directv HR-23 and HR-24 different color space, or range? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 03-26-2014, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure if this is even in the correct section but this is all I could think of to put it

I have 2 directv dvr's in the same room connected to the same TV, the TV is calibrated by me using a Minolta LS-100 and CS-200 and is a Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD

directly connected to the TV with HDMI

I have tried these things with no change

1. swapped HDMI cables

2. swapped HDMI inputs

3. tried component but I couldnt tell if it did anything


I tried composite just to see and it shows up as normal looking through that connector although its only SD the colors seem to be the same but who cares I am not watching that lol

I dont have the minolta meters they are at work but I checked the calibration about 3 months ago and it was fine - however I can probably get the LS-100 and see of the light is the same output but its hard because getting the same thing on both DVR's at the same time is hard its not like a pattern generator I cant use that anyways it would negate the problem since swapping the cables and inputs dont matter


the HR-23 seems to be 0-256 colors where the HR-24 seems to be 16-235

I have noticed a noticeable darker looking scene when I watch on the HR-24 and I have decided to record the same show on each and pause them and compare, the HR-24 looks darker - The Walking Dead looks much darker in some scenes on the HR-24 vs the HR-23

the DVR menu it self also shows slightly darker blacks in the list when showing the shows

I cant get Directv to even understand what I am talking about so this is the last place I can try to get an answer, I am sure someone knows whats up






lastly I want the retro skin back please AVS!

I want the retro skin back please
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post #2 of 8 Old 03-29-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney View Post

I am not sure if this is even in the correct section but this is all I could think of to put it

I have 2 directv dvr's in the same room connected to the same TV, the TV is calibrated by me using a Minolta LS-100 and CS-200 and is a Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD

directly connected to the TV with HDMI

I have tried these things with no change

1. swapped HDMI cables

2. swapped HDMI inputs

3. tried component but I couldnt tell if it did anything


I tried composite just to see and it shows up as normal looking through that connector although its only SD the colors seem to be the same but who cares I am not watching that lol

I dont have the minolta meters they are at work but I checked the calibration about 3 months ago and it was fine - however I can probably get the LS-100 and see of the light is the same output but its hard because getting the same thing on both DVR's at the same time is hard its not like a pattern generator I cant use that anyways it would negate the problem since swapping the cables and inputs dont matter


the HR-23 seems to be 0-256 colors where the HR-24 seems to be 16-235

I have noticed a noticeable darker looking scene when I watch on the HR-24 and I have decided to record the same show on each and pause them and compare, the HR-24 looks darker - The Walking Dead looks much darker in some scenes on the HR-24 vs the HR-23

the DVR menu it self also shows slightly darker blacks in the list when showing the shows

I cant get Directv to even understand what I am talking about so this is the last place I can try to get an answer, I am sure someone knows whats up






lastly I want the retro skin back please AVS!

Believe the HR-23 outputs YCbCr (but you have described normal RGB) and the HR-24 outputs limited RGB (16-235). Unfortunately the HR-24 tells the TV it's outputting full RGB (0-256) and the TV therefore decodes it incorrectly which makes it too black and you lose black detail. I'm not sure about your HR-23 since I don't own one; but everything I've read says the HR-24 500 is the only one outputting RGB. However, if your display gives you the capability to select Low (or something silimar) vs full for RGB; select Low and your HR-24 will be correct. If your HR-23 is outputting YCBCr you are fine; if it's outputting full RGB then you must select "normal" on the display and change this selection each time you alternate between players.

Hope this makes some sense.
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post #3 of 8 Old 03-30-2014, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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just effing great directv has changed something and I might not get it working properly

is there some option in a hidden menu I can change on the directv box?

I am using ISF-Night and ISF-Day picture modes, you have to unlock those with calibration software and after you set it nothing can be changed without the computer all settings are locked in so the remote can only change picture modes not edit the ISF modes - so I will have to get the meters back and do this all over again

I dont want to do that since its a pain and I shouldnt have to do this just to get it working properly the directv box should properly work without me having to change stuff

My Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD has HDMI options and they are

Auto
Color-1 - component 4:2:2
Color-2 - component 4:4:4
Color-3 - RGB 16-235
Color-4 - RGB 0-255

if I set it to the first 2 its not working properly red or green screen which is to be expected since its component 4:2:2 and 4:4:4

the last 2 the RGB ones work fine but if I set it to Color-4 the 0-255 RGB it is way blown out I would have to recalibrate the display which I dont want to have to do just because directv is not working properly

I want the retro skin back please
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post #4 of 8 Old 03-30-2014, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney View Post

just effing great directv has changed something and I might not get it working properly

is there some option in a hidden menu I can change on the directv box?

I am using ISF-Night and ISF-Day picture modes, you have to unlock those with calibration software and after you set it nothing can be changed without the computer all settings are locked in so the remote can only change picture modes not edit the ISF modes - so I will have to get the meters back and do this all over again

I dont want to do that since its a pain and I shouldnt have to do this just to get it working properly the directv box should properly work without me having to change stuff

My Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD has HDMI options and they are

Auto
Color-1 - component 4:2:2
Color-2 - component 4:4:4
Color-3 - RGB 16-235
Color-4 - RGB 0-255

if I set it to the first 2 its not working properly red or green screen which is to be expected since its component 4:2:2 and 4:4:4

the last 2 the RGB ones work fine but if I set it to Color-4 the 0-255 RGB it is way blown out I would have to recalibrate the display which I dont want to have to do just because directv is not working properly

No there is no hidden menu for changing color output.

Presume you have two directv receivers so that you can record 4 channels at once. Have you considered turning both in and getting the HR34 or 44. The 44 has a 1 Tb hard drive and records 5 channels at once. It outputs YCbCr like your HR23 and so I presume you would have no problems. Probably even costs less than monthly rental for the two you have.
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post #5 of 8 Old 03-30-2014, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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yea I was looking into that but I am going to complain more to directv and maybe I can get them to upgrade me for free since every time I call they remind me how they are happy to see me as a long time customer

I could probably upgrade but I dont like this problem and I dont want to loose everything I have recorded and all my series that are set

this must be a hardware problem cuz I assume a software update would fix this

what is the exact cause of this problem so I can talk to directv and explain it so when they email the engineers they know I know what I am talking about - like is it a specific hardware chip on the mobo that only outputs in RGB limited?

thats another thing, if its saying its outputting RGB full and its really limited RGB did they update the software to "lie" so people think its something else wrong not the box

I am really pissed about this, I emailed directv a few months ago about the picture looking darker and they were just being dumb asses and couldnt help me, I spent months trying to figure this out only to find out its probably the directv hardware not my hardware causing this problem

I want the retro skin back please
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post #6 of 8 Old 03-31-2014, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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so the HR-44 is the replacement for the HR-34 is it confirmed that it does not output RGB

like do I want the HR-34 not the HR-44?

I want the retro skin back please
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post #7 of 8 Old 04-02-2014, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I just received an email from directv and they told me that the HR-24 500 is RGB and the HR-24 200 is YCbCr - I have the HR-24 200 at my other house and I will have to check this out to see if its true but I was offered an upgrade to the genie for free but I have to be sure its actually not RGB

I want the retro skin back please
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post #8 of 8 Old 11-28-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by leftkidney 

I am not sure if this is even in the correct section but this is all I could think of to put it

I have 2 directv dvr's in the same room connected to the same TV, the TV is calibrated by me using a Minolta LS-100 and CS-200 and is a Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD

directly connected to the TV with HDMI

I have tried these things with no change

1. swapped HDMI cables

2. swapped HDMI inputs

3. tried component but I couldnt tell if it did anything


I tried composite just to see and it shows up as normal looking through that connector although its only SD the colors seem to be the same but who cares I am not watching that lol

I dont have the minolta meters they are at work but I checked the calibration about 3 months ago and it was fine - however I can probably get the LS-100 and see of the light is the same output but its hard because getting the same thing on both DVR's at the same time is hard its not like a pattern generator I cant use that anyways it would negate the problem since swapping the cables and inputs dont matter


the HR-23 seems to be 0-256 colors where the HR-24 seems to be 16-235

I have noticed a noticeable darker looking scene when I watch on the HR-24 and I have decided to record the same show on each and pause them and compare, the HR-24 looks darker - The Walking Dead looks much darker in some scenes on the HR-24 vs the HR-23

the DVR menu it self also shows slightly darker blacks in the list when showing the shows

I cant get Directv to even understand what I am talking about so this is the last place I can try to get an answer, I am sure someone knows whats up






lastly I want the retro skin back please AVS!


Believe the HR-23 outputs YCbCr (but you have described normal RGB) and the HR-24 outputs limited RGB (16-235). Unfortunately the HR-24 tells the TV it's outputting full RGB (0-256) and the TV therefore decodes it incorrectly which makes it too black and you lose black detail. I'm not sure about your HR-23 since I don't own one; but everything I've read says the HR-24 500 is the only one outputting RGB. However, if your display gives you the capability to select Low (or something silimar) vs full for RGB; select Low and your HR-24 will be correct. If your HR-23 is outputting YCBCr you are fine; if it's outputting full RGB then you must select "normal" on the display and change this selection each time you alternate between players.

Hope this makes some sense.
I think you have it backwards. On Samsung, I believe HDMI Black Level Normal corresponds with limited RGB and not full. HDMI Black Level Low corresponds with full RGB and not limited. I believe that when Samsung labeled this feature they are actually referring to the Level of Black in the picture. Low actually means a lower black which is produced by 0-255. Normal actually means a normal black referring to the normal black level for watching TV which is 16-235.

This is confusing way of labeling because we usually think of Normal RGB as 0-255, however this would only make sense if the feature were listed as RGB level or something like that in the menu. But it is not. The label is actually referring to how deep the black level is in the picture: normal or low.

I too have the black crush problem, but I do not believe it is because the box is outputting full, but telling the TV it is limited (thus defaulting to Normal HDMI Black level which is grayed out in the menu). I just think the box is poorly designed and black crush is a flaw in the output. I am not sure the box tells the TV which one it is receiving. I think the TV receives the signal and decides. I could be wrong, but that is what I am seeing.

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