and I want a projector whose picture shows much better convergence.". Perhaps email support a picture like you have there. When you get the new one, take a look at it and compare it using a picture like you took with the bad unit.

I think it is best to use a test pattern, however, the convenience of simply using the menu lettering of the OSD is that you can move it all around the screen and watch the convergence change. You can get a quick idea of where it is the worst. Of course, be careful, because the look of the convergence will vary around the screen because of the chromatic aberation. Anyhow, just use test patterns of grids or crosshairs like in the nokia monitor test pattern (is there a 16:9 version of that?) or just pull up the menu and use that. Your picture of the word "reset" looks much like my 'menu position' picture does.

Interesting comment from tvted. You can see more evidence that what he describes is infact what is happening. Notice that you see red on the left and cyan on the right. The middle is white, because the red that shifted from the right most side is now one over where that red has shifted out one. The left most is red and the right is cyan. Interesting, because my untrained colour brain thought I had both blue and red pixels out. Now I think what tvted is saying makes more sense, because it looks like blue and green are very good, and red is the one that is significantly out.

The bottom line is, the Epson does not have the sharpest optics, so if you have less than good convergence, it's even worse. I imagine that the Epson's with good convergence are probably not too bad. It was really evident on the Hitachi when convergence was bad, because when it was good, it was razor sharp. When it wasn't good, it didn't look horrible, but it was oddly soft. Once fixed, it was like. Wow. That is sharp.

[jonchilds]

Originally Posted by tvted

Percent is percent and will be the same referenced from the centre or the edge since the *whole* image shifts.

I haven't read the EPSON manual but it would seem to me that you have a shift of almost half a screen width, i.e on an 96 inch wide (110 diagonal) image you shold be able to shift that .47 * 96 or 45 inches. Be aware that depending on the quality of the lens/shift mechanism that optical errors *can* be introduced - Chromatic Aberration or Keystoning for example. The only way to know for sure is to play around which I'm a great beleiver in. What else are you planning to do with your pj, watch movies or somethng? We're nerds. (I'm pretty though).

ted

Ted,

Thanks for the quick reply and sorry if this is a stupid question but I am still not sure if I can have the projector mounted say 2 feet to the right of the screen as I look at it. In your example (which is actually the size of my screen) if I have to projector 24 inches to the right of the screen am I shifting it 24 inches or 72 (92/2+24) inches? The projector lens would then be 72 inches from the center of my screen. I thought it was from the center of the screen, but the manual seems to show the projector placed on the side. I figured that in order to be able to mount out outside the frame of the screen it would need to allow a shift of over 50%.

Thanks
Jon

[skioutwest]

Then you need 78% shift to accomplish what you are looking to do. (72/92)

-Mark

[ricwhite]

Originally Posted by jonchilds

Ted,

Thanks for the quick reply and sorry if this is a stupid question but I am still not sure if I can have the projector mounted say 2 feet to the right of the screen as I look at it. In your example (which is actually the size of my screen) if I have to projector 24 inches to the right of the screen am I shifting it 24 inches or 72 (92/2+24) inches? The projector lens would then be 72 inches from the center of my screen. I thought it was from the center of the screen, but the manual seems to show the projector placed on the side. I figured that in order to be able to mount out outside the frame of the screen it would need to allow a shift of over 50%.

Thanks
Jon

My Sony HS51 had a labeled 50% horizontal lens shift. I was able to locate the projector all the way aligned with the left edge of the screen. So, the 50% was measured from the CENTER of the screen. I would assume that the Epson (or any other projector) would be the same. However, if you ALSO use the vertical lens shift, it will limit the horizontal to less than what is specified. If the Epson lists a 46%, you could almost move it aligned with the edge. But if you are using vertical shift, it may reduce the horizontal to only 40% or so.

[tvted]

Jon,

I can see you've already got your answer in those from skioutwest and ricwhite. You are correct in that a 50% range will shift the image 1/2 of the dimension referenced so the pj's lens would be at the edge of the screen. With the 47% that the Epson has, the pj would be just inside the screen edge and per ricwhite's comments that might be limited if shift is used in the other dimension as they usually interact. My 47% calc btw was for a 96 inch screen width not 92 as I see you need.

I'm curious though, why the extreme offset? I would be concerned with image geometry.

ted

[jonchilds]

Originally Posted by tvted

Jon,


I'm curious though, why the extreme offset? I would be concerned with image geometry.

ted

The only reason is that I could basically just set it on top of my equipment rack, making the cabling much easier, and not have it directly over my head where the current projector is mounted. The fan noise of my current one can definitely be heard in low volume scenes. Although I know the current generation of projectors is much quiter than my 2002 model but if I could move it an extra 6 or so feet away I figured it would help with the noise. Nothing I cant live without, and I would definitely choose a little bit of fan noise and setup time over a problem with the picture geometry.

More or less it was just something that I though could help me make the final decision to go with this projector.

Thanks again
Jon

[cmos9]

For me and convergence it would come down to this. If I can see the misconvergence at my normal viewing distance then any misconvergence would bother me. for my unit I can clearly see it on text and during movies. Note that it is very hard to detect during movies and only certain scenes bring it out. In fact when I first setup my projector I did not go out of my way to look for convergence. I simply watched a movie and noticed it during the movie. Then when looking closer (literally) I noticec the misconvergence that my unit had.
Peter

[cpc]

Originally Posted by cmos9

For me and convergence it would come down to this. If I can see the misconvergence at my normal viewing distance then any misconvergence would bother me. for my unit I can clearly see it on text and during movies. Note that it is very hard to detect during movies and only certain scenes bring it out. In fact when I first setup my projector I did not go out of my way to look for convergence. I simply watched a movie and noticed it during the movie. Then when looking closer (literally) I noticec the misconvergence that my unit had.
Peter

Convergence is a personal taste thing I suppose, but you may as well make sure you are getting a projector with as good convergence as you possibley can. You want a good unit, not one that is poor and below average for that model. If your projector looks soft even when you focus it as best you can, it may not be because of the reputation the projector has for sharpness, it could be convergence. Different models have a rep for a certain level of sharpness, and then each models quality control varies too, resulting in some getting good units and other people having bad units. Make sure yours is good. I think most projectors have a certain level of sharpness based on a combo of the main glass lens and other optics in the light path, and perhaps some of the video processing, but then you've got bad assembly quality control making things bad for a given unit due to bad convergence.

If you have a pj you suspect has poor convergence, and you were to see a projector with much better convergence, it would be quite noticable in the form of a increase is sharpness. When we have a pj with poor convergence, we usually don't have another right there to compare it with. The reason I noticed my Hitachi's poor convergence was that the first TX100 I had was on with poor colour uniformity and other issues, so I exchanged it. I can't recall if I was very disappointed in the convergence, but the other problems were bad enough that I exchanged it anyhow. The replacement was not only good in colour uniformity, but it also happened to have very good convergence. It was very sharp. So when I upgraded to the TX200 and had another projector with bad colour uniformity, I also noticed that it didn't look as sharp as the TX100 I had last. No matter how hard I tried to focus it sharply, it would not. Upon closer inspection, I saw the misconvergence of the pixels, took photo's, etc. Swapping again cleared up all problems and the sharpness I was familiar with from the TX100 returned. I assume the convergence was much better, but I can't find pictures I had taken to show the amount of difference.

The moral of the story is that, having not seen a sharper, better focussed pj with better convergence, you may have somewhat poor convergence and not really notice anything dramatic. If you can see that the pixels are showing you poor convergence, take a close up picture like some of us here have done, using a digital cam on a tripod. Swap your projector or have it otherwise taken care of under warranty and have a look at the new projector. Using both regular viewing content and a close examination of the pixels should let you know if the replacement is better, worse, or the same. Take a picture like you did with the first poor unit and look at the pics side by side on your PC and you'll see just how they compare.

The test patterns and text aren't a world unto themselves in that their soft appearance alone is what is pissing us off, because there isn't that much fine text in movies to ruin your viewing. The usefulness of using text and test pattern fine lines is that they show you how fine detail is being lost etc, and you can verify if it is in fact convergence that is causing it, and espcially with simple fine white text, you can judge which colour is off and by how much. Make no mistake, I also used facial close-ups and other details to verify the softness/sharpness of the image. Small words written on car steering wheels and other manufactured items and printed materials like typing on paper are great for verifying whether your image is soft or sharp.

So check that you are focussing your projector as best you can. See how sharp the image is around the whole screen using test patterns, osd text and facial closeups, other scenes from dvd's you are familiar with which have fine detail like writing etc, and judge for yourself if it looks sharp. When looking at the osd or test patterns you can see how good or bad the convergence is and then it's up to you to decide whether or not you do anything about it re warranty etc.

[thriler]

Greetings,I am new to this site but I eagerly await the comments on your review of the UB.I am ready to purchase a new projector by March and had decided on the Optoma HD81LV but due to lens shift issues (and a ceiling that is only 8') I cant use it with the screen I have selected (Da Lite Da Snap 110" diagonal,I will probably us a 1.0 gain).From what I have read and discussed on similar forums the DLP's seem to have the edge on sharpness and the Optoma had a light output of 2,500 lumens,almost enough to burn a hole in the screen!! Now my 3 finalists are the Panny 2000 the UB and the JVC RS1 which I can get for $4200.There will be another review of the UB on the Ultimate AV website by mid to late Febuary as I spoke with the reviewer. recently.It seems that every month there is a new leader,"what a horse race" this seems to be with us all benefitting.The only downside is that as soon as I place my order and get it installed there will be something better!!

[JDLIVE]

Originally Posted by hrd

There's a place in Amesbury that just got one in. It hasn't even been set up yet, what with the two sales reps just getting back from the recent CES. They have a 110" Silverstar screen, so it should be quite an impressive image.

I plan to visit on the 21st, thanks to having the holiday off.

If you don't mind, what "place" is that? I'm looking to replace my Sony HS10 and the Epson is one PJ I'm considering. Thanks...

[hrd]

Originally Posted by JDLIVE

If you don't mind, what "place" is that? I'm looking to replace my Sony HS10 and the Epson is one PJ I'm considering. Thanks...

RSB Marketing. I ended up talking with them because they are the area reps for Vutec and I wanted to see a second Silverstar. I called them today hoping to get confirmation that they would have the new projector set up by next Monday, but they are closed due to the snow. They're the ones that got me thinking about Epson, after which I did searches on AVS and found out about the new UB about to come.

http://www.rsbmarketing.com/contact.htm

Go to New England Home Theater if you have not already and see their RS1 on a Silverstar. Most impressive demo I have ever seen. They also have a DWIN TV4, if you like it even brighter than an RS1 on a Silverstar. They're open on Saturdays.

http://www.newenglandhometheater.com/

[Hopstretch]

Originally Posted by hrd

They're the ones that got me thinking about Epson, after which I did searches on AVS and found out about the new UB about to come.

http://www.rsbmarketing.com/contact.htm

Go to New England Home Theater if you have not already and see their RS1 on a Silverstar. Most impressive demo I have ever seen. They also have a DWIN TV4, if you like it even brighter than an RS1 on a Silverstar. They're open on Saturdays.

http://www.newenglandhometheater.com/

Thank you very much for those links, as I'm in the same area and have been looking for a place to see those two projectors. I feel a day trip up 495 coming on!

[jjcritch]

Ok I am confused... Maybe someone can help me.

I am waiting for my Pro UB in the mail right now and calculating mounting position at Projectorcentral.com. Right now I have an Infocus SP5000.

When I use the calculator for the Infocus (1100 Lumens), inputing my screen diagonal (122") and current mounting distance (16') and my S-I-L-V-E-R screen gain (1.4) I get an image brightness of 35 fL.

When I use the calculator for the Epson Powerlight Home Cinema 720 (1600 Lumens) (there is no calculator for the 1080p UB) which roughly has the same stats as the UB, I input screen size (122") distance (12' 10") and gain (1.4) I get only brightness of 25 fL! What gives?

[Steve Dodds]

The calculator is useless. It doesn't have accurate lumens values for the different projectors.

[HiHoStevo]

Originally Posted by jjcritch

Ok I am confused... Maybe someone can help me.

I am waiting for my Pro UB in the mail right now and calculating mounting position at Projectorcentral.com. Right now I have an Infocus SP5000.

When I use the calculator for the Infocus, inputing my screen diameter (122") and current mounting distance (16') and my S-I-L-V-E-R screen gain (1.4) I get an image brightness of 35 fL.

When I use the calculator for the Epson Powerlight Home Cinema 720 (there is no calculator for the 1080p UB) which roughly has the same stats as the UB, I input screen size (122") distance (12' 10") and gain (1.4) I get only brightness of 25 fL! What give?

Traditionally InFocus rates lumen output once the projector is Calibrated whereas most projector manufacturers list maximum lumen output (ie: blue cranked way up).

So I imagine PJC is adjusting their calculator to represent what you will actually see after calibration.

[bass addict]

Originally Posted by jjcritch

I get only brightness of 25 fL! What gives?

Man I wish I could use only and 25 in the same sentence when talking about my screen.

[ricwhite]

Originally Posted by jjcritch

Ok I am confused... Maybe someone can help me.

I am waiting for my Pro UB in the mail right now and calculating mounting position at Projectorcentral.com. Right now I have an Infocus SP5000.

When I use the calculator for the Infocus (1100 Lumens), inputing my screen diameter (122") and current mounting distance (16') and my S-I-L-V-E-R screen gain (1.4) I get an image brightness of 35 fL.

When I use the calculator for the Epson Powerlight Home Cinema 720 (1600 Lumens) (there is no calculator for the 1080p UB) which roughly has the same stats as the UB, I input screen size (122") distance (12' 10") and gain (1.4) I get only brightness of 25 fL! What gives?

With the Epson set to the best move image (theater black 1) and from that distance and screen gain, I would estimate your brightness will be between 12-15 fl.

[jjcritch]

Originally Posted by ricwhite

With the Epson set to the best move image (theater black 1) and from that distance and screen gain, I would estimate your brightness will be between 12-15 fl.

What would you estimate my current set up is with the Infocus?

[edved1]

Originally Posted by thriler

It seems that every month there is a new leader,"what a horse race" this seems to be with us all benefitting.The only downside is that as soon as I place my order and get it installed there will be something better!!

Welcome to the world of projectors. There's always gonna be a new horse to beat. I just bought a SonyVW60 and I know all of next year's new line of 1080p PJ's will likely outperform my VW60, but it's the nature of the beast. The best thing to do, at least for me anyway, is to not come back here to AVS for at least two years after I setup my new Sony!

This will be my second PJ. The first one lasted me three and half years. I'm expecting a similar lifetime with this PJ as well. Here's hopin'.

[cnickersonjr]

Originally Posted by ricwhite

My initial impressions of the Epson Home Cinema 1080 UB projector:

Settings:

I have the HDMI 1 (HD DVD) setting for Theater Black 1. I have the lamp on high and then dialed back the brightness very slightly to a -2. I set the absolute color temperature to K6500. I set iris to “auto.” I set the “2-2 Pull-down” to “on” for the 1080p/24, but I don’t really know what that does. Maybe somebody can enlighten me. I’m not sure if I need that on to get 24 fps or not.

Have you found out what this feature is for? 2:2 Pulldown?

[pottscb]

Originally Posted by jjcritch

Ok I am confused... Maybe someone can help me.

I am waiting for my Pro UB in the mail right now and calculating mounting position at Projectorcentral.com. Right now I have an Infocus SP5000.

When I use the calculator for the Infocus (1100 Lumens), inputing my screen diameter (122") and current mounting distance (16') and my S-I-L-V-E-R screen gain (1.4) I get an image brightness of 35 fL.

When I use the calculator for the Epson Powerlight Home Cinema 720 (1600 Lumens) (there is no calculator for the 1080p UB) which roughly has the same stats as the UB, I input screen size (122") distance (12' 10") and gain (1.4) I get only brightness of 25 fL! What gives?

The thing I noticed immediately is that your mounting distance between the two setups changed by ~25%, plus the zooms range of the two pjs are not the same so they would cut light output differently...there are many explanations for your brightness discrepancy, in addition to the calculator figuring brightness based off of published specs which are rarely accurate.

[CraigW]

Originally Posted by cnickersonjr

Have you found out what this feature is for? 2:2 Pulldown?

2:2 pulldown converts 24 frames/s to 48 frames/s. It repeats every frame once. So essentially the projector does not perform any frame interpolation. With it off, the Epson works like its previous version converting 24 f/s to 60 f/s which is done by 2:3 pulldown.

Motion should be smoother, but don't confuse this with the new highend 120Hz model that are interpolating frames to make the film appear as ultra smooth video. I really don't like these new modes for films.

As far as 2:2 pulldown on the Epson, just turn it on. It is only active when the unit is receiving 24f/s which is the only time you want to use it anyway.

[CraigW]

Can I get a few more opinions on color uniformity? When throwing uniform white field there is definitely a shift in the tint of white and brightness level in the screen. Right side is a little brighter more green/blue white where the left has more of a pink hue and slightly dimmer.

[Blade100]

CPC

Very good post on the convergence discussion. I would like to add one comment that estimate for convergence error of the projector should be done on some internal test patterns, menu tables, or computer generated screens. High Definition material from disks (even looking at small newspaper print) may have internal chromatic abbreviation issue from camera lens recorded right into it. It would be really difficult to distinguish the difference compared to convergence error from the projector itself. Just to eliminate that possibility I would suggest looking at electronic patterns specially something that was generated from the projector itself and did not go through any scaling or video processing.

[jjcritch]

Originally Posted by pottscb

The thing I noticed immediately is that your mounting distance between the two setups changed by ~25%, plus the zooms range of the two pjs are not the same so they would cut light output differently...there are many explanations for your brightness discrepancy, in addition to the calculator figuring brightness based off of published specs which are rarely accurate.

My point exactly. Why would a brighter projector mounted closer to the screen end up with a lower fL than one that is dimmer mounted farther away?

[JDLIVE]

Originally Posted by hrd

RSB Marketing. I ended up talking with them because they are the area reps for Vutec and I wanted to see a second Silverstar. I called them today hoping to get confirmation that they would have the new projector set up by next Monday, but they are closed due to the snow. They're the ones that got me thinking about Epson, after which I did searches on AVS and found out about the new UB about to come.

http://www.rsbmarketing.com/contact.htm

Go to New England Home Theater if you have not already and see their RS1 on a Silverstar. Most impressive demo I have ever seen. They also have a DWIN TV4, if you like it even brighter than an RS1 on a Silverstar. They're open on Saturdays.

http://www.newenglandhometheater.com/

Thanks, appreciate the info.

[cpc]

Originally Posted by Blade100

CPC

Very good post on the convergence discussion. I would like to add one comment that estimate for convergence error of the projector should be done on some internal test patterns, menu tables, or computer generated screens. High Definition material from disks (even looking at small newspaper print) may have internal chromatic abbreviation issue from camera lens recorded right into it. It would be really difficult to distinguish the difference compared to convergence error from the projector itself. Just to eliminate that possibility I would suggest looking at electronic patterns specially something that was generated from the projector itself and did not go through any scaling or video processing.

Good point about using the internal test patterns. For that matter, you can use test patterns from the projector, the osd text, test patterns in your video processor (iScan HD/HD+ and VP 50 etc) or a disc with test patterns.

[John Kotches]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Can I get a few more opinions on color uniformity? When throwing uniform white field there is definitely a shift in the tint of white and brightness level in the screen. Right side is a little brighter more green/blue white where the left has more of a pink hue and slightly dimmer.

That actually sounds like a convergence issue with red being slightly misconverged to one side.

I don't want to say left or right as I don't know your mounting.

Cheers,

[filmbuff2]

I received my Epson today at work - and I was not tempted to turn it on, although had it been my first pj I'm sure I would have. I will wait until Friday night to set it up and hope the panel alignment is good. There was a a one page invoice included which mentioned calibrating the unit for gamma,color,tint,grayscale,brightness,contrast and RGB channels so I assume it was checked out. Guess I will find out when I actually look at something. By the way, has anyone noticed the "made in China" on the underside? I suppose we can assume that had it been manufactured in Japan it might have been priced higher? I was a bit dejected seeing that thinking if I bought the TW2000 from Japan it would have been made there. Heck, it really comes down to quality control - the Nuforce AVP16 processor I use is well, made in China and is still a great sounding piece for 5.1 and 2 channel stereo. Solid piece too. Guess I shouldn't give it much thought.

[Lee Weber]

Originally Posted by filmbuff2

There was a a one page invoice included which mentioned calibrating the unit for gamma,color,tint,grayscale,brightness,contrast and RGB channels so I assume it was checked out.

From the manufacturer or retailer?? Was this from AVScience store?