Recorder Market Is Unsettled Everywhere, Not Just USA/Canada Anymore - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 07:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

I decided to recode one of my MPEG-2 HD .wtv recordings to H.264 .wtv with VideoReDo. I just wanted to compare the size of each type of file. I can't believe how much processor power it's taking. If I do the typical commercial cutting and trimming at the beginning and end of shows and keep them as MPEG-2 .wtv the processor barely notices VideoReDo running. During this H.264 recode VideoReDo is taking 85% of the processor resources and the total CPU usage is up to about 90%.

As I noted above, I'm not really a fan of transcoding MPEG-2 into H.264. It takes way too much time. I would rather leave it like it is and burn to BluRay. On top of that, I leave the bitrate high. At the most I'll set the H.24 bit rate to be 70% of the MPEG-2 bitrate -- I don't want any loss in PQ. So that does not result in a huge savings of disk space. Not enough to justify the time.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 08:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ken.F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West Rockhill, PA
Posts: 1,934
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

As I noted above, I'm not really a fan of transcoding MPEG-2 into H.264. It takes way too much time.

I'll find out tomorrow what the file size difference is. If it's a considerable difference I might queue up a few shows at a time and let it run over night. I'm running out of disc space while waiting for HDD prices to come down again.
Ken.F is offline  
post #123 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 08:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

I'll find out tomorrow what the file size difference is. If it's a considerable difference I might queue up a few shows at a time and let it run over night. I'm running out of disc space while waiting for HDD prices to come down again.

Make sure you play the encode and see what you think of the PQ for the bitrate you used. I tend to stay around 70% of the original MPEG-2 bitrate. For an SP recording on a DVDR that would be around 3000Kbps.

Overnight may not be enough time. My old PC I use as a media-PC has a 2.4GHz P-4 and 1 GB ram. I set up multiAVCHD to H.264/AVC encode 4 episodes of a TV series from the commercial disk to AVCHD. The bitrate was ~3200Kbps and was enough for the 4 episodes to fit on a DVD-R. It took 30 hr to run.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #124 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

I've downloaded the manuals for the Hauppauge and AverMedia offerings I've found and am compiling a feature list...stay tuned.

Feel free to suggest any other products to add to this chart, or other features. I picked the features that were important to me.

Hauppauge Hauppauge AverMedia AverMedia AverMedia
Colossus 1212 PVR Game Capture C281 DarkCrystal HD C874 HD Capture Card C027
Type PCIe Ext USB Standalone Ext USB PCIe
HDMI input yes no no no yes
Component Input shared* yes yes yes yes
Component Passthru yes yes yes yes no
Composite/SVideo Input shared* / no yes / yes no yes / yes yes /yes
Optical audio input/passthru yes yes no no no
Bitrates 1Mb - 20Mb 1Mb - 13.5Mb 3Mb - 15Mb (3 settings) 6Mb - 10Mb ? Adjustable
Resolutions 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i
HD Encoding Formats H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 / MPEG2
SD Encoding Formats H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 / MPEG2
File Container Formats avchd/.ts m2ts avi avchd/ts m2ts avi avi avchd/.ts .ts avi wmv mpg
Audio Encoding Format ac3 2.0 5.1 ac3 2.0 5.1 mp3 2.0 ? ?
Hardware/Software Encoding hardware hardware hardware hardware software
Storage / Burning PC / AVCHD DVD PC / AVCHD DVD INT/EXT HDD PC / AVCHD DVD PC / MPEG DVD
IR blaster yes yes no yes no
Remote yes yes yes no no

*shared means that in order to connect composite video cable, you must use the blue component input
dare2be is offline  
post #125 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 09:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ClearToLand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Central NJ, USA
Posts: 1,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Feel free to suggest any other products to add to this chart, or other features...

Very nice table! Thanks for the work.

Please consider adding (BOLD Blue) Manufacturer Product LINKs to Line #2, as in my example below:

Hauppauge Hauppauge AverMedia AverMedia AverMedia
Colossus 1212 PVR Game Capture C281 DarkCrystal HD C874 HD Capture Card C027
Type PCIe Ext USB Standalone Ext USB PCIe

Thanks!

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
NOTE: One heck of a PITA dealing with those 'invisible' TABS using the vBulletin editor!

Low Post Count <> Low Knowledge ergo High Post Count <> High Knowledge

ClearToLand's Picks For Best Answers to Common ReplayTV Questions

Remember, it's only TV...
ClearToLand is offline  
post #126 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 09:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Here is the Hauppauge chart I referred to previously. For more detail on a particular board, go to the Hauppauge website.
There are just so many options and it's all modular. I'm sure it can get really confusing. You just have to sit down and define what you want to do. Then you can go searching for a device that does it. Decide to add more capability later and just pop in another device.


- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #127 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 10:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
NOTE: One heck of a PITA dealing with those 'invisible' TABS using the vBulletin editor!

I had no problems whatsoever...everything was done in Excel first, and I just copied and pasted the cells directly into the table tags.
dare2be is offline  
post #128 of 289 Old 02-01-2012, 10:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ClearToLand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Central NJ, USA
Posts: 1,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

There's no need to apologize for anything ClearToLand. There is no way any of us remember everything other posters post.

I forgot what you said in Post #56 and felt the need to apologize for my confusion, especially considering the length of your reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...I'm still thinking about the internal PCI-E Hauppauge Colossus that dare2be linked...

Is it going to be convenient having a desktop PC next to the Motorola DCX3400 STB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...I think that going hardware based may work better for my needs...

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...I don't have much opinion because I lack any real world experience with media players and media streaming. I can say that I've been exploring media streaming options as well. Kelson gave me some great info in the past. If I did that it would free me up from needing MPEG-2 DVD-Video encoding to stay compatible with old DVD players. On the other hand even if I pass on a media player/server for now and just get the Hauppauge 1212 or Hauppauge Colossus and encode SD stuff in H.264, I could trancode the SD stuff to MPEG-2 and make DVD-Videos using my Nero software...

I started out with a Lifetime ($300) Philips 14 hour TiVo Series 1 ($125) back in the late 90s. I did SO MUCH research before I bought it that I imaged the 20GB HDD and replaced it with 2 80GB HDDs (200 hours! *AND* ~$400 IIRC) before I ever turned it on and let it connect to the Mother Ship. Then in ~2005, RadioShack was clearing out Lifetime ($300) ReplayTV 5040s (?$?) for $150. I bought one for me and one for my Dad. But, dear old Dad never saw it. Once I learned that they could network with one another *AND* a PC with multiple HDDs running the DVArchive app, I was in heaven.

Like Kelson and his ripped DVDs and BRs stored on PC HDDs and playable anywhere there's an Ethernet connection and TV, I was the same with regular TV shows. DVArchive has a Task Scheduler that can automatically d/l shows after a certain number of days. So, if I have a show set to keep 2 episodes, just before the 3rd airs, DVArchive will d/l the 1st (if I haven't already watched and deleted it). Until I needed ATSC/QAM tuners, I never would have seriously looked at DVDRs. I bought my Panasonic DMR-EZ-17 'Open Box' at Target for ~$100 just to 'Experiment'.

[Disclaimer: I *DID* buy a RadioShack Presidian DVD Recorder (no HDD) with NTSC-tuner on sale for ~$30 to transfer ~300-400 VHS tapes to DVD. Only did 2 so far. It must be a Funai product because the screens are the same as the 2160A! The 2160As with their HDDs are going to be much better suited to the task.]

A side note is recently my EZ-17 is getting a LOT of use using FR to put two 90 minute PBS episodes (Downton Abbey and Sherlock) onto one DVD while retaining full screen resolution (thanks to jjeff for that knowledge). One 'sad point' is that off-loading SD from the FiOS PVR has bars on the sides, so I recently got the 'Bright Idea' to record PBS @ HQ directly to the 2160A instead and then, after editing out the commercials, transfer that to the EZ-17 @ FR. Fantastic improvement!

Honestly, without a built-in program guide, I can't see how so many of you began AND continue to manually schedule shows by channel and time, like the old VCR days. I'm currently working on building a custom IR Blaster file for the ReplayTV 5XXX to allow it to change channels on my 2160A. The S-Video OUT from the 2160A records as FULL screen 16x9 Anamorphic on the 5XXXs and upping my recording speed from BASIC to MED keeps the SD quality.

Plus, the FAT+ and PBO can playback the MPG files from the DVArchive Server (they can't see the ReplayTV HDDs) - although they don't automatically 'Skip Commercials' like the 5XXXs.

Yep, Kelson does all the 'Legwork / Research' and then I buy the products when they go on sale.

'Clotting-Edge Technology' - LOW $$$ (vs 'Bleeding-Edge' - HIGH $$$) is a term I coined for how I approach it.

BTW, regarding this 'Nero Re-Encoding', have you done it yet? See Ken.F's current 'Experiment' and Kelson's post stating 30 hours on a P4 2.4GHz.

Low Post Count <> Low Knowledge ergo High Post Count <> High Knowledge

ClearToLand's Picks For Best Answers to Common ReplayTV Questions

Remember, it's only TV...
ClearToLand is offline  
post #129 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 03:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ken.F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West Rockhill, PA
Posts: 1,934
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Make sure you play the encode and see what you think of the PQ for the bitrate you used. I tend to stay around 70% of the original MPEG-2 bitrate. For an SP recording on a DVDR that would be around 3000Kbps.

Overnight may not be enough time. My old PC I use as a media-PC has a 2.4GHz P-4 and 1 GB ram. I set up multiAVCHD to H.264/AVC encode 4 episodes of a TV series from the commercial disk to AVCHD. The bitrate was ~3200Kbps and was enough for the 4 episodes to fit on a DVD-R. It took 30 hr to run.

It was a 4 hour program and took 6 hours to complete. It ended up being 3:03 after the commercials were cut. I used the default settings in VideoReDo so I'm not sure what the bitrate was. I was still half asleep when I closed the stat screen first thing this morning. I should have written it all down before closing it. The video looks very good in Media Player. I'll see how it looks on my TV with Media Center tonight.

The MPEG-2 file is 19.8 GB and the H.264 file is 13.5 GB. Both files are the same length and have the commercials removed.
Ken.F is offline  
post #130 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 07:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

It was a 4 hour program and took 6 hours to complete. It ended up being 3:03 after the commercials were cut. I used the default settings in VideoReDo so I'm not sure what the bitrate was. I was still half asleep when I closed the stat screen first thing this morning. I should have written it all down before closing it. The video looks very good in Media Player. I'll see how it looks on my TV with Media Center tonight.

The MPEG-2 file is 19.8 GB and the H.264 file is 13.5 GB. Both files are the same length and have the commercials removed.

That's about a 30% size reduction, which I tend towards when I encode H.264. I recode SD MPEG-2 to H.264 for fun and to learn but not for keepers. I keep the compilations small so I can do the recode in a reasonable amount of time and burn the result to DVD-RW to test in players. I use a number of the highly-rated open-source encoders like ffmpeg and handbrake and just play with settings to see the resulting PQ. You can specify bitrate, encoding "speed" and 1-pass or 2-pass. All these effect the PQ. To be honest, I have not been pleased with the PQ of any 1-pass SD encodes so I'm pretty much done with them. When I play them back to back with the original SD MPEG-2 they clearly look inferior and I get a lot of A/V synch problems. I use my old XP machine for this instead of my i7 box because I have the XP box set up as multiple XP partitions for experimenting. I can blow away a partition and reload a fresh OS image any time I clutter it up with installing multiple tools for testing. The downside is that the XP box is much slower at encoding.

I'm about to set up multiAVCHD to do some single title encodes (one 40 min episode) from the commercial DVD where I use the highest-quality, 2-pass mode available (lowest speed) and just vary the bitrate. The bitrate of the original SD MPEG-2 is ~6000Kbps. I'm going to start H.264 encoding at 6000Kbps and work my way down to 4200Kbps (70%) in steps of 600Kbps. I expect these 4 encodes will take the weekend on that XP box.

If I still don't see picture quality that is equal to the original SD MPEG-2 on my 50" plasma, then I'm pretty much done with the notion of recoding SD MPEG-2 to H.264 and I'll just keep doing what I have been doing which is burning the SD MPEG-2 to BD-R and just being happy with ability to put 5xDVD-R on one disk. I absolutely refuse to compromise PQ on any keepers -- if I can notice it, it's unacceptable.

Then the next experiments will be recoding of HD MPEG-2 to H.264. I'll use a TiVo recording for that. Those files are 5GB for a 1 hr show with original bitrates of ~15Mbps. Recoding one of those may take days on my XP box.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #131 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 02:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ken.F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West Rockhill, PA
Posts: 1,934
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

That's about a 30% size reduction, which I tend towards when I encode H.264.

30% makes sense. I just checked the default setting in VideoReDo. It is set at 70% for MPEG-2 > H.264 .wtv so that's what it must have been for this recode.
Quote:


Make sure you play the encode and see what you think of the PQ for the bitrate you used.

The H.264 recording looks just as good as the original MPEG-2 on my 32" Samsung. I don't have a long enough HDMI cable to connect the PC to my 50" plasma.

I'm recoding the same program right now at 70% and keeping it MPEG-2. That might help save some space without taking all night.

Edit: It only took 23 minutes to recode this time but the file size is the same 19.8 GB.
Ken.F is offline  
post #132 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Honestly, without a built-in program guide, I can't see how so many of you began AND continue to manually schedule shows by channel and time, like the old VCR days.

Not so many as you'd think: it can seem like there's a lot of us "luddites" here on AVS when we converge on a specific thread, but the average consumer rejected every recorder after the VCR that didn't include a guide system (and even the over-hyped TVGOS attempt to make DVD/HDD "more like a TiVo" flamed out spectacularly).

The various EPG systems do not appeal to me at all, personally, and I've never understood the "en masse" utter rejection of manual timers on the DVDR and separate timer on the cable box. We did it for twenty years with the VCR, grumbled about it but it worked. I totally get how the mass market (who never keep anything and only timeshift) flipped over the whole integration thing once cable & satellite "borrowed" the TiVO concept: if you don't give a rats ass about archiving, makes sense you really don't want to be bothered fussing with technology. But the collectors? If I'm going to the trouble to archive, dealing with manual timers is the least of my worries: there's other tedium involved that's worse. But then I'm peculiar anyway: I'm the only one on this forum that *hated* TVGOS from the day it appeared until this very moment as it insists on a slow toturous death instead of just giving the hell up already. Automatic EPGs seemed like a good idea until I realized I'd be constantly fighting against them to counter stupid broadcast and cable scheduling errors- I'm much more comfortable with multiple manual timers.

Not everyone has the luxury of a manual timer option on their cable box: I do know many regions recently got hardware or software "upgrades" with no program timers unless you opt for the PVR subscription. If that ever happens in my cable area, I'll be stuck cobbling together some sort of IR dongle mess using a PC, which would no doubt also entail web EPG software and recording directly to the PC. I'm not quite ready for that yet, and hope my Pioneer DVD/HDD units last awhile longer. So far they're averaging 3-4 years durability apiece, and I have two new DVR-460s in reserve (not to mention the apparently-indestructible Magnavoxes). But I have a feeling good-quality blank media optimized for these recorders will disappear before they ever wear out: my spotty experience with TY 8x premium DVD-R these last few months has not been encouraging- at all. I might be joining the HDD-server-farm crowd sooner than I'd expected.
CitiBear is offline  
post #133 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

Not so many as you'd think: it can seem like there's a lot of us "luddites" here on AVS when we converge on a specific thread, but the average consumer rejected every recorder after the VCR that didn't include a guide system (and even the over-hyped TVGOS attempt to make DVD/HDD "more like a TiVo" flamed out spectacularly).

The various EPG systems do not appeal to me at all, personally, and I've never understood the "en masse" utter rejection of manual timers on the DVDR and separate timer on the cable box. We did it for twenty years with the VCR, grumbled about it but it worked. I totally get how the mass market (who never keep anything and only timeshift) flipped over the whole integration thing once cable & satellite "borrowed" the TiVO concept: if you don't give a rats ass about archiving, makes sense you really don't want to be bothered fussing with technology. But the collectors? If I'm going to the trouble to archive, dealing with manual timers is the least of my worries: there's other tedium involved that's worse. But then I'm peculiar anyway: I'm the only one on this forum that *hated* TVGOS from the day it appeared until this very moment as it insists on a slow toturous death instead of just giving the hell up already. Automatic EPGs seemed like a good idea until I realized I'd be constantly fighting against them to counter stupid broadcast and cable scheduling errors- I'm much more comfortable with multiple manual timers.

Not everyone has the luxury of a manual timer option on their cable box: I do know many regions recently got hardware or software "upgrades" with no program timers unless you opt for the PVR subscription. If that ever happens in my cable area, I'll be stuck cobbling together some sort of IR dongle mess using a PC, which would no doubt also entail web EPG software and recording directly to the PC. I'm not quite ready for that yet, and hope my Pioneer DVD/HDD units last awhile longer. So far they're averaging 3-4 years durability apiece, and I have two new DVR-460s in reserve (not to mention the apparently-indestructible Magnavoxes). But I have a feeling good-quality blank media optimized for these recorders will disappear before they ever wear out: my spotty experience with TY 8x premium DVD-R these last few months has not been encouraging- at all. I might be joining the HDD-server-farm crowd sooner than I'd expected.

Did you steal my post? Because those sound like the words directly out of my mouth. +1000

The lack of a useful, clickable, searchable guide system I believe is the main reason that HDD/DVD recorders did not take much of a foothold here in the US. We are a lazy group, and any perceived lack of convenience will be dismissed out of hand.

That said, I am actively keeping up with the technology trends (as evidenced in this thread and the other sticky thread) on the outside chance that I need to switch paradigms in a hurry.
dare2be is offline  
post #134 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 05:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

30% makes sense. I just checked the default setting in VideoReDo. It is set at 70% for MPEG-2 > H.264 .wtv so that's what it must have been for this recode.

The H.264 recording looks just as good as the original MPEG-2 on my 32" Samsung. I don't have a long enough HDMI cable to connect the PC to my 50" plasma.

I just may have to download the trial version of the H.264 version of Video Redo and give it a try if these 2-pass encodes are not satisfying.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #135 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 05:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

The lack of a useful, clickable, searchable guide system I believe is the main reason that HDD/DVD recorders did not take much of a foothold here in the US. We are a lazy group, and any perceived lack of convenience will be dismissed out of hand.

That said, I am actively keeping up with the technology trends (as evidenced in this thread) on the outside chance that I need to switch paradigms in a hurry.

I would not say a lack, but rather manufacturers inability to implement one properly -- other than Panasonic. I gave up my VCR and bought my Panasonic E85 in early 2005 for OTA and loved the TVGOS feature for scheduling. I never set manual timers. It worked like a swiss watch -- the time was never wrong, I always had 7 days and scheduling was a click-n-go breeze. I had some issues with missed recordings after a year, but that was traced to a failing HDD in the E85. After I replaced it the unit ran like a clock until I retired it for a TiVo. From the E85 on, Panasonic HDD recorders all had excellent implementations of TVGOS -- until the music stopped.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #136 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 05:29 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

I might be joining the HDD-server-farm crowd sooner than I'd expected.

Not at least until the second quarter when the supply has re-established and the prices are projected to come back to normal. I have an empty multi-bay enclosure just sitting and waiting for some 2TB drives. They have a ways to go before they get back down to $80.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #137 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 05:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Super Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 956
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

BTW, regarding this 'Nero Re-Encoding', have you done it yet? See Ken.F's current 'Experiment' and Kelson's post stating 30 hours on a P4 2.4GHz. .

I re-coded quite a few. Keepers and time shifters of broadcasts I find on the net.
Two points I need to make very clear.

1) So far I've only been experimenting with SD to SD conversions.

2) I re-code my stuff backwards from the other guys here discussing re-coding. I recode from MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 DVD-Video so my videos stay compatible with any DVD player that does on the fly PAL-NTSC conversions.

I find concerts that were broadcast outside of North America. Someone always records them and uploads them. This is just an extension of archiving broadcasts from my North American TV channels.

I find that the countries that are most likely to air concerts that I like are
1) UK
2) Germany
3) Brazil
4) Japan
5) Netherlands

If they originally aired with reasonable quality, meaning a reasonable broadcast bit-rate and a reasonable source and they get uploaded by some hobbyist in MPEG-4 DivX or MPEG-4 XviD formats at 1.4 gig per hour (2-h concert @ 2.8 gig) I re-code them back to MPEG-2 DVD-Video using a 2-pass VBR using a 4.7 gig DVDr - they look as good as if I recorded the concert from cable using my stand-alone RDR-HX780. More folks overseas tend to upload the concerts using only 700 megs per hour and even those concerts look reasonable but not as good of course.

Oh, the time it takes to recode MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 Standard Def using my dual core AMD 2.7GHZ per core - using 2-pass VBR (the slower better quality) takes about real-time for the recode not including the burn. One-pass VBR takes about half as long as real-time. I thought this was very slow but listening to Kelson recoding HD from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 I see takes a lot longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Is it going to be convenient having a desktop PC next to the Motorola DCX3400 STB?

I don't own a laptop so even if I get the Hauppauge 1212, it will need to be connected to a desktop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

If I'm going to the trouble to archive, dealing with manual timers is the least of my worries:

+1
Super Eye is offline  
post #138 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I would not say a lack, but rather manufacturers inability to implement one properly -- other than Panasonic. I gave up my VCR and bought my Panasonic E85 in early 2005 for OTA and loved the TVGOS feature for scheduling. I never set manual timers. It worked like a swiss watch -- the time was never wrong, I always had 7 days and scheduling was a click-n-go breeze. I had some issues with missed recordings after a year, but that was traced to a failing HDD in the E85. After I replaced it the unit ran like a clock until I retired it for a TiVo. From the E85 on, Panasonic HDD recorders all had excellent implementations of TVGOS -- until the music stopped.

"Lack" works when I also used the "useful" adjective. Lack, as in lacking usefulness (regardless of reason), not lack as in missing.
dare2be is offline  
post #139 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 07:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dartman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I always set my timers manually as nothing I own has a guide at all so never missed it. Even when I was using CWEPG I would just download the schedule about once a week then look over the listing and manually add the ones it picked from my favorites and override the mistakes or ones I hadn't seen yet that were reruns.
Using the MCE interface is pretty nice so I've been letting it do the work and just check that it appears all my season passes and one offs are actually getting scheduled and recorded.
It kinda sounds like the jokes about young people not knowing what to do with a rotary dial phone when they see one
I don't have a problem setting anything manually but if I find a reliable automatic way to do it I'm going to happily use it and save myself some time. The other nice thing is most of the scheduler programs actually pick up on it when they play the lets start early or end late crap so you don't miss part of you favorite show because you set your timer to do weekly without any padding, which many times you can't do with only 1 tuner and back to back shows on different channels.
Dartman is online now  
post #140 of 289 Old 02-02-2012, 09:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
RichardT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Clarkston, Washington (State), Southeast corner
Posts: 923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

I'm the only one on this forum that *hated* TVGOS from the day it appeared until this very moment.

My wife reminds me "Liars don't go to heaven." You are not the only one who hated TVGOS. It got in my way; had to go to extra effort to get rid of it. Maybe I just never learned to use it. Manual entry worked, including PRENAME (Magnavox finally caught on) and REFRESH (E100H). My recording is our own production of the weekly church service plus seasonal specials, OTA Public Television, Sky Angel and now GloryStar satellite. I don't know, maybe these offer TVGOS; I've just never bothered to learn to use it.

I also loved the precision and predictability of DOS. With these new GUI',s I never know when it's going to jump in and "help" me out. I must confess though, Windows has brought uniformity to the user interface. Under DOS, every programmer chose his own.
RichardT is offline  
post #141 of 289 Old 02-03-2012, 07:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Lack, as in lacking usefulness (regardless of reason), not lack as in missing.

Well I certainly don't agree that TVGOS lacked usefulness. I loved it, at the time. It made my DVD recorder so much more useful than the VCRs it replaced and made it an integral part of our TV viewing experience. Don't confuse a bad implementation on certain hardware platforms with a lack of utility of the whole service. Panasonic did it right. Whether other manufacturers did or didn't is irrelevant to the utility of TVGOS. If you owned a Panasonic DVDR you got a well integrated EPG. One button push and the 7-day guide comes up showing me the line-up and what I have scheduled to record. Highlight and click to set a recording; another click to specify frequency; recordings automatically dated and titled -- what's not to like. The disappearance of analog TVGOS from OTA when the DTV switchover was triggered caused me to spend 6 months recording through a CECB and having to schedule all recordings manually and with no automatic titling. After 5 yr of TVGOS EPG scheduling, 6 months of manual was about all I could tolerate and was one of the reasons I put my E85 on the shelf and bought a TiVo instead of a digital-tuner funai without an EPG. Of course, TiVo takes guide scheduling to a whole new level of usefulness. So while people are wondering today what to do when DVD recorders are soon discontinued, I guess I crossed that bridge 3 yr ago with the overnight demise of TVGOS enabled recorders.

Of course for some people this is just one area of change that they resist and just want a box that functions as a digital VCR. For those people the funai recorders are perfect.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #142 of 289 Old 02-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
plplplpl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Well I certainly don't agree that TVGOS lacked usefulness. Panasonic did it right.

Toshiba did it right, too. The TVGOS on my pair of RD-XS35s still works flawlessly to this day, off an analog cable feed (Videotron).

Sadly, I hardly ever watch SD anymore, and now I record through my HTPC's WMC EPG in HD.
plplplpl is offline  
post #143 of 289 Old 02-03-2012, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I would not say a lack, but rather manufacturers inability to implement one properly -- other than Panasonic.

^This.^

My biggest beef with TVGOS was the lousy implementation on the recorders I tried. It was unbelievably bad on the Pioneers, and was the direct cause of them jumping into bed with Sony to co-manufacture subsequent recorders (a scheme which had good and bad results). Things were nearly as bad with the Toshibas, although with them it was more a case of fighting against the "logic" of TVGOS rather than the very existence of TVGOS causing the machine to self destruct in short order (Pioneer). I did not try the few Sonys with TVGOS, they were controversial (too expensive, very divergent opinions on PQ, and apparently totally useless in the absence of a TVGOS pilot signal). The only recorder with TVGOS to get consistently good reports were the Panasonics. I did eventually borrow an EH55 for the hell of it, and agree TVGOS was FAR more intelligently implemented by Panasonic than anyone else. If all mfrs integrated it the way Panasonic did, it might not have left such a sour taste for some of us.

I understand the necessity of an EPG today: at this point, it is actually cheaper for mfrs to include than a manual timer. I was mystified by how few CECBs included any sort of EPG or manual timer, and how those few that did used ridiculously unreliable clocks: it kills their utility as updates for older recorders (I ended up buying my first Magnavox out of sheer desperation for a reliable ATSC tuner that could change its own channels and feed my Pioneers as an external tuner). All cable boxes and satellite boxes now have EPG so its easy enough to add a timer function: the only reason they don't is to force you into a PVR subscription. By all accounts, the European gov't-standardized EPG for brodcast/satellite works very well (and was responsible for keeping DVD/HDD and BD/HDD popular until very recently).

European Guide+ has similar advantages and flaws to TVGOS but is overall better managed: too bad MacroVision (excuse me, "Rovi") couldn't get its act together enough to insist on Panasonic-style implementation across the board, and offer sufficient incentive to broadcasters and cable to provide/standardize/maintain the pilot signal. To some degree I think TVGOS was another casualty of the Fed's botched ATSC migration policies, same as many TV mfrs and recorder brands got slammed. Maintaining both digital and analog tuners and EPG systems for an unspecified number of years seemed an unworkable expense in the early DTV era (compounded by our choice of a totally different DTV system than the rest of the world already had in place: mfrs could not spread the new expense across global volume).
CitiBear is offline  
post #144 of 289 Old 02-03-2012, 02:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Yeah, I would imagine with you being as big a Pioneer fan as you are that those disaster models with TVGOS didn't sit well with you. I remember those days here in AVS-land where just about every other post was from someone with a TVGOS/Pioneer screaming how much it sucked. They kept trying to blame TVGOS for the problems, but then the Panasonic guys would chime in with "it works fine for us, now as it always has". Those were some bad times on the board.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #145 of 289 Old 02-04-2012, 02:09 PM
Newbie
 
TheForce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just ran across this on the Avermedia website, looks interesting:
http://www.avermedia.com/Product/Pro...d=563&device=4

Looks like it was just announced it so am curious when it will be available (or even if it will here in the states) and cost.
TheForce is offline  
post #146 of 289 Old 02-08-2012, 10:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

I hope to try out the free open source MediaPortal at some point . . . unless someone else ends up trying it first...I probably won't get to it for a while. Sounds better than WMC and has specific community support for the Hauppauge units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

If Media Portal supported the HomeRun Prime I think I'd be all over it but sounds like so far it doesn't. I'll have to keep an eye on it and see if anything interesting happens to change that, thanks for the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Yes, it is one of the apps Silicon Dust lists that supports the HD Homerun and runs under Windows:
  • Windows Media Center
  • SnapStream BeyondTV – DVR for Windows
  • SageTV – DVR for Windows/Linux/Mac
  • MediaPortal – DVR for Windows
  • Next-PVR/GB-PVR – DVR for Windows
I'll be looking at all of these with the HD-HR, as long as they run under Win-XP. So sounds like Mediaportal should be the first on the list.

Be careful of what you wish for. Setting up MediaPortal could turn into a career for someone. It is definitely not what I would call an easy option for someone moving from a stand-alone DVDR who expects the same convenience -- even if they are technically astute with software.

The problem with most open-source software is that it is written by geeks, for geeks. Documentation for setup is almost always lacking in basic details because geeks would already know this stuff. This is very problematic because so much open-source software builds upon other OSS tools that have to be installed separately -- but most geeks already have them installed so they take it for granted. Starting from a clean Win-XP SP-3 partition, I spent 4 evenings trying to get MediaPortal to work with the HD Homerun and just flat-out failed. I searched through the wiki and forums after I installed it looking for "what other" pieces I was missing. You never find them all at once, you get them bits at a time -- i.e. most people don't realize Win-XP doesn't have a codec for DD/5.1 because some software they install down the line has one and does the job. When you start with a clean partition you have nothing and have to go looking for what you need -- assuming you know what you need.

That's one of the reasons to buy the DVR software. You are paying someone else to package everything you need into a single install package and it is their business to make it work for you. If SnapStream BeyondTV wasn't $100 I would have jumped on it immediately after flushing the MediaPortal partition. As it was, I gave Next-PVR a shot before going to BeyondTV.

Next-PVR distinguishes itself in that it is simpler than MediaPortal and has a decent wiki for configuration and use -- although it is simple enough that playing with it is more than enough to learn it's use. But of course it doesn't "work" after you install it on a clean partition because you don't have everything else you need -- surprise. Once you search around the forum you find a nice support post with links to fixes that need to be installed and you get a link to a codec pack that someone has put together with all the codecs needed. You also find there is little information on setting it up with the HD Homerun (or any TV card for that matter) but in that small reservoir you discover you need to punch holes in the Windows firewall for certain Next-PVR modules and some non-obvious settings for the HD Homerun configuration app. This one only took me a day and a half to get up and running, but it does work.

The HD Homerun pulls in 37 ATSC channels which is way more than I remember the last time I did a channel scan on a piece of equipment about 2-3 yr ago. Apparently more channels have popped up. Next-PVR uses PSIP for a basic free guide which is not too bad in the Philly area -- I get about 18 hr of info. If you want a better guide you have to pay for it. It has direct support for a Schedules Direct guide for $25/yr; you can also get a 2 month sub for only $6 to try it out. For now I'll stick with PSIP until I know I want to stick with Next-PVR. Scheduling a recording was pretty easy, just the usual point and click in the guide. As far as I can tell, it uses name-based recording, has provision for setting season-pass style recurring recordings, can skip repeats and has a search function. Have not played with all these yet to put it through the paces. Of course it has provision for watching/pausing live TV and recordings DVR style and can be controlled by a standard WMC remote -- but that was never my intended purpose so I won't be playing with any of that.

I scheduled and successfully recorded 5 programs last night from both tuners on the HD Homerun. The recording format is just what I expected -- it spools the DTV .ts transport stream. You can do just about anything with .ts files. For the optical disk-burners you can pull .ts files into multiAVCHD and author/burn them to a BluRay disk or an AVCHD formatted DVD-R/DL. For the networked media people, .ts files are directly playable on most media players including the WD Live players. I downloaded a couple open-source apps to play with that convert .ts to .mpg and clip out commercials if desired. Personally, I want to see if my TiVo will play a .ts file. If not I'll convert to .mpg and see if that works (TiVo plays .mpg made from it's own recordings so I'm hopeful). Last option is just store it on the NAS and use the WD Live for playback. I should mention here that everything is in the original MPEG-2 encoding just as it comes to you OTA -- there is no re-encoding to H.264 involved during recording; I prefer that. And of course, these recording are all HD/5.1.

After I've played with Next-PVR for a bit, I'm going to install Snapstream BeyondTV on a separate clean XP partition and see how they do. Unless something about it knocks my socks off, I probably won't buy it myself since it appears Next-PVR will satisfy my intended need (as an overflow recorder to supplement my TiVo). I'm curious to see how good a job SnapStream does with the install and setup to get the more mainstream user functional. After I get fully comfortable with Next-PVR and have some usage time under my belt, I'll probably start a thread for it here.

Bottom line is setting up a media-PC is not for the faint of heart or those seeking the "plug it in and use it" convenience of a video appliance like a stand-alone DVDR. By the time you add up all the hardware/software costs and the time you'll spend learning about things you shouldn't need to care about, you might be better off just buying a lifetime-TiVo.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #147 of 289 Old 02-08-2012, 01:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dartman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Yep. in my case I already have everything I need to at least now call my box a media PC so I went the route I did. If I had to buy everything from scratch I think I'd be out at least 500 bucks just to build a workable HTPC, then there's the cost of whatever tuner you decide on if you need something special like cable card support.
I'm not sure how portable the files a Tivo makes are but from what I'm hearing it's not as locked down as I thought so the main obstacle is paying for a unit and lifetime sub.
For me the Prime is great as I don't have the money to plunk down on a Tivo and lifetime for now but I did have enough to buy a prime and get a card and get everything setup for my cable and system already in place.
Think about your needs and wants, and the upfront cost, before you jump in or you could be going nuts AND spending a bunch of extra money you hadn't counted on.
Dartman is online now  
post #148 of 289 Old 02-08-2012, 01:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,413
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

Yep. in my case I already have everything I need to at least now call my box a media PC so I went the route I did. If I had to buy everything from scratch I think I'd be out at least 500 bucks just to build a workable HTPC, then there's the cost of whatever tuner you decide on if you need something special like cable card support.
I'm not sure how portable the files a Tivo makes are but from what I'm hearing it's not as locked down as I thought so the main obstacle is paying for a unit and lifetime sub.

Software is often over looked. Good editing/authoring software is not free. I was in a similar boat. I had a spare old PC on hand after I bought a new one so I decided to play at making it a media-PC for just the cost of the HD Homerun (thanks again for making me aware of it). No way would I do this for my primary unit, it is strictly for secondary or overflow recording.

As far as TiVo, anything OTA or not copy-protected by the cable company can be transferred over the network to a PC as a standard HD/5.1 MPEG-2 .mpg file. You can author and burn as you wish.

For others reading this, the reason I went with the HD Homerun and not a Hauppauge TV tuner card is because the location of my media-PC is nowhere near an antenna outlet. The HD Homerun is a really small box that sits out of the way in the back of my equipment rack in the family room. It pulls an antenna tap from the powered splitter that feeds the TV, TiVo and AVR and plugs into the ethernet switch to connect to the house network.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #149 of 289 Old 02-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
plplplpl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Thanks for sharing, Kelson. I agree NextPVR is pretty good (and free). I've got it installed and it's relatively easy to understand.

I also have WinTV v.7, a free program from Hauppauge. I'd say it's a bit better even than NPVR, so you might want to give it a try. I use it with a Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1800 tuner card, so I can't vouch for how it works with non-Hauppauge devices.

In truth, I rarely use either of these programs, since WMC serves me just fine as an HD PVR with EPG.
plplplpl is offline  
post #150 of 289 Old 02-08-2012, 01:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Be careful of what you wish for. Setting up MediaPortal could turn into a career for someone. It is definitely not what I would call an easy option for someone moving from a stand-alone DVDR who expects the same convenience -- even if they are technically astute with software.

...

Starting from a clean Win-XP SP-3 partition, I spent 4 evenings trying to get MediaPortal to work with the HD Homerun and just flat-out failed.

...

As it was, I gave Next-PVR a shot before going to BeyondTV.

...

After I've played with Next-PVR for a bit, I'm going to install Snapstream BeyondTV on a separate clean XP partition and see how they do.

...

Bottom line is setting up a media-PC is not for the faint of heart or those seeking the "plug it in and use it" convenience of a video appliance like a stand-alone DVDR.

Thank you, Kelson, for taking the plunge and reporting back your results!
dare2be is offline  
Reply DVD Recorders (Standard Def)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off