Point of origin for media - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I know that this has been asked and answered in the past, but does anyone have CURRENT information about media quality and manufacture location? I was looking at buying some more Verbatim DVD+R DL DataLife Plus disks, and several retailers have them. The photographs of the product show "Made in Singapore" but in a few cases where feedback is posted, people were commenting that the disks they got after ordering were either made in Taiwan or India. At one site, someone said that the Singapore disks are old stock, and the only ones you will find now are Taiwan and India.

Is there any truth to this? Are the Taiwan and India manufactured disks inferior to the Singapore ones, or are all Verbatim disks of the same quality?

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 11:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
wajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 132
#2 here might be of interest.

Note: Linked page was created in 2007 but the content is constantly updated, so it's 2010/2011 info for the most part.
wajo is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 02:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
greaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Well knock on wood! My latest batch of Verb.DLP+8X (6 50ct.spindles made in Taiwan)have all burned just fine,no problems. I read Citibear's post before he deleted it,and if what he said about the Verb.DLP+discs maybe going bad then finding good quality discs may become a problem,especially IF the JVC-TY discs are starting to lose their quality.Some people seem to be having more problems with the JVC-TY discs than they used to,but maybe those are only anecdotal experiences and JVC-TY discs are as high quality as they always were.Time will tell. G.
greaser is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,024
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 49
You're quick, greaser: I deleted my post 30 secs after I wrote it yet you still managed to read it!

I deleted it because I realized too late that ChurchAVGuy was asking about DL discs, not standard SL discs. My reply concerned the "emperor no longer has a stitch of clothing" situation Verbatim is now in with their random spotty SL quality. My experience with the DL is much more limited: AFAIK the conventional wisdom of "Singapore good, anywhere else very bad" still applies to the Verb +R DL discs. But thats relative depending on your hardware: many people here have no issues at all burning every CMC-made SL disc perfectly, despite their generally poor quality, and we have tons of members burning Memorex DVD-R DL discs without a hiccup despite their horrendous reputation. Its certainly possible to get decent burns on Taiwan or India sourced Verb +DL using a Panasonic recorder: if the burner is still in top condition it can overcome any minor media issues.

Whether the burn would be quite as archival as one made on the old Singapore media is another question, but we have less and less choice in these matters. Verbatim is no longer staking itself on a reputation for flawless quality, they're in it for a quick buck just like all the other brands now. Even TY has been getting a bit sloppy since the JVC rebranding. We just have to roll with it, test where we can, and hope for the best.
CitiBear is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Like the post wajo referenced, most of the data I found in my research is from around 2007, which was four years ago. I was wondering if things have changed recently. many people report the Tawain disks are very good indeed, but I was wondring...

CitiBear, repost your messge. I was specifically asking about DL disks only because I have 2000 T-Y DVD -R disks on a couple of shelves at home, so not worried just yet about getting more of them. That does not suggest that SL disks are not appropriate for this thread.

Are Verb. made in Singapore DLP+ DLs available anywhere anymore? Does anyone have a source?

Oh, and thanks, everyone.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 04:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
wajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 132
My post may have been dated 2007 but the internal info is constantly updated so it has 2010/2011 info for the most part.
wajo is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 05:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 9,649
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

Are Verb. made in Singapore DLP+ DLs available anywhere anymore? Does anyone have a source?

All my Verb DLs are made in Singapore but they were purchased a few years ago when Sams was blowing out their Verbs in favor of Memorex
If I remember correctly I paid $30 for 50 2.4x Verb +R DL and stocked up with 1/2 dozen spindles, I still have almost 5 left so I should be set for several years and my minimal usage of DL media.
jjeff is online now  
post #8 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Since Verbatim single layer talk is OK in this thread.

I just checked the last 50 pack of "SL" Verbatim AZO 16x-R I purchased. I can't tell you the quality of these discs as I haven't tried them out yet but I can tell you that on the package seal it states Made in India as seen in the enclosed made-in-india-seal.jpg

The previous 50 pack of "SL" Verbatim AZO 16x-R I purchased are burning nice. No coasters and so far no short-term archive related problems. On that package seal it states Made in Taiwan as seen in the enclosed made-in-taiwan-seal.jpg

I don't know were my older Verbatim AZO 16x-R discs were manufactured as I no longer have the package seal and the manufacture country is not stated in the media-id.

The media-id for both the Taiwanese and the Indian disks are MCC 03RG20 as seen in the azo-mid-india.jpg and azo-mid-taiwan.jpg. Note that the media ID claims that this discs can burn at up to 22x speeds and unfortunately I have confirmed this using my LG PC burner and Nero software.

Does anyone know if the manufacture country can be found by some info in the media-id itself?
LL
LL
LL
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 07:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,024
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

CitiBear, repost your message.

It was a recap of Verbatim's recent slide into becoming just another me-too roll-the-dice brand instead of the go-to, highly compatible, easily burnable brand they once were. The 16x SL AZOs went from dependable to a crapshoot within two years, then got replaced entirely at retailers by CMC-formulated "Life" series discs. The once-impeccable 8x SL DataLifePlus media that was comparable to TY in consistency is now subject to the same "spindle lottery" as the 16x AZO: if you get a good one, they're great, if you get a bad one they're even worse than Memorex. The typical Memorex disc that gets rejected by a DVD recorder will almost always be accepted for burning by a PC, but lately the bad Verbatim discs won't even burn in a PC: they're 100% useless coasters.

I'd heard reports of this on other forums, then got "burned" by the issue myself when I ordered several hundred Verb 8x SL DataLifePlus a few months ago- I didn't test them right away, and discovered too late that two of the ten 50-paks were completely defective: every single disc on both spindles. Thats 100 discs I had to eat because I was several weeks past the vendor return period. All my Pioneer and Magnavox DVD/HDD recorders rejected them as "CANNOT USE THIS DISC," and my PCs with Pioneer and Samsung burners (as well as the Macs with Matsushita drives) would spin for a minute then just refuse to load them in any program.

These were the #94852 8x Silver DVD-R SL Verbatims, DataLifePlus, made in Taiwan, usual MCC ID code. Never had a single failed disc with any 8x SL Verbatim before this, so encountering two entire spindles with no usable discs was a rude surprise. I should have seen it coming, given Verbatim has moved almost completely to having OEMs make their discs instead of using their own factories and staff, but I figured that was only an issue with the 16x. Guess it applies to the 8x now as well. Just like with the recent TY/JVC disappointments, we need to carefully test at least two discs from each Verbatim spindle as soon as we get 'em, so any bad batches can be identified and possibly exchanged. The +DL Verbatims are still mfr'd under slightly better supervision, even in Taiwan and India, so should still be a better bet than other DL brands. Since the Singapore source seems to have closed down, we have no choice anyway: just be sure to test a couple from each pkg before putting them into storage.
CitiBear is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 07:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
wajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Here's a graphic from a German forum in 2006 with disc code layout... might help some... factory is there in some cryptic form... then again, maybe only for German discs ?
wajo is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 08:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

The 16x SL AZOs went from dependable to a crapshoot within two years, then got replaced entirely at retailers by CMC-formulated "Life" series discs.

Not in Canada.
London Drugs among other retailers sells the AZO verbs and regularly has them on sale. I buy the 50 packs for $12.99 a couple times a year and thus far they seem to burn good with my 780 and my PC. I will try a couple of my newest Indian manufactured AZOs the next time I archive something. I will report back in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Here's a graphic from a German forum in 2006 with disc code layout... might help some... factory is there in some cryptic form... then again, maybe only for German discs ?

I bet there is a way to figure out the factory by looking at the raw data - if I only knew how to figure it out.
Super Eye is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Hey all, thanks for the info. It has been very helpful. I wish the news were better, but it is, what it is.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 10:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
doswonk1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: No Man's Land Bet. Des Moines & Iowa City
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

The once-impeccable 8x SL DataLifePlus media that was comparable to TY in consistency is now subject to the same "spindle lottery" as the 16x AZO: if you get a good one, they're great, if you get a bad one they're even worse than Memorex. The typical Memorex disc that gets rejected by a DVD recorder will almost always be accepted for burning by a PC, but lately the bad Verbatim discs won't even burn in a PC: they're 100% useless coasters.

I'd heard reports of this on other forums, then got "burned" by the issue myself when I ordered several hundred Verb 8x SL DataLifePlus a few months ago- I didn't test them right away, and discovered too late that two of the ten 50-paks were completely defective: every single disc on both spindles. Thats 100 discs I had to eat because I was several weeks past the vendor return period.

just be sure to test a couple from each pkg before putting them into storage.

Oh swell. I've noticed Supermediastore having Verb DataLifePlus 8x -Rs with white printable tops on sale at unusually low prices (for this line) lately. I've probably picked up 300 or so in the last 6 months.

The real question is what's going to give out first: our DVDRs or the supply of decent-quality media to burn on them?
doswonk1 is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 03:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
CitiBear's post last night scared the crap out of me so I archived a VHS concert I had sitting on my HDD for a while. Prepped it and HSD'd it to one of the Indian manufactured AZO 16x discs from my newest 50 pack. I am happy to report that my two-year-old RDR-HX780 had no issues burning the disc and in fact was very quiet while HSD dubbing.

I ran a total of five tests on this Indian manufactured AZO disk and am happy to report it passed all 5 tests with flying colors.

The tests:

1)) Visual inspection of the disc:
Result = No abnormal colouring. Disc looks normal.

2)) Playback of disc in my stand-alone player:
Results = No freezing, skipping or blocking. Disc played flawlessly from beginning to end.

Tests 3 - 4 - 5:
Although not an exact science but from the various discs I scanned in the past and from talking with others, I have learned how to analyze the results.

3) PC CD DVD quality test. (Enclosed picture AZO-India-Quality.jpg)
(With this test the disc should have minimal failures and errors along with a high quality score.)

Scan reports a very good burn. In fact comparing this burn to past discs I scanned I have to say that this burn is average from my other AZO burns.

4) PC CD DVD benchmark test. (Enclosed picture AZO-India-BenchMark.jpg)
(With this test the read speed should steadily climb from beginning to end without hesitation, as hesitation would indicate trouble reading certain spots)

Scan reports a very good burn with a steady read speed climb without any hesitation.

5) PC CD DVD Scandisk test. (Enclosed picture AZO-India-Scan.jpg)
This test is basically the same as your typical windows HDD scan disc test. It checks for physical errors in the sectors of the disk and it also checks for bad sectors in the disc)

Scan reports zero physical damage in the disc.

These tests are only guidelines but I have to say that by physically examining the disc, playing the disc in another stand-alone and doing various PC checks - one does get a basic idea of the condition of the burn and the disc after combining ALL your results. The first disc out of my newest batch of 16X (Indian manufactured) Verbs passed with flying colours. Maybe in a few years I will dig up this thread and update this report with a longevity test.

-------------------

Getting back to the post by CitiBear that scared the crap out of me I think one of three things happened.

1)) The online vendor is careless with handling.
I have seen first hand some vendors pilling up heavy stuff on top of sealed 50 packs of discs. I will never buy from those vendors. Those careless vendors need to realize that you cannot pile 500 pounds of crap on top of discs. I know space is a priority but vendors should not expect fragile little discs to burn properly after they have 500 pounds of weight piled on top of em. Sometimes someone else down the line in shipping could be to blame. This is why I prefer to walk into a store when I buy discs. I like to see how they handle and stock the discs and I'd like to be able to walk back in and return the discs if need be.

IMO the above is the most likely cause of CitiBear's bad experience and I would change vendors.


2)) The online vendor is a fraud.
I have read on the internet that some of the no-name online vendors sell Asian knock-off discs and they are not genuine verb discs and the fraudsters even counterfeit the media-id.


3)) Bad batch of discs.
Could happen but usually it's tens of thousands of bad discs in a batch not just a few hundred. If this is the case you would think that a big co. like Verbatim would make a public recall to save their reputation.
LL
LL
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 08:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
FullOnShred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My admittedly limited use of Made in India 16x AZO Verbs has been very satisfactory. Some of the cleanest post burn scans I have seen from my equipment.
FullOnShred is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 11:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

3) PC CD DVD quality test. (Enclosed picture AZO-India-Quality.jpg) (With this test the disc should have minimal failures and errors along with a high quality score.)

I don't trust any disk I've burned no matter what the media is unless it scores well on this test (of course my good ol' 8X TYG08 disks never have a problem).

I'm curious how you managed a quality score of 96% with such high PI Failure rate though. My copy of Nero DiscSpeed shows a quality score of 90% when it finds any sector with a PI Failure count of 4. I use this as my cutoff point because the organization of inner and outer parity checksums is such that the outer parity can recover any combination of 4 or less inner parity errors. It can and almost always does recover from substantially more errors than that, but if you have no more than 4 then you're 100% safe.
Sean Nelson is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 06:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Nelson View Post

I don't trust any disk I've burned no matter what the media is unless it scores well on this test (of course my good ol' 8X TYG08 disks never have a problem).

I'm curious how you managed a quality score of 96% with such high PI Failure rate though. My copy of Nero DiscSpeed shows a quality score of 90% when it finds any sector with a PI Failure count of 4. I use this as my cutoff point because the organization of inner and outer parity checksums is such that the outer parity can recover any combination of 4 or less inner parity errors. It can and almost always does recover from substantially more errors than that, but if you have no more than 4 then you're 100% safe.

My guess is that the results are interpreted slightly different between different PC set-ups. That's why I never compare my disc results against results that were scanned using different PC-setups. However I can compare various disc scans against each other using my same set-up. And I have. I just dug through my archives and found five Taiyo Yuden 8x discs with Media-ID TYG02 that I acquired in a rare concert trade back in the summer of 2007.

I compared the five Taiyo Yuden 8x (TYG02) discs to my newly archived Verbatim 16x AZO (MCC 03RG20) disc and my Indian manufactured 16x AZO beat out 3 of the 5 Taiyo Yuden 8x discs, tied one of the Taiyo Yuden 8x discs and only one of the Taiyo Yuden 8x discs reported better results than the Indian manufactured 16x AZO Verbatim disc.
Granted that the Taiyo Yudens are 4-year-old-archives and the AZO Verbatim is a fresh archive but still

Please note that the second disc I scanned (TaiyoYuden-2-DirtClean .jpg) was dirty and after cleaning I re-scanned with slightly better results proving that my set-up is indeed reporting errors when it has a hard time reading the surface due to dirt. All other discs were cleaned prior to scanning.

See screen grabs.
  • TaiyoYuden-1 .jpg
    (The verb reports better results)

    TaiyoYuden-2-DirtClean .jpg
    (Upper pic scanned with dirt Lower picture scanned after cleaning)
    (The verb reports better results)

    TaiyoYuden-3 .jpg
    (The verb reports better results)

    TaiyoYuden-4 .jpg
    (This scan beat the Verb results)

    TaiyoYuden-Verb-5- .jpg
    (This scan of the TY disc pretty well tied the results of the 16X AZO verb as seen in this duel image)


I'm curious Sean, would you mind posting a screen grab of one of your burns?
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 07:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Since screen grabs #2 and #5 were so small I am reposting those.

1= TY dirty and clean scans
2- Ty and Azo scans are a tie.
LL
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

I'm curious Sean, would you mind posting a screen grab of one of your burns?

For me, this is a good burn from one of my 8X TY discs:




And this is a bad burn to a TY disc that turned out to have some gunk near the edge of the disc:

Sean Nelson is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I see why my Indian manufactured AZO scored a 96. Even though my system reported a few more PI Failures, my system reported way less errors than your burn.
My AZO
PI Errors:
Average: 0.07
Maximum: 7
Total: 1216
---------------
PI Failures:
Average: 0.00
Maximum: 7
Total: 615

As your good burn reported
PI Errors:
Average: 2.00
Maximum: 22
Total: 34248
---------------
PI Failures:
Average: 0.00
Maximum: 3
Total: 440

That's tens of thousands of fewer errors reported with my AZO. I'm not saying that my burns have tens of thousands of fewer errors but like I said in a previous post - I do think that the results are interpreted slightly different between different PC set-ups. That's why I never compare my disc results against results that were scanned using different PC-setups. However I can compare various disc scans against each other using my same set-up. As I have compared my AZO 16x burns against my TY 8x burns and clearly my AZO burns seem to score better.

Here is one of my bad burns burned on my 780. Note, it's a RITECF1 media-ID with a score of 88 with a whopping 1746830 PI errors reported.
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #21 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 02:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,024
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 49
It wasn't my intent to "scare" anyone with my report of a (really) bad batch of Verbatim 8x AZO DataLifePlus, just to remind everyone none of these mfrs is 100% dedicated to flawless QC anymore: some less-than-stellar spindles do escape the various factories so we need to test each pkg we get. SuperEye had an interesting suggestion that there may have been shipping or storage issues that exposed my bad spindles to some sort of environmental damage- that sounds plausible and would explain how every single disc in two spindles could have been rendered completely unrecognizable to any drive I tried (very unusual with any disc type and unheard of with DataLifePlus).

Those of you getting superlative burns loading current 16x Verb AZO in your DVD recorders have me green with envy- I swore off the 16x Verbs for good back in 2009 when I found every second disc would fail midway thru the burn or at the finalization stage in all of my recorders (Pioneer, Magnavox, even the Panasonic while I had it). Didn't matter what vintage of recorder- couldn't get the 16x Verbs to burn worth a damn (although they work OK in my PCs). Every few months when there's a great sale on the Verb 16x, I try another spindle from another store, only to experience the same problems and end up selling them to friends for PC use. The recorder burn test results posted here are really impressive, but sadly won't apply to those whose units choke on 16x AZO before they finish burning.

IMHO, SuperEye has been incredibly fortunate that his Sony RDR-HX780 burns anything he throws at it flawlessly, with no hiccups or errors during constant use over the past couple years. The Pioneers I own (with the same Sony burner in them) all gave up the ghost on 16x media within a year-14 months after purchase, after which they only tolerate 8x TY or 8x Verbs. I'm beginning to wonder if Sony didn't stick Pioneer with a "poison pill" version of the burner during their coproduction agreement: its odd that the "crippled" (no RAM features) version in the 780 is so much more compatible with 16x AZO than the "premium" version of the Sony multidrive used in the equivalent Pioneers. (And I've been thru many, many Pioneers during my massive VHS dubbing project.)

My Magnavox H2160 and MDR513 are unpredictable with 16x AZO as well, yet they don't have the Sony/Pio burner, so who knows. They will burn most other random 16x I've tested but they don't like the Verb 16x AZO at all, only the 8x DataLifePlus AZO. If I hadn't read a number of similar reports from other recorder owners, I'd be afraid my house was surrounded by some kind of weird magnetic-infrared-16x-AZO-corrupting field.
CitiBear is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 05:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
CitiBear, when I said that your post scared the crap out of me I meant it in a good way. It made me open up my 50 pack and check a disc. I will also take your advice and from now on check a couple of discs out of every new batch I buy. I always appreciate all of your tips, tricks and advise although it doesn't mean I will always follow on all your advise but every bit of your info is ALWAYS appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

IMHO, SuperEye has been incredibly fortunate that his Sony RDR-HX780 burns anything he throws at it flawlessly, with no hiccups or errors during constant use over the past couple years. The Pioneers I own (with the same Sony burner in them) all gave up the ghost on 16x media within a year-14 months after purchase, after which they only tolerate 8x TY or 8x Verbs. I'm beginning to wonder if Sony didn't stick Pioneer with a "poison pill" version of the burner during their coproduction agreement: its odd that the "crippled" (no RAM features) version in the 780 is so much more compatible with 16x AZO than the "premium" version of the Sony multidrive used in the equivalent Pioneers. (And I've been thru many, many Pioneers during my massive VHS dubbing project.) :

To be honest lately I haven't thrown anything but 16x AZO verbs in my Sony. I don't trust the CMC or RITEK media. I can't believe that SONY would poison the burners intended for the Pioneers. Sony and Pioneer had a relationship at least since Sony produced (IMHO) the best VCR ever the SLHF900 SuperBeta and let Pioneer clone it as the VC90.

I can understand Sony crippling the RAM capability, as Sony always hated everything invented by JVC or Panasonic. Not only did they have the consumer VCR format wars but as you know even today Sony and Panasonic are the two top manufactures and rivals in the broadcast and production manufacturing of cameras, decks and formats. I can understand that Sony didn't want to pay even one cent per unit to Panasonic for licensing of the RAM record feature. Although my manual claims that my 780 will playback RAM discs - probably Panasonic didn't want licensing fees for playback only as Panasonic must want as many compatible players out there as possible.

I do believe that it's possible that Sony's burning strategy in the firmware may differ from Pioneers firmware burning strategy. But kjbawc has reported numerous times in this forum that his Pioneer 640 has burned thousands of 16x Verb AZO discs with only 2 or so coasters. Perhaps you have burned tens of thousands of discs on your Pioneers CitiBear and that's why now they only accept 8x media? To be fair I have thus far only burned a couple hundred discs (mostly 16x AZO) on my 780 and 99 percent of those are HSD mode burns. I never play back discs on my 780, in fact I don't even check my burns on my 780 because I don't care if they play on it. I only care if they play on other players. I do use the unit a lot for time shifting but its not like in the VCR days that I use one unit for recording, time shifting and playback of all my tapes.

BTW, In my service manual it states to suspect a weak laser only after 4,700 hrs of use and my deck has maybe 50 hrs of use? I don't know how to measure the hrs but if I burned 200 discs at HSD = 15 minute per disc X 200 = 50hrs?

Quote:
If the total hours of duration of emission of the laser diode (LD) for DVDs while reading 2 and that of emission of the LD for DVDs while writing 3 exceed 4,700 hours, the LDs may be degraded.

Again CitiBear I appreciate all your great info and when I said your post scared me - I meant it in a positive way.
Super Eye is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 09-18-2011, 10:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post
I see why my Indian manufactured AZO scored a 96. Even though my system reported a few more PI Failures, my system reported way less errors than your burn.
Actually, looking back at your images, I think the difference in the "quality score" likely has to do with the fact that you do your scans at maximum speed and I do mine at minimum speed. I strongly suspect that Nero uses a different algorithm to compute its quality value for the two cases.

The reason I say this is that the PI error rates I see when scanning at minimum speed have absolutely no affect on the quality scores I get. The only metric that affects the quality score is the maximum number of PI failures. No failures (which I've never seen) = 100, one failure = 98, two failures = 95, three failures = 93, four failures = 90, and so on. I have disks with almost 300,000 PI errors that still get a 98 quality score because they have few PI failures.

This makes sense, because PI errors are correctable. Its PI Failures that are most significant, because they mean that the inner parity ECC codes weren't able to correct the data and it falls to the second-level outer ECC parity to "save the day".

I chose to scan at minimum speed because I found too much variability when scanning at higher speeds. I could scan the same disc at high speed twice in a row and get error counts that differed by 30 to 50%. So I concluded that as a tool for determining whether my discs were degrading there was too much "noise" to see if there were any clear trends. Scanning at minimum speed also gives variations, but they're closer to the 10-15% range and so there's less "noise" to obscure any trends.
Sean Nelson is offline  
post #24 of 27 Old 09-18-2011, 05:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I have to admit that I don't know much about inner parity ECC codes or second-level outer ECC parity - that's over my head. But I can tell you that in the past I tried scanning my discs in various ways and the front speed setting doesn't do much difference in how my set-up reads the errors.

I have re-scanned my Indian manufactured 16x AZO with the front panel speed set at 1x CLV - which is the slowest speed with my version of DVD-SPEED.

The results:
New scan set at Min speed on front display tab:
(See AZO-ReScan.jpg)

PI Errors:
Average: 0.07
Maximum: 7
Total: 1110

PI Failures:
Average: 0.00
Maximum: 6
Total: 542

Score: 97

Old scan set at Max speed on front display tab:
(See AZO-India-Quality.jpg)

PI Errors:
Average: 0.07
Maximum: 7
Total: 1216

PI Failures:
Average: 0.00
Maximum: 7
Total: 615

Score: 96


Please note that the rescan reported slightly better results with the slower scan speed. Realistically there isn't any real-world difference between the two scans. I mean from 1216 to 1110 PI errors and from 615 to 542 PI failures. That's nothing considering there are potentially millions and millions of errors a disc can have and still play back - as seen with my rejected RITEC disc that reported well over a million PI errors (1,746,830) and still played back. (See image heart-church.jpg) Also note that on my slowest speed the disc was scanned at 0.51x (half speed) and on my max speed setting the disc was scanned at 2.01x (double speed) and Sean's disc was scanned at 0.97x (around real-time speed) IMHO Shouldn't really make that much difference with any decent PC burner set-up

There is one more, more crucial speed setting in the advance tab (See AZO-ReScan.jpg) and I always keep that setting in the middle but I find that that setting doesn't do all that much difference either but I like to keep it in the middle position.

One more thing. Sean's disc check program is version 4.7.7.0 My newest version is 4.7.7.16 and I wonder if that has any barring on the results? Although my bet is that the difference reported is because my set-up differs from Sean's PC set-up.
LL
LL
LL
Super Eye is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 09:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Interesting. The scans I posted are older ones, I'm now using Nero Discspeed version 4.11.5.0 and it still behaves the same way I described earlier. With mine, when I click the "Settings" drop-down list I don't see any CLV options at all.

Looking a little more closely at the drive info below the window caption, it looks like your drive is a DVD-RAM drive? Mine isn't, so perhaps that's the source of the difference between our results...
Sean Nelson is offline  
post #26 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 05:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Nelson View Post

it looks like your drive is a DVD-RAM drive? Mine isn't, so perhaps that's the source of the difference between our results...

Yes it's a RAM drive.
My super-multi will read/write DVD-RAM, DVD-R/RW/DL, DVD+R/RW/DL, CD-R/RW. A really good burner for $20.

In the last 3 years I owned it I burned around 500 discs total. Mostly DVD-RW 2x stuff I can't get on regular TV and time-shift from the internet, some DVD-R 16x archives and a few hundred CD-R 12x to 52x discs of music I archived.
Super Eye is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 03-17-2012, 07:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
In case anyone cares I just purchased a fresh 50-pack spindle of 16x AZO verbs for $12.99 from LD. This 50-pack has a manufacture origin Made in Taiwan. My previous 50-pack spindle (same place of purchase) had a manufacture origin Made in India. The 50-pack before that spindle (same place of purchase) had a manufacture origin Made in Taiwan. My point is that the discs could come from either country or maybe even from the UAE or Singapore plants.

The good news is that digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media still rates the AZO verbatim discs as the #1 choice, even higher than their #2 choice, the JVC Taiyo Yuden discs. And according to digitalfaq it doesn't matter what country's plant the AZOs come from as they give the India, UAE, Singapore and Taiwan made AZO discs the same #1 rating.

I will take Citibear's past advise and crack them open to check a couple just to make sure they burn as good as all my previous AZO discs.
Super Eye is offline  
Reply DVD Recorders (Standard Def)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off