DVD Recorder LP and EP Speed Resolution - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 09-18-2010, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an older Panasonic DVD recorder model DMR-E55. Anyway it allows slower speed LP and EP which gives 4 and 6/8 hours respectively. I know the slower speeds use more compression to get longer time, but do either LP or EP cut resolution down to 320x280 comparable to VCD discs? Is there a mode that you can get really good 320x280 rez with less compression? Reason I ask is I'd like to archive VHS tapes and it seems a waste to use the full rez of a DVD disc in SP speed, plus you can get more time on the disc since I have recorded some of those VHS tapes in EP speed. VHS is coming off a JVC S-VHS vcr which has Digipure TBC and DNR to clean up the picture.

What is the actual rez of LP and EP speeds? I will be using the 6 hour option on my Panasonic instead of the 8 hour option for EP.

Last question- do all DVD players play LP and EP speed DVD-R discs? I ask because I'd like to know if someone can watch such a disc on any DVD player.
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post #2 of 10 Old 09-18-2010, 06:20 PM
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Here's a section from a CNET Asia review on the E55 that might help?

"As we expected, the Panasonic DMR-E55 delivered video quality superior to VHS and on a par with that of other DVD recorders we've tested. Even in the 4-hour EP mode, recordings looked stable and had well-saturated colors, although blocky MPEG noise tinged the images. The 2-hour SP mode nearly eliminated that problem in the backgrounds, and the 1-hour mode's smooth picture was almost indistinguishable from the original.

A serious difference in resolution separates the SP and EP modes: SP measured 450 lines, while EP came in at barely 230. You should avoid the 6-hour LP mode; it was significantly softer than EP, tended to introduce stutter in pans, and managed barely 200 lines of resolution."
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post #3 of 10 Old 09-18-2010, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there such a thing as a 8.5GB DVD-R disc (not a plus R, but minus R)? I could always use FR flex recording to get 6 hours and 10 minutes of VHS onto one disc if it will work.
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post #4 of 10 Old 09-18-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braxus View Post

I have an older Panasonic DVD recorder model DMR-E55. Anyway it allows slower speed LP and EP which gives 4 and 6/8 hours respectively. I know the slower speeds use more compression to get longer time, but do either LP or EP cut resolution down to 320x280 comparable to VCD discs? Is there a mode that you can get really good 320x280 rez with less compression? Reason I ask is I'd like to archive VHS tapes and it seems a waste to use the full rez of a DVD disc in SP speed, plus you can get more time on the disc since I have recorded some of those VHS tapes in EP speed. VHS is coming off a JVC S-VHS vcr which has Digipure TBC and DNR to clean up the picture.

What is the actual rez of LP and EP speeds? I will be using the 6 hour option on my Panasonic instead of the 8 hour option for EP.

Last question- do all DVD players play LP and EP speed DVD-R discs? I ask because I'd like to know if someone can watch such a disc on any DVD player.

The DMR-E55 is a 2004 model that offers these recording modes as found on page 39 of the DMR-E55 Operating Instructions:

Max. 8 hours (using 4.7 GB disc)
XP: 60 minutes
SP: 120 minutes
LP: 240 minutes
EP: 360 minutes or 480 minutes

It seems to me that Panasonic didn't address recording resolution with 2004 models but others have reported that D1 resolution is found only with the XP and SP recording modes with 2004 and earlier models. The CNET review (quoted and linked by Wajo) misstates the Panasonic recording modes/recording durations.

With Panasonic's 2005 and later model recorders D1 resolution is maintained across the XP (one hour), SP (two hour) and LP (four hour) recording modes. Here is typical information, as found on page 75 of the (2005) DMR-ES30V Operating Instructions:

Video data
Horizontal resolution: More than
XP: 500 lines SP: 500 lines
LP: 500 lines EP: 250 lines
Signal to Noise Ratio: More than 45 dB
Frequency Response: XP, SP: 0 dB ±3 dB at 4 MHz (0 dB at 0.1 MHz),
(Fine mode)
LP, EP: 0 dB ±3 dB at 2 MHz (0 dB at 0.1 MHz),
(Fine mode)

Audio data
Dynamic Range: Rec/PB: more than 90 dB
DVD-Video PB (with LPCM): more than 96 dB
CD PB: more than 96 dB
Frequency Response: XP, SP, LP, EP (6H mode): 20 Hz to 20 kHz (0 dB ±3 dB)
EP (8H mode): 20 Hz to 12 kHz (0 dB ±3 dB)
Cross Talk: More than 60 dB at 1 kHz

Panasonic resolution and bitrates have been addressed in some detail by Jeff, ClearToLand and others. These discussions are found in several threads. Here is one of those threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1259214

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post #5 of 10 Old 09-18-2010, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Would a DMR-ES25 be similar to the DMR-ES30 in terms of resolution? I checked the manual- but don't see the specs listed that you mentioned the 30 does. The 30 is a 2005 model, while the 25 is a 2006 which by your previous statement should be the same?
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post #6 of 10 Old 09-19-2010, 06:24 AM
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In '06(ES-25) Panasonic increased resolution to 720x480 for XP-LP, '05(ES-30v) XP-LP was 704x480, truthfully I never noticed a difference between the two.
As mentioned, before '05(the E55) dropped to half resolution using FR somewhere between SP and LP. I say somewhere because I've never owned a pre-'05 Panasonic and I don't believe I've ever been given or read a hard switchover point. Using preset speeds it happens from SP to LP.
In your case if you want 1/2 D1 then LP might be a good choice, that or EP6/8.
As the Cnet reviewer said(but used the wrong letters) their will be a serious drop in picture quality between SP and LP(not EP as said). The resolution going to EP6 or EP8 will be the same but the bitrate will be lowered. Dropping to EP8 also reduces the audio quality.

I see where you're coming from, thinking that tape is less resolution than DVD so why tie up resources on resolution instead of bandwidth. Only you personally can answer that question for yourself. Myself I prefer full D1 even coming from VHS(albeit good quality tapes recorded in SP). When I did experiments I just didn't like 1/2 D1 and would live with a little macroblocking, but that's me, you may be different.
If you prefer 1/2 D1 for your conversions then I think you have a better Panasonic recorder than '05 and beyond. Once you figure the switchover point then just make sure to never go under it, that or use EP6 to be sure.
It would sure be easier if mfgs. would just have a simple setting for full or 1/2 D1, that way there would be no guessing. But alas I know of none that do, even the highly touted do-everything XS series Toshibas of yesteryear don't have such a setting.
Again if you prefer 1/2 D1 then DON'T think about the ES-25, with that model you have to use EP6 or FR set for more than 4hrs with a new DVD. Most any other brand other than Panasonic(or Pioneer) would be a better choice for you.

I suggest you do some serious testing and playing with various speeds. Pay particular attention to areas of fast movement(running water, strobe lights or falling confetti work good). Early on I made the mistake of recording a stationary image and decided to use LP since it looked basically the same as SP. Only after making 20?? conversions and reviewing those DVDs did I learn about a starved bitrate. Since then I've redone all those recordings using FR set for 3hrs or less. Lately my max setting is ~2hrs 42 minutes but I still use higher or even LP for things like extras, just not the main movie.
Check out the link on my signature for info on older Panasonics, including resolutions.

Ty makes -R DL media but your E55 will not record to it, only '06 and beyond Panasonics record to DL media. Unless it's the only choice I would not suggest recording on DL media. Besides being more expensive it has more hassles than regular R DVDs.
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post #7 of 10 Old 09-20-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braxus View Post

Is there such a thing as a 8.5GB DVD-R disc (not a plus R, but minus R)? I could always use FR flex recording to get 6 hours and 10 minutes of VHS onto one disc if it will work.

Not to be TOO pedantic about it, but no one makes a "minus R" DVD of ANY kind. It's called a "Dash R" and the manufacturers get really testy whenever they hear "-R" called "minus R".

now, to answer the intent of your question, YES, JVC (also known these days as Taiyo-Yuden) makes a DVD -R DL blank. They are available in a lot of on-line places like Supermediastore here, Rima here, and others.

Never call it "minus R" ESPECIALLY when on the telephone with someone from these manufacturers. They can really take offense!

Of course, as has been mentioned above, your machine cannot used these disks.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #8 of 10 Old 09-20-2010, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff- Am I to understand my E55 will give a better result from VHS tapes because the lines of resolution are less, therefore giving more room for compression? And the opposite would be to use the E25 with more rez, but less room for compression?
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post #9 of 10 Old 09-20-2010, 12:50 PM
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That's correct but whether you prefer 1/2 resolution with less compression or full resolution with more compression, only you can say.
It's a no brainer(to me) if recording from a full resolution DVD I want to keep the full resolution, but with VHS and it's rather low resolution that may be a different story. It also depends on your TV, connections and equipment. A sharp player hooked to a larger HDTV will notice any drop in resolution while a smaller CRT may show blocking more than any loss in resolution.

Luke, $1.20 isn't a bad price for a good DL DVD and even better since it's a Taiyo Yuden(JVC). If I didn't already have so many Verb 2.4x +R DL(purchased for a steal at Sams) I'd probably buy a few spindles.
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post #10 of 10 Old 09-20-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Luke, $1.20 isn't a bad price for a good DL DVD and even better since it's a Taiyo Yuden(JVC). If I didn't already have so many Verb 2.4x +R DL(purchased for a steal at Sams) I'd probably buy a few spindles.

Those are only the two that immediately came to mind. They aren't the only vendors that carry these, heck, they might not even be the best prices. I haven't done a search. I have used about two 10 disk spindles and have had no problems at all. They aren't better than the Verb +R DL disks, nor do they burn faster in my EH55, but at least for the moment, they don't appear to be inferior. Time will tell.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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