Recorder Market Is Unsettled Everywhere, Not Just USA/Canada Anymore - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 05:31 PM
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I'm not pimping TiVo to anyone. I don't own one and I don't care one way or another if people buy one. I'm just sick of this "OMG, TIVO COULD GO UNDER AND RAPE YOUR CAT DO NOT WANT DO NOT WANT" chicken little crap that I've heard over and over FOR TEN YEARS. Time to give it a rest. The record is broken. Sh*t or get off the pot.

It's outlasted DVD recorders at the very least.

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post #32 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 05:41 PM
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Sounds like you care a lot more than you are willing to admit.
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post #33 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 05:51 PM
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Yeah, I'm a regular TiVo crusader. Even got a mask and cape, and regularly do battle with my arch-nemesis, Misinformation Man.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
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post #34 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

But seeing you are just another in the long line of people that try and pimp Tivo to others, you don't want to admit to seeing any possibility that they could indeed fail at some time.

I was going to stay out of this, but that's really unfair. When Replay stopped selling boxes the guide was picked up and continued by someone else. If it wasn't for the DTV transition and their lack of digital tuners they would still be in use today. I suspect the same would happen should TiVo get bought out (far more likely than them going under and disappearing). Can anyone guarantee anything -- of course not. I paid my money and I take my chances, just like the people who bought Sony DHG's that are now becoming bricks with the slow demise of TVGOS. I'm not really worried about my TiVo becoming a brick.

Yes, I am a TiVo owner and have no problem recommending it -- no surprise. It's not an issue of "pimping". TiVo is a high-end piece of equipment with a combination of features that set it apart. Features that people ask for -- so we tell them about a box that will do what they want. What other stand-alone box can you buy outright in the US that records OTA and cable HD/5.1 with cable-card functionality, full integrated OTA/cable EPG, name-based recording, advanced scheduling, remote scheduling over the web from your smart-phone; expandable internal storage or plug-in external storage; full suite of Internet media sites including Netflix and Blockbuster VOD; can stream recorded content between two TiVos; can stream content from network storage, i.e. ripped DVD's; allows network transfer of any unprotected recorded content in original HD/5.1 to PC for network storage, editing and/or burning to any kind of disk your PC can support -- now and in the future.

People want these features, they just don't want to pay the asking price for them. The biggest problem with a TiVo is that it cost $600. People are used to sub-$300 minimalist equipment and can't stomach the thought of paying that much for high-end gear. Yet they'll spend as much buying 2-3 low end boxes and crow about how they'll never pay that much for a TiVo then trash it.

- kelson h

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post #35 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

What other stand-alone box can you buy outright in the US that records OTA and cable HD/5.1 with cable-card functionality, full integrated OTA/cable EPG, name-based recording, advanced scheduling, remote scheduling over the web from your smart-phone; expandable internal storage or plug-in external storage; full suite of Internet media sites including Netflix and Blockbuster VOD; can stream recorded content between two TiVos; can stream content from network storage, i.e. ripped DVD's; allows network transfer of any unprotected recorded content in original HD/5.1 to PC for network storage, editing and/or burning to any kind of disk your PC can support -- now and in the future.

Wow.....that's some feature set. I paid $650 for my first DVDR with its 120 gig HDD. About the only thing the TiVO doesn't have is the ability to burn a DVD directly. I've never paid that much attention to TiVO because disc burning is a big deal for me, but if you're mostly into time-shifting, want to enjoy your time-shifted content in full HD, and don't mind bringing the PC into the equation to burn the occasional archive disc, that really is a pretty good deal.

Keep the thing 5 years and it's costing you 10 bucks a month. Skip a couple fast-food lunches a month, and you've got it covered.....

I went the HDD DVDR route because at the time it seemed right for me, but I will freely admit that the total amount of scratch I've spent on my Pannies and Pios and Maggies would have bought a sweet HTPC or two. (I just would've never had the time to learn how to use it properly!)

Does TiVO have any provision for setting a timer manually or is it a brick without its guide?
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post #36 of 289 Old 01-24-2012, 10:10 PM
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I probably would have eventually sprung for a Tivo with lifetime if the new crop of PC tuner and networked cable card devices hadn't come out recently. I'm also in the crowd of don't want to pay yet more per month even though my cable bill is somewhat up there now but I like my hi speed internet, unlimited long distance phone, and all my favorite cable shows in HD so I stay put for now. I still pay less then I did before for worse phone service and no HD or movie channels on cable.
I have and used one of the first Philips 3575 units, bought a extra, and have a set top LG 4200 a clear QAM and OTA tuner, plus a HDTV card in here so I've been playing a while, my first unit was a Panasonic E80H that I loved.
I liked not having to rent a box and be able to record and edit anything that came in with the Philips but that pretty much no longer applies and most of these units are practically useless now after spending a ton of money slowly over time. I now have two networked media players , and a HD HomeRun Prime that has 3 cable card tuners so I'm basically doing a HTPC at this point and now that I have the bugs worked out I'm loving it but like said for the non technical user like my mom they'd never figure it out. I enjoy the versatility and being able to do what I used to do without a box, but now in HD with all the goodies, and not having to burn disks all the time to watch my captures.
I was hoping the prime was completely stand alone but networked but it requires a PC on the network tied to it to tell it what to do.
I also would prefer a standalone box that I could just program and edit like my old recorders but this will do for now and except for buying it the only other cost is renting the cable card, which depending on your setup is free to 9 bucks a month extra.
I think as these types of things become more common the price will come down and more features will be added and I bet soon enough somebody will make a completely stand alone version that would make many users happy.
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post #37 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 05:06 AM
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I haven't moved over to the PC/capture technologies, not because I'm a technology curmudgeon, but the volume of archiving/recording I do makes it time prohibitive. The convenience of a DVD set top box (or 2) for quick editing and automatic titling and authoring is paramount. Plus once the discs are finalized then I can take them with me to work for cataloging/backing up to EHD for HTPC/streaming access. Can't do all that quickly/easily with a PC or Tivo. It's a hobby, not a full-time job.
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post #38 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doswonk1 View Post

Wow.....that's some feature set. I paid $650 for my first DVDR with its 120 gig HDD. About the only thing the TiVO doesn't have is the ability to burn a DVD directly. I've never paid that much attention to TiVO because disc burning is a big deal for me, but if you're mostly into time-shifting, want to enjoy your time-shifted content in full HD, and don't mind bringing the PC into the equation to burn the occasional archive disc, that really is a pretty good deal.

If HDD/DVD recorders had continued to be a viable product or if HDD/DVD/BD recorders had made it to the US, they would have served the needs of the SD & HD disk burners and we would not have to invoke not-in-kind solutions. But that is not the case, the DVDR run is over. There are still people who want to burn disks -- they want to continue burning SD/2.0 to DVD and more and more are wanting to burn HD/5.1 to DVD & BD. So what are the choices available in the market today for people to do this. Basically there are 2. Buy or build a HTPC to do it all -- scheduling, recording, playback, editing and burning. Or, buy a TiVo to do scheduling, recording, playback and transfer the content to a PC where you only have to deal with a single application (VideoRedo TV Suite) to edit and burn. I don't think either solution is ideally suited to people who are high-volume disk burners/collectors. No question that issues of complexity and cost will close the door to a number of folks. Just have to pick your poison and adapt.

edit: TiVo is not a brick without its guide, its just not as useful. After the summer hurricane I lost phone and Internet for 3.5 weeks due to the Verizon strike. After 2 weeks there was no information in my TiVo guide, just a grid telling me there was no information. I still had full DVR functionality for watching live TV and could set a manual timer for a channel. Just no way to label the recording.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #39 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 06:31 AM
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Also, I'm not married to the idea of burning disks as my archive choice, but at the moment it's still the ultimate choice for me for convenience, portability, longevity and compatability.
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post #40 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

I probably would have eventually sprung for a Tivo with lifetime if the new crop of PC tuner and networked cable card devices hadn't come out recently . . . . I now have two networked media players , and a HD HomeRun Prime that has 3 cable card tuners so I'm basically doing a HTPC at this point and now that I have the bugs worked out I'm loving it but like said for the non technical user like my mom they'd never figure it out.

I've seen several posts of yours on this. Even though I have a TiVo the urge to build a new media-PC has been pulling at me for months. The new tuner cards look really good and even though I'm OTA, between my wife and daughter the need to record more than 2 channels at a time comes up a lot and requires compromise. I have an old PC I've set up on my network to be a DLNA server and a TiVo server. It has worked out really well with virtually no maintenance and made me want to expand the capabilities, but it's just too old and limited to add a dual-tuner for recording. So I'm just biding my time until HDD prices come back to normal before I buy a NewEgg i5 kit. Like you, I have media players spread around and NAS units for content storage and streaming.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #41 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

edit: TiVo is not a brick without its guide, its just not as useful. After the summer hurricane I lost phone and Internet for 3.5 weeks due to the Verizon strike. After 2 weeks there was no information in my TiVo guide, just a grid telling me there was no information. I still had full DVR functionality for watching live TV and could set a manual timer for a channel. Just no way to label the recording.

So, could I buy a Tivo, not enable the monthly or lifetime subscription, and still use it to record line inputs from my VCR (transfer my VHS collection) or Roku on-demand streaming device? Do any Tivo versions have component inputs?
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post #42 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

So, could I buy a Tivo, not enable the monthly or lifetime subscription, and still use it to record line inputs from my VCR (transfer my VHS collection) or Roku on-demand streaming device? Do any Tivo versions have component inputs?

No. You need to pay the full price for the TiVo if you want it to work in a useful manner. TiVo has no inputs other than a pair of Rf inputs for OTA antenna and cable coax and a cable-card slot.

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post #43 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 07:15 AM
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Well, then Tivo with or without the subscription is a no go for me, without line inputs. That plus the end of the DVDR market limits my choices down to 1...PC capture/tedious editing/encoding/authoring...
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post #44 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 07:21 AM
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The demise of the Magnavox 515 means that for the first time in almost 40 years, U.S. consumers will not have access to a newly manufactured video recorder sold through a retail store. From the expensive VCRs in the 1970s using either Beta or VHS technology to brief window from 2006-2006 when there was an array of HDD DVD recorders on sale here to the last three years, when Magnavox was the only game in town, a consumer could buy an electronic device that recorded on tape or HDD a video signal from a broadcast or other source. That soon will be no longer the case. What good is the Sony Betamax decision if consumers no longer have fairly easy access to recorders that can make a permanent copy of a recording?

If HDD DVD recorder buyers are a niche market, guys who use computers and software to record video are a super small niche group. The acronym KISS applies here, Keep It Simple, Stupid. There is a learning curve with the Magnavoxs but you don't need capture cards or software to record a TV show. The Magnavox comes with a built-in ATSC tuner, unlike international Panasonic HDD DVD recorders. If you want to record line 21 closed captions, there is no other game in town other than the Magnavox.

During the recent dust-up over SOPA and the Obama administration's plan to follow the Red China program in monitoring the Internet, one thing became clear to many Americans. The government, from top down, whether Democrats or Republicans, is made up of bought off lying politicians and kowtowing regulators who could not care less if they jam Americans who like to surf the Internet. "Show me the money!' is the operative phrase.

So, Apple makes record profits from its use of slave labor in China (through its Foxcomm subcontractor), with Apple only telling Foxcomm to install safety nets around its factory buildings, to catch suicidal 15 year old factory workers jumping off their workplace building. A workplace where 12 hour workdays 7 days a week are the norm when there is a new product launch, where the workday can restart at midnight since the workers sleep on cots in communal bedrooms on premises. And everyone in the media says, wow, what a great guy Steve Jobs was. So it is no surprise to me that there has been no news coverage of the demise of HDD DVD recorders in the USA. Nor has been there any press reports on why Funai just halted production of Magnavoxes for the USA market.

If not for a site like AVSForums, information on what is going on with HDD DVD recorders would be hard to come by. Had SOPA passed, I am sure someone in the government would have found a way to issue a take down notice for this site. Just on general principles. Besides, for some at the top, there is a lot to be made helping out your business "friends." Former President Clinton has made over $75 million from paid speaking engagements over the past 10 years. How many of those groups who hired Clinton to give one of his hoarse speeches are hiring him to return a favor, a sort of deferred kickback to the President who signed into law the DMCA and the 1999 law repealing the Glass-Steagall Act of 1934?

Who can say.
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post #45 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Well, then Tivo with or without the subscription is a no go for me, without line inputs. That plus the end of the DVDR market limits my choices down to 1...PC capture/tedious editing/encoding/authoring...

Yeah, sorry. TiVo was built to be a DVR not a DVDR.

For VHS transfers there are some high-quality PC devices with on-board H.264 encoders that do all the heavy lifting while the capture is occurring. As far as editing is concerned I always found PC editing to be fast, efficient and feature laden vs. editing on the DVDR. Even back in my Panasonic E85 days, despite the superior editing capabilities of the Panasonic, I would dump the recordings off to RAM and edit on my PC rather than use the E85's editing features. Programs like Video ReDo TV Suite have automatic commercial detection and marking and localized re-encoding for frame accurate cuts. My current PC is a new i7 model with dual SATA-I burners and SATA-III HDD's -- using ImgBurn I can easily burn 2 8X DVD-R simultaneously. But I guess if you are a high-volume disk burner the extra step of transferring it to a PC would add up -- I never was a volume burner. If I were still using SD DVD recorders I would still just transfer the keepers to PC for editing, but now they would be stored on the NAS for whole-house streaming instead of burning.

Recordable DVD-R is not dead. Not by a long shot. What is dead are MPEG-2-only DVD-players. BluRay players not only play standard MPEG-2 encoded DVD-Video, they also play H.264 encoded AVCHD formatted DVD-R. H.264 is where it's at. You can store a heck of a lot more on disk with equal quality.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #46 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I never was a volume burner. If I were still using SD DVD recorders I would still just transfer the keepers to PC for editing, but now they would be stored on the NAS for whole-house streaming instead of burning.

I do both, burning and NAS streaming. The fact that the set-top HDD DVD burner is my starting point is only because of the automatic built-in recording/editing/menu structure navigation features of DVD dubbing. (And most of my content is SD to begin with.) Once the DVD is finished then they get ripped to my NAS. The editing features I need are just cutting out clips/commercials, and adding chapter marks for intuitive navigation. I'll take a look at VideoRedo TV to see if it would keep me efficient at creating discs and NAS storage, but I don't need feature-rich software that requires manual tweaking of settings and hands-on authoring. I don't need to drive in finishing nails with a sledgehammer.
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post #47 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gerrytwo View Post

If HDD DVD recorder buyers are a niche market, guys who use computers and software to record video are a super small niche group.

Yes, one would think so: this has puzzled me for years. For every post from satisfied, tech-savvy users who extoll the virtues of PC capture I still see a dozen from people who wish they hadn't bothered. And thats just for TV capture: forget VHS capture, where the horror stories run 20:1 against PC in preference to a standalone. So its a real head-scratcher why these accessory boards and HTPCs thrive while everything else has died off. Even with the latest PC capture solutions, the same cable-tv issues that killed off standalones still apply. Its nice to know CableCard is now making inroads to HTPCs, but you still have to fight tooth and nail with most regional cable companies to get it working right, and even then it isn't a 100% breeze (as many TiVo owners can testify).

I would assume its just a sheer numbers game. Making and selling a raw video board or USB breakout box that can be plugged into hundreds of millions of generic PCs, to an amazingly huge market of receptive gearheads (who would network their toilet given half a chance) must be much easier than pitching a standalone device to the bizarrely disinterested consumer market. Although its probably best not to overthink this: while the HTPC solutions seem to be from a different planet, they rise and fall based on the same issues that drove the standalone market.

Average Joe and Jane timeshifter aren't making permanent recordings of anything anymore, and that trend accelerates the younger you go on the demographic scale. So right off the bat, there goes 70% of your standalone or HTPC market. These casual timeshifters also want full HDTV quality, which can't be achieved at the giveaway price they're willing to pay. The subscription cable/sat PVRs fill that void quite nicely for them, those who want a little more go with TiVo. The remaining "elite" market wants to screw around with media farms, AVCHD-on-DVD or various BD format options: no standalone will ever satisfy them, and they're tech-proficient, so they jump on the PC.

I'm still amazed that 30 million off-air-only consumers can't support something like the Magnavox for at least a few more years. But perhaps the limitation of SD video recording is no longer acceptable in this era of $599 55" flat screens. Even for OTA users, HD is a requirement now. With sales of expensive BD/HDD recorders dead at launch, it appears they aren't too interested in disc burning either. My guess is the OTA crowd will soon be offered the "convenient" BluRay Player + HDD HiDef Recorder single-box combo units now popping up in overseas markets. Not exactly ideal, but if Americans turn their nose up at that option, they can kiss non-subscription recorders goodbye forever. Mfrs have had just about enough of our capriciousness.

Quote:


why Funai just halted production of Magnavoxes for the USA market.

In keeping with the initial point of this thread, try to put this event in context with the larger global recorder market. While this is a "crisis" we're taking very personally, give credit where its due: Funai actually continued making DVD/HDD for America two years after dropping them everywhere else except for Japan (and even Japan was limited to the much more expensive BD/HDD versions, which were themselves discontinued more than a year ago). If anything, Funai bent over backwards to try and accommodate the ever-shrinking pool of buyers here.

Quote:
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Recordable DVD-R is not dead. Not by a long shot. What is dead are MPEG-2-only DVD-players. BluRay players not only play standard MPEG-2 encoded DVD-Video, they also play H.264 encoded AVCHD formatted DVD-R. H.264 is where it's at. You can store a heck of a lot more on disk with equal quality.

Yes, but thats just further proof that the two extremes of the spectrum have closed in to crush the middle ground. H.264 may be "where its at" and 10 hours of high-quality SD squeezed onto a BluRay data-format for archiving is an astounding achievement. But neither these nor the many other geek options are widely compatible: they just fracture the market further into techies vs "brain-dead don't ask me to think" Best Buy customers. Average consumer gave up on discs, isn't interested in using any software on a PC, yet feels entitled to full idiot-proof HDTV-quality cable timeshifting for just pennies a day: once they tasted the subscription PVR, there was no turning back. Meanwhile, they hypocritically become Einsteins when it suits them: if they want to snag a movie or TV show or porn out of the "cloud," suddenly they're capable working a suite of half-dozen conversion tools. We in the middle who don't mind putting in a bit of effort, and do want the occasional disc copy without having to tie up our PC, are forced to geek out or give up and join the PVR herd. Neither is ideal.

And some "progress" results in retrograde steps to some degree: affordable BluRay players may have finally buried DVD players, but most BD players make lousy DVD players. This renders millions of otherwise perfectly-good near-HD-quality DVDs people have in their libraries more obsolete than they need to be. Plus BD players are much harder to region-hack for playback of rare or OOP discs. DVD still had a lot of utility left, but is being hustled out the door prematurely. Considering BD doesn't have a prayer of a chance of an ice cube in hell to amass the accumulated quantity of existing DVDs still in use, you would think electronics mfrs would offer some optimizations for DVD playback in their BD players (at least in more-expensive models). But no.
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post #48 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

I'll take a look at VideoRedo TV to see if it would keep me efficient at creating discs and NAS storage, but I don't need feature-rich software that requires manual tweaking of settings and hands-on authoring. I don't need to drive in finishing nails with a sledgehammer.

When it comes down to it, just stick with what you know and what works for you. It's not like you are late to the party. Your content is mostly SD, you have a system that works for you and still have DVD recorder(s) that are functional. Run them into the ground. When the last one is near death, that's the time to step up to a new paradigm.

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post #49 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

. . . an amazingly huge market of receptive gearheads (who would network their toilet given half a chance) . . .

Only if there's an iPhone app to flush it when they're done.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #50 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

Yes, I've been aware of those for awhile (and ChurchAVGuy still hasn't forgiven me for mentioning them to him). Really nice feature set, they'll probably go down as the high water mark of the disc/hdd concept. Unfortunately didn't sell all that well compared to the various Sony Europe models they were meant to replace. The DVD versions are slowly fading from availability, the BluRay versions are still being promoted but it seems only a matter of time before they are gone as well.
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.
.

I cry FOUL here! It isn't YOU I have an issue with, it's Panasonic. Saying I haven't forgive YOU is just inaccurate. I'm glad you brought this unit to my attention. Really! It's just that *IT* is highlighting the mental issue I am having with international products. If Panasonic can make an item for Australia, then they should be able to make it for the USA. It's already being made. Why does Australia, UK, the Middle East, etc get these great machines, multi-tuner recorders with Bluray capability, but in the US even owning one (it seems) is all but illegal? Why do others get the "good stuff" but not us?

Grumble....

Thanks CitiBear--really!

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #51 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

When it comes down to it, just stick with what you know and what works for you. It's not like you are late to the party. Your content is mostly SD, you have a system that works for you and still have DVD recorder(s) that are functional. Run them into the ground. When the last one is near death, that's the time to step up to a new paradigm.

Still, I'd like to keep abreast of a backup (no pun intended) plan in case the death comes prematurely, or the technologies change favorably for me, or I just run out of SD content. Most of my archiving is for old TV shows that are not available on DVD, and probably won't ever be, usually due to music licensing issues or corporate copyright wrangling (I just got done with Wonder Years and am currently working on Cold Case, while my daughter wants all of the Pokemon episodes being shown on Boomerang...etc.)
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post #52 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I cry FOUL here! It isn't YOU I have an issue with, it's Panasonic. Saying I haven't forgive YOU is just inaccurate. I'm glad you brought this unit to my attention. Really! It's just that *IT* is highlighting the mental issue I am having with international products. If Panasonic can make an item for Australia, then they should be able to make it for the USA. It's already being made. Why does Australia, UK, the Middle East, etc get these great machines, multi-tuner recorders with Bluray capability, but in the US even owning one (it seems) is all but illegal? Why do others get the "good stuff" but not us?

I wonder if one could import one of the Australian Panasonic HDD BD recorders if they would work here? I mean they couldn't record HD(since the only way to record HD would be through the tuner which does no good here) but I wonder if one could put 10's of hours of SD(recorded from the line input) on a blank BD? It sounds like the Australian Pannys have a NTSC option but I'm not sure if they would work like the international Panasonics we are familiar with. I noticed in the link to one of the Panny BD recorders that it mentioned only 220v/50hz for the power supply but lots of times they are universal and just don't advertise it. Who's going to be the first one to try It would sure be nice if a company like B&H, JR or even WI were to import such a recorder.
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post #53 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 04:00 PM
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Most of my archiving is for old TV shows that are not available on DVD, and probably won't ever be, usually due to music licensing issues or corporate copyright wrangling

+1 That's the other reason why I don't need a TiVo.

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I wonder if one could import one of the Australian Panasonic HDD BD recorders if they would work here?

I prefer a device like the MTV-7000D: it's multi-voltage, you can attach the Magnavox like a tuner for Analog/DTV, connect your HD cable/sat box to its component/HDMI inputs (GT*O HCDP), save your old VHS/Beta tapes via YWR, then edit the records, or export them to your PC via USB/Wi-Fi. And of course it's portable, very useful when you have to move.

In the bad note, it doesn't have DVD or BR burner, but I'm only interested on get a digital copy of my records, so the USB/Wi-Fi will work.

Anyway I'd like to get a tablet with some nice HTPC features.
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post #54 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I wonder if one could import one of the Australian Panasonic HDD BD recorders if they would work here? I mean they couldn't record HD(since the only way to record HD would be through the tuner which does no good here) but I wonder if one could put 10's of hours of SD(recorded from the line input) on a blank BD? It sounds like the Australian Pannys have a NTSC option but I'm not sure if they would work like the international Panasonics we are familiar with. I noticed in the link to one of the Panny BD recorders that it mentioned only 220v/50hz for the power supply but lots of times they are universal and just don't advertise it. Who's going to be the first one to try It would sure be nice if a company like B&H, JR or even WI were to import such a recorder.

*IF* they would work here in the manner you describe, and *IF* someone would figure out a way to sell them here, I'm sure I'd buy one. You could get a whole season of a show on two disks instead of seven or eight. That's a great incentive.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #55 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I cry FOUL here! It isn't YOU I have an issue with, it's Panasonic. Saying I haven't forgive YOU is just inaccurate.

Aw, you know I was just ribbing you! I meant to put in a smiley face so you'd know I was kidding, but forgot, so here it is now:. No one knows how you feel more than me: when Pioneer went belly up a few years ago I wore black armbands for a month. As a Panasonic fan, at least you're dealing with a viable company that might eventually return to the USA with a product you want. Pioneer, unfortunately, is gone forever- and they took Sony down with them (I really think Sony had planned to use Pioneer BD/HDD designs, just as they had for their immensely successful DVD/HDD series, but when Pioneer died Sony just gave up and told Panasonic to run with the ball alone).

After doing a little more research into Panasonics's current Euro/Aus/NZ lineup, you might discover they're not quite as nice as they initially appear. Several of the "amazing" models we discussed a few months ago are discontinued. Just like in North America, where the EZ series was but a pale derivative of the EH models, the current "foreign" Panasonics fall short of previous offerings. The shift to greater HDTV penetration in the global broadcast markets coupled with the endlessly stalled economy seems to have thrown Panasonic a curveball. Corners have been cut, with features and functionality dropped to meet certain mfr cost requirements or retail price points.

The most frequent complaints on European AV forums involve formerly-common features being scrapped or cut back in such a way that Panasonic can waffle about them in ads or shelf cards, leading you to think they're still included, until you get the recorder home and try to use it. You then discover the instruction books this year are 10x more inscrutable than last years models, with more asterisks and vague fine print disclaimers than you've ever seen in your life. Simple things you took for granted like HS dubbing a DVD (or even a BD) aren't even possible except within very narrow parameters no normal use would fit. From what I gather, just trying to use the dual tuner feature can induce alcoholism.

So don't be too envious of other countries' Panasonics: believe it or not, our generic "grey market import" EH59 and EH-69 are probably more usable and practical day-to-day. We should only hope Panasonic doesn't try to "upgrade" them (or worse, drop them). The mass mfr exodus from DVD/HDD (or BD/HDD) recorders that began in North America back in 2007 has finally spread everywhere else: Panasonic is about the only brand left still bothering. Not sure how much longer they will continue: Europe/Australia/NZ are turning rapidly toward HDD-only recorders, mostly made by brands we've never heard of here. Much as I hate it that Kelson is right, he IS right: discs are dead, outside of PC authoring.
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post #56 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 06:48 PM
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I've been paying attention to this thread since CitiBear first posted it and he only had one reply from Luke - I knew that this would turn into one of the most interesting discussions in a long time. Aside from getting tips and tricks this is the type of discussion I keep coming back for. Too bad the news couldn't be better.

Here is my dilemma:
How can I keep archiving if my cable co switches off the analog outputs of my PVR?
No cablecard support here and if the USA forces the shut offs of analog outputs then Canada will most likely follow like a monkey see - monkey do syndrome.

Background:

Most of you folks living in the US are luckier and have more options then me. OTA is not an option for me as the channels I would receive are very few. Tivo is also out of the question for me, as my cable co will not support cablecard and encrypts all none basic tiers of QAM. Basic cable (about 35 channels) will remain duplicated in SD analog for the foreseeable future. On Jan 02 my cable co notified me and said that all non-basic cable tiers will disappear from analog shortly. The good news is that they offered me a brand new duel tuner 500GB Motorola DCX3400 for $97. My cable package that I now had for a long time contains basic + 4 tiers of cable and includes 4-outlets. The 4-outlets included means that I can purchase up to 4 set-top-boxes/PVRS without paying any extra fees. Of course the gotchas are 1) at anytime the cable co can change its policy and start charging a service fee for any PVR I have hooked up to cable -even though I outright own the PVR. 2) I am limited to buying a PVR that only works with my cable co. But for now this suites my needs - timeshift on my PVR and archive from PVR to my RDRHX-780 DVD/HDD recorder. I don't archive a ton of stuff so its pretty simple and quick to offload stuff from my PVR to my HDD/DVDr.

I truly believe that in North America the cable giants and their lack of supporting third party QAM- decryption devises are largely responsible for the demise of third party timeshifting/archiving recorders.

So again here is my dilemma:
How can I keep archiving if my cable co switches off the anaolog outputs of my PVR?
No cablecard support here and if the USA forces the shut offs of analog outputs then Canada will most likely follow like a monkey see - monkey do syndrome. Also, I'd like to eventually move on to HD archiving but without cablecard support and component outs shut off - this will be impossible for me unless using only OTA.
Kelson, anyone, any ideas?
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post #57 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 07:52 PM
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You would need a advice like the HD fury to convert HDMI to component and then a component to S-video converter to convert the component to S-video.
This could be done in one device(I purchased one from Lenkeng) for ~$50 but the quality isn't the best. The other route is more ~$400 but would provide much better picture quality. I kept my Lenkeng only because it was so cheap and it did what it did, I don't think I would be satisfied if this was my only option.
Oh if your device only had 1 HDMI output(as most devices do) you'd probably need to add a HDMI distribution amp(1 in 2 or more out) which can be had for <$50. I'm sure this sounds like a hodgepodge of equipment but then again content providers don't want to make it easy
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post #58 of 289 Old 01-25-2012, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Here is my dilemma:
How can I keep archiving if my cable co switches off the analog outputs of my PVR?
No cablecard support here and if the USA forces the shut offs of analog outputs then Canada will most likely follow like a monkey see – monkey do syndrome.

If you're worried about the "analog sunset" infecting Canadian monkeys , here's some info that might make you feel better... from a help file in the Mag HDD DVDR thread:

The "Analog Sunset"
Here's a good explanation of the "analog sunset" as mentioned here. It's a licensing agreement between content owners and CE mfgrs that applies to a narrow equipment category (BD) and NOT other equipment. As stated on pg 2 of the pdf doc:

"... analog sunset is also a narrowly defined, regulatory term whereby the performance and behavior of specific types of A/V equipment, namely Blu-ray Disc players and recorders, are restricted in a legally binding manner, and this term is not applicable to other equipment.

On pg 5, it states that cable/sat STBs, are not included:

"The analog outputs of cable or satellite TV set-top boxes, including receivers or DVRs, are sometimes improperly associated with the analog sunset. In the United States, the FCC has a regulation, 47 CFR 76.1903, that explicitly prohibits the disabling of analog outputs on cable and satellite set-top boxes...."
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post #59 of 289 Old 01-26-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

So again here is my dilemma:
How can I keep archiving if my cable co switches off the anaolog outputs of my PVR?

I would be surprised if Canadian providers didn't continue to provide analog outputs on their boxes for the foreseeable future in order to accommodate all the TV sets out there without digital inputs. There are a lot of them out there and not just CRT's. A lot of TV's were sold during that "in-between" time where big-screen projection TV and flat panels were starting to emerge and "HD-Ready" 720p displays were the norm. Almost none had HDMI, some had DVI but all had component and composite-video inputs. S-Video is pretty much dead. Component output may or may not start to fade, but there will always be composite-video outputs. You may run into the aspect ratio problem that plagues the analog output of most cable boxes (box assumes any composite-video output is going to a legacy 4:3 display and letterboxes the output). And you may run into the problem where they shut off analog outputs if a digital connection is being made. The situation of analog recording from a provider box (be it cable, satellite or FIOS) will never be ideal.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #60 of 289 Old 01-26-2012, 04:22 PM
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Thanks Wajo!!!
That's the clearest explanation of the analog sunset I've ever seen. In fact I downloaded the PDF file for further reference. I do feel better and since that's the route the USA is heading I'm sure the Canadian monkeys will also leave our PVR component outputs alone.

Kelson, you're right there are tons of TVs with analog only inputs. It would be insane for the Hollywood types to try and convince our G-man to cut those people off. The cable cos themselves would fight against it.
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