Options for Recording After DVDR's Are Gone - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 156 Old 01-30-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott967 View Post

I have spent about a year following the media streamer forum, looking for an ideal solution but everything requires fiddling, has bugs, or is missing features. Mainly Popcorn Hour, Dune, WD, Boxee Box, etc. For whatever reason, the market hasn't been able to come up with a "box" that handles current capabilities with room for future. Maybe I am expecting too much. Maybe there are too many usage scenarios to try to get into a single device. What are the usage scenarios that are desired for this Funai replacement?

For my part, I only use the DVD burner to get content from my 2160 to my PC. I suppose there is a segment of the market which will archive to DVD only, but should we be restricted to DVD-video format? How many DVD-video only decoders are there going to be in 2 years?

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.

I agree with the assessment on the streaming boxes, there is no one-size-fits-all option.

As far as archival to DVD or BRD or HDD, my initial understanding is that AVCHD is becoming the de-facto standard, offering better H.264 compression for both HD and SD content, which can easily be NAS streamed from a hard disk, or burned as MP4 files to standard DVDs or BluRay discs for playback on modern BluRay players. At least, that is where my initial research is headed.
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post #62 of 156 Old 01-31-2012, 09:58 PM
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[Discussion moved from the "Unsettled DVD Recorder Market" thread]

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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

You bet. Although right now I’m only testing the waters and I won’t bite the bullet unless my RDR-HX780 dies. One thing I wish the Hauppauge would do is give you a choice of SD encoding in H.264/AVC or "MPEG-2 for burning to regular DVD-Video so you could make DVDs compatable with any old DVD player." Also a lot of the features are overkill for my needs but I heard very good things regarding the Hauppauge encoding quality. Do you know of any other capture cards that have HD component inputs?

I found these 2 Avermedia products:

http://www.amazon.com/AVERMEDIA-C281...ref=pd_sim_e_1
Pros: does not require a computer to operate.
Cons: doesn't appear to have composite/s-video inputs, and it appears to only record in avi format

http://www.amazon.com/AVERMEDIA-AVER...sr=1-1-catcorr
This looks to have both component and composite/s-video inputs, but it only appears to encode h.264, not mpeg2.

From what I understand, h.264 compression is superior to mpeg2 in terms of quality and space used, yet it can only be played on modern blu-ray players, whether they be standard DVD discs, or BD-Rs. Still looking for something that encodes mpeg2 natively, without the need for re-encoding/conversion, but I suspect that any device with HD component inputs probably won't.
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post #63 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

I found these 2 Avermedia products:

http://www.amazon.com/AVERMEDIA-C281...ref=pd_sim_e_1
Pros: does not require a computer to operate.
Cons: doesn't appear to have composite/s-video inputs, and it appears to only record in avi format

http://www.amazon.com/AVERMEDIA-AVER...sr=1-1-catcorr
This looks to have both component and composite/s-video inputs, but it only appears to encode h.264, not mpeg2.

Using the avi format isn't really a con. Windows DVD Maker can create dvd's from avi files. I've done this with my Windows 7 machines. It's fairly easy and it works really well.
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post #64 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

Using the avi format isn't really a con. Windows DVD Maker can create dvd's from avi files. I've done this with my Windows 7 machines. It's fairly easy and it works really well.

It may be easy, but any re-encoding will be another lossy step, plus add more processing time and power needed to do the conversion. With a high volume load of captured content, that conversion step would be time prohibitive and likely qualitatively detrimental.
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post #65 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

It may be easy, but any re-encoding will be another lossy step, plus add more processing time and power needed to do the conversion. With a high volume load of captured content, that conversion step would be time prohibitive and likely qualitatively detrimental.

It probably still looks better than what a dvd recorder burns.

Sadly, if you don't want to burn avi or h.264 files to dvd, you don't have many options anymore. You can just do what I do and keep stuff on external hdd's. I've been using WMC to record ota programing and I've been happy with the results. A couple of 2tb external hdd's (one back-up) take up a lot less space than discs do. Nowadays, anybody who is serious about recording tv has either a htpc/WMC extender or Tivo connected to at least one of their sets. That's just the way things are and it's not going to get any better in the future.
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post #66 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 08:34 AM
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There are still plenty of reasons to have other portable media options besides HDD. One of which is long car trips, for our kids to watch their shows on their portable DVD players. That is just one reason and only barely scratches the surface.

I really shouldn't even have mentioned the potential quality losses with re-encoding. The real issue with me is the extra time and effort in doing the conversions when dealing with a high volume of recordings.
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post #67 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

There are still plenty of reasons to have other portable media options besides HDD. One of which is long car trips, for our kids to watch their shows on their portable DVD players. That is just one reason and only barely scratches the surface.

I really shouldn't even have mentioned the potential quality losses with re-encoding. The real issue with me is the extra time and effort in doing the conversions when dealing with a high volume of recordings.

You're at a different point in life than I am. I remember those days of having the kids watch movies while on long drives. Now, they better be looking at the road since they're driving on their own!

As far as time, nothing beats the high speed burning feature of a dvd w/hdd recorder. But by the time I get grandchildren, there won't be many (if any) units like these around. So I'm already moving on. Burning a couple of dvd's a week is now about all I need to do, so using pc-based solutions work just fine. And I still have my Panny to burn stuff off of my Dish dvr.
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post #68 of 156 Old 02-01-2012, 09:09 PM
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Put this together after combing through manuals of some of the products I've been looking at recently.

Feel free to suggest any other products to add to this chart, or other features. I focused on the features that were important to me.

Hauppauge Hauppauge AverMedia AverMedia AverMedia
Colossus 1212 PVR Game Capture C281 DarkCrystal HD C874 HD Capture Card C027
Type PCIe Ext USB Standalone Ext USB PCIe
HDMI input yes no no no yes
Component Input shared* yes yes yes yes
Component Passthru yes yes yes yes no
Composite/SVideo Input shared* / no yes / yes no yes yes
Optical audio input/passthru yes yes no no no
Bitrates 1Mb - 20Mb 1Mb - 13.5Mb 3Mb - 15Mb (3 settings) 6Mb - 10Mb ? Adjustable
Resolutions 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i 480i 480p 720p 1080i
HD Encoding Formats H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 / MPEG2
SD Encoding Formats H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 H.264 / MPEG2
File Container Formats avchd/.ts m2ts avi avchd/ts m2ts avi avi avchd/.ts .ts avi wmv mpg
Audio Encoding Format ac3 2.0 5.1 ac3 2.0 5.1 mp3 2.0 ? ?
Hardware/Software Encoding hardware hardware hardware hardware software
Storage / Burning PC / AVCHD DVD PC / AVCHD DVD INT/EXT HDD PC / AVCHD DVD PC / MPEG DVD
IR blaster yes yes no yes no
Remote yes yes yes no no

*shared means that in order to connect a composite video cable, you must use the blue connector of the component input.
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post #69 of 156 Old 02-02-2012, 05:57 AM
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Great chart dare2be. Thanks for taking the time to create it!
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post #70 of 156 Old 02-03-2012, 03:28 PM
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That's a good matrix but you might add frame rate and audio bitrate.

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post #71 of 156 Old 02-03-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

It may be easy, but any re-encoding will be another lossy step, plus add more processing time and power needed to do the conversion. With a high volume load of captured content, that conversion step would be time prohibitive and likely qualitatively detrimental.

Remuxing from avi doesn't necessarily require re-encoding. AVIDemux can copy the video and audio streams to various containers.

I use MakeMKV which rips DVD-video (such as Funai-written disks) to MKV files and it only copies the streams (one MKV file per title). But I will also re-encode at times using encoders in Handbrake to AVC/AAC to get better compression than MPEG2 MP@ML/AC3.

You can always use DVD disks as data disks to hold MKVs or MP4s.

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post #72 of 156 Old 02-04-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott967 View Post

That's a good matrix but you might add frame rate and audio bitrate.

I would have, if I could have found that info in the downloaded manuals...
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post #73 of 156 Old 02-04-2012, 08:25 AM
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I have an idea I'd like people's opinion on...

I have a Roku that I use to stream Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, etc. It has composite outputs and an HDMI output. I suspect that even if I bought one of the PC-based recorders from the grid above, I wouldn't be able to use the HDMI input to record from the Roku due to HDCP issues.

So, assuming I'm using a Hauppauge 1212, what do you think would be the best final result as far as quality goes:

1. Connect the Roku composite out to the 1212 and record SD AVCHD/H.264 directly

2. Record the Roku composite out signal onto a Mag recorder's HDD in HQ mode, and then use its upconvert circuitry and connect its component outputs to the 1212 to record in upconverted pseudo-HD?

With option 2, would I just end up with a resultant file that is larger but of no significant quality improvement?

EDIT: Is anyone with these pieces of equipment willing to do any comparison tests?
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post #74 of 156 Old 02-04-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:


With option 2, would I just end up with a resultant file that is larger but of no significant quality improvement?

yep.
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post #75 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post


2. Record the Roku composite out signal onto a Mag recorder's HDD in HQ mode, and then use its upconvert circuitry and connect its component outputs to the 1212 to record in upconverted pseudo-HD?

I didn't think the Roku composite out would record to the Mag HDD. Hmmm. I have an old one that I may play with - I remember trying to record when I first got the maggie, but maybe something else was set differently. The streaming video was not recordable at that time.

Oh, upon re-reading, I guess you're asking about passing through the mag to go to the 1212 where it would be recorded. Guess I got too excited
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post #76 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by artwire View Post

I didn't think the Roku composite out would record to the Mag HDD.

It would, although you might need a "video filter" in between. There's more information on them in this forum.
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post #77 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 03:53 PM
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No, I did mean to record to the HDD first in HQ mode. I have successfully done the following:

Hulu with no video filter
Amazon with a Sima CopyMaster
Netflix would not record, even with the Copymaster. I haven't tried any other brand of filter, though.
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post #78 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

No, I did mean to record to the HDD first in HQ mode. I have successfully done the following:

Hulu with no video filter
Amazon with a Sima CopyMaster
Netflix would not record, even with the Copymaster.

That's good to know, as I've got a Sima, too. I just haven't tried recording from my Roku yet, as there really hasn't been anything I've wanted that badly (I don't have any pay services).

But I have a friend who would really like some of those old silents, like off of Hub-D-Pub.
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post #79 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

But I have a friend who would really like some of those old silents, like off of Hub-D-Pub.

If they are public domain you should be able to download them from archive.org.
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post #80 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

That's good to know, as I've got a Sima, too. I just haven't tried recording from it yet, as there really hasn't been anything I've wanted that badly (I don't have any pay services).

But I have a friend who would really like some of those old silents, like off of Hub-D-Pub.

For instance, I got the entire Wonder Years series from Amazon, knowing that there is slim to no chance of it ever being released on DVD/BRD, because of the amount of music rights issues.

Recently I got a bunch of A&E Evening at the Improv episodes from Hulu that I havent seen in almost 20 years.
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post #81 of 156 Old 02-11-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Recently I got a bunch of A&E Evening at the Improv episodes from Hulu that I havent seen in almost 20 years.

You mean back when A&E actually showed A&E, and not reality programming
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post #82 of 156 Old 02-14-2012, 09:50 PM
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Since I didn't see it in the first post I thought I'd mention that, although I don't know much about them, there are FTA PVR tuner boxes that have atsc recorders built in for the OTA crowd.

Here's a Google Shopping rundown:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fta+...1111l3-2.1l3l0


Also is it certain that the days of the Funai/Magnavox HDD models are over? I saw that JR.com is no longer selling the refurb models anymore which is disappointing...hopefully they'll come back.
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post #83 of 156 Old 02-15-2012, 01:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedGord View Post

Also is it certain that the days of the Funai/Magnavox HDD models are over? I saw that JR.com is no longer selling the refurb models anymore which is disappointing...hopefully they'll come back.

No, it's not certain at all... here's hoping!
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post #84 of 156 Old 02-15-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedGord View Post

...Also is it certain that the days of the Funai/Magnavox HDD models are over? I saw that JR.com is no longer selling the refurb models anymore which is disappointing...hopefully they'll come back.

Nothing is certain I guess. After being missing for a rather long time, J&R seems to have restocked the Panasonic DMR EH59, which I thought they wold not do again. They no longer LIST the 513/515 referbs, but if another batch show up, you can bet that the listing will reappear.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #85 of 156 Old 02-15-2012, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

No, it's not certain at all... here's hoping!

That is good news! I will hope!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

After being missing for a rather long time, J&R seems to have restocked the Panasonic DMR EH59, which I thought they wold not do again.

Weird. For some reason that model didn't show up for me when I searched on the site for DVD Recorder but when i used the model number you gave it was there.

It's a shame the Europeans units don't include an atsc tuner in addition to the DVB-T for the North American market. You'd think it'd only add a couple bucks and would enable them to sell the unit in North America.
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post #86 of 156 Old 02-15-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedGord View Post

It's a shame the Europeans units don't include an atsc tuner in addition to the DVB-T for the North American market. You'd think it'd only add a couple bucks and would enable them to sell the unit in North America.

One or more of more onerous [DRM,Copyright,Patent] liabilities are probably why the land of the free and home of the brave gets fewer offerings.

Genuine HD via ATSC and BUD satellite DVB.
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post #87 of 156 Old 02-16-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedGord View Post

...Weird. For some reason that model didn't show up for me when I searched on the site for DVD Recorder but when i used the model number you gave it was there.

It's a shame the Europeans units don't include an atsc tuner in addition to the DVB-T for the North American market. You'd think it'd only add a couple bucks and would enable them to sell the unit in North America.

I do a search for "DVD recorder hdd" and it found that model.

Adding that tuner would make a trivial cost increase to the hardware of the unit, but the software (firmware) would be a programming nightmare. Only one DVD recorder has managed to do it well, and that is the Magnavox 513 and 515 models.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #88 of 156 Old 02-23-2012, 07:22 PM
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post #89 of 156 Old 02-28-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

See #2 link on pg 1, post 1.

I think there's at least a million old DVDR farts who'd croak just reading the headlines in those forums... thus, the purpose of this forum.. a "halfway house"!

Computer geeks need to have some empathy... get outside your skin and consider how "those other people" live and think!

You created this thread for someone just like me and yes, we are out here.

I'm one of those 'stone-age' people who likes to record a show now and again to a dvd recorder so I can watch it when and where I'd like. Record a few movies off of the tv for my special needs son (specifically because they are edited for tv - many movies have too much crap I'd rather him not watch).

I currently have two dvd recorders; a 4/5 yr old Toshiba DR560 which works perfectly (except for the loud annoying squeal when turned off so it's left on all the time) and a 2 yr old refurbished Magnavox VCR/DVD recorder combo that I bought from J&R and which is now on the fritz on the dvd side.

I refuse to pay money to rent a dvr box from Comcast to record shows. I've mostly migrated to VOD or Hulu/sidereel sites (oh yes, I do miss megavideo) but there are times when 3 shows that I like are on at the same time and it's easy for me to record two of them (one on each recorder), watch the third then when that goes off I can go into another room and watch what I recorded. I'm not locked into multiply dvr rentals because I can just take my dvd into the next room. I don't understand why dvd recorders never really caught on the way the vcr recorders did. It's perplexing.

My question is . . . do I try and replace the fritzy dvd recorder? And with what? I've searched high and low and there is hardly anything out there. I did have my eye on the Magnavox DVR/DVD (513H) recorder from Walmart. It just went up $30 since yesterday (it's now $250) and $50 in the past 6 weeks or so. I probably should have bought it when it was cheaper but . . who knew? And will I pay $250 just to have the thing break in a few years . . just after the $30/3 yr extended warranty expires? Oh and the tv in our bedroom uses a dta (from Comcast, no On Demand box, just the cable channesl) that only has coax in/out, which means I have to find a dvd recorder with a tuner in order to record from the dta. Although I was wondering if I bought a non-coax recorder couldn't I just use the fritzy dvd recorder's coax in then rca out to the new recorder? I am a geek-less type but understand enough if its explained clearly. I did figure out how to record one show while watching another in our family room (all hail the a/b video switch!) but again, that recorder has a tuner and when that machines goes . . . Almost puts me into a panic and makes me want to go out and buy up like 5 dvd recorders while I still can! lol

Where do you all find a selection of dvd recorders? I look in the usual places . . . Walmart, Amazon, Target, Best Buy. I'm extremely reluctant to purchase another refurbished anything (like I did from J&R) because . . . two years? really? or am I expecting too much in thinking these things will last any longer than that? And in two years . . . will dvd players, let alone recorders, even exist?

Thanks for any not-too-technical-but-rather-in-simplified-laymens-speak advice/info anyone can offer.
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post #90 of 156 Old 02-28-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomc View Post

I don't understand why dvd recorders never really caught on the way the vcr recorders did. It's perplexing.

It's a long story, but basically those cable DVRs you and the rest of us here despise were embraced by most of America. They have limitations, but most of those limitations are seen by us who use and appreciate DVD recorders, and aren't even on the radar for your average Joe who just wants to set the recording, watch it, and delete it.

Yeah, average Joe could have used a TVGOS DVD recorder, but he didn't. DVD recorders, while not that complicated, were incrementally more complex than VCRs (which were the only way to record when it was king.) DVRs were seen as "good enough" and DVD recorders were "HOW DO I WORK THIS BLASTED THING!?"

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Although I was wondering if I bought a non-coax recorder couldn't I just use the fritzy dvd recorder's coax in then rca out to the new recorder?

That might work. If you get video from it to a TV, a DVD recorder will also see it.

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I'm extremely reluctant to purchase another refurbished anything (like I did from J&R) because . . . two years? really? or am I expecting too much in thinking these things will last any longer than that?

Two years is pretty much the norm for most electronics in this miserable age of planned obsolescence, with a couple of (expensive) exceptions. But most of the refurbed 513s and such aren't actually refurbs, they're just returns from people who couldn't figure them out. Lots of reports of new or near new units from J&R, who couldn't sell them as new since they were opened.

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And in two years . . . will dvd players, let alone recorders, even exist?

Yes, probably as Blu-ray players, but those have always played DVDs. Discs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, just the ability to record.

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