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post #1 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Audio quality to recording time, I know that longer record times are compressing the video, But does it also compress the audio ? Will 1 hour be as good as 8 hour for audio quality ? Is there a chart ? I don't care about video, just want to record music at the best sound quality, but also want the longest record time.
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post #2 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

Audio quality to recording time, I know that longer record times are compressing the video, But does it also compress the audio ? Will 1 hour be as good as 8 hour for audio quality ? Is there a chart ? I don't care about video, just want to record music at the best sound quality, but also want the longest record time.


Best bet is to try it. I'm recording a radio broadcast right now and only using LP because I wanted it to fit on a single disc. I couldnt really hear a major difference at higher quality setting , but this tuner is not getting a perfect signal, so it's not going to make that much difference. My advice (if you're recording from a preexisting source, not live) is to try it a few ways and see if you can detect a significant enough difference. As I said, my situation was based on just play to listen later, not a critical archival recording, so I could safely use the lesser 4 hr setting.
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post #3 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 12:11 PM
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Depends on the recorder. My Philips and Magnavox HDD DVDRs (DVD+VR Std) record the same audio bit rate for all rec modes, but my Pioneer 531 and 640 record diff. audio bit rates.

Here's a Mbps chart for a Philips or Magnavox, which operates on the DVD+VR Standard:

Audio Bit Rates (Mbps) with Video Cable OFF
Using DVD+VR DVDR Like Philips and Magnavox


. . . . . . . . . Mbps w/Vid
Rec Mode . . .Cable OFF
1-hr-HQ. . . . . 0.87
2-hr-SP . . . . . 0.87
2½-hr-SPP . . .0.84
3-hr-LP. . . . . .0.84
4-hr-EP. . . . . .0.84
6-hr-SLP . . . . 0.84

Max. Audio in 6-hr-SLP Rec Mode with This DVDR
~5:39:55 w/High-Speed Dub (HSD) HDD>DVD.
~6:49:33 Direct-to-DVD.

* * * * * * *

For comparison, here's a chart from previous tests on my Pio 640 (would be approx. same in Panasonic and other DVD-Video Std) where I couldn't tell ANY diff. between rec modes and my sharp-eared wife THOUGHT she detected a very small diff. only at LPCM:

Audio Bit Rates¹ (Mbps) with Video Cable OFF
Using DVD-Video DVDR like Pio/Panny


. . . . . . . Mbps¹ w/Vid
Mode . . .Cable OFF
MN1 . . . . . 0.24
SP. . . . . . . 0.60
LP. . . . . . . .0.55
EP . . . . . . .0.29
SLP . . . . . .0.29
SEP . . . . . .0.29
XP . . . . . . .9.72
LPCM . . . . .9.72²

¹VBR (variable) but observed for centerpoint on Pio with bit meter running.
²LPCM w/Vid cable off was rock steady (no fluctuation). Slight flucuatation with LPCM at XP.

Max. Calculated Audio with Pioneer at MN1 & Video Cable OFF (0.24Mbps)
SL Disc = 41 hrs
DL Disc = 79 hrs

* * * * * * *

See also this help file for some VERY ODD stuff in dubbing or recording-direct-to-disc with Philips/Magnavox audio files.

* * * * * * *


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post #4 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I just want CD Audio quality, no more, no less..... What would be the max time ? I know 1 hour woud be the best, but could I use 2,4,6,8 hours with NO loss in Audio quality? I could try them all, but I am looking for a easy answer.
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post #5 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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@wajo
I am using a Philips dvd recorder, it seems that all record times should yield the same audio quality.
Thanks for the info !!!
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post #6 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 01:18 PM
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For reference, Panasonic has the same AQ from 1-6 hrs but the 8hr speed drops the quality of the audio to save space. Like Pioneer, with Panasonic you have the option of basically lossless LPCM but only in XP or the 1hr mode.
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post #7 of 15 Old 01-28-2012, 01:55 PM
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You can't get CD audio quality on a DVD recorder. They record in AC-3 (compressed) at various bitrates depending on the manufacturer or record uncompressed LPCM audio in 16 bit/48 kHz. CD audio is 16bit/44.1 kHz. Also, are you looking to make CDs from these recordings? If so, Panasonic machines will only record to DVD, not sure about other manufacturers.
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post #8 of 15 Old 01-29-2012, 09:06 PM
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I have recorded from LPs and CDs, in LPCM on my Pio 640, and they sound great. That's 62m per disc. I can't tell the difference from the original. However, I am 63 years old, and male. My hearing is normal, but we all start losing our HF hearing in our 20s, males losing it more, and faster, than women.

Wajo may remember, but IIRC, when the Pio 640 first came out, it was discovered that if you disconnected the video input, you get longer audio recording times.
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post #9 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i86time View Post

You can't get CD audio quality on a DVD recorder. They record in AC-3 (compressed) at various bitrates depending on the manufacturer or record uncompressed LPCM audio in 16 bit/48 kHz. CD audio is 16bit/44.1 kHz. Also, are you looking to make CDs from these recordings? If so, Panasonic machines will only record to DVD, not sure about other manufacturers.

As you pointed out, uncompressed PCM audio for DVD-Video is sampled higher than uncompressed PCM CD audio. Not that it matters but I believe CD high frequencies go to something like 20k and DVD-Video (audio) frequencies go to something like 22k which almost no human can hear. I remember hearing somewhere they used the higher sampling due to sync issues with video, not sure how correct that is. In any case both formats have higher frequencies than most adults over 30 can hear. I believe all other specs like low frequencies and dynamic range are the same between CD and DVD sound. Wow & Flutter is pretty well eliminated.
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post #10 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

...I don't care about video, just want to record music at the best sound quality, but also want the longest record time.

  • What's your technical expertise level?
    .
  • What device do you plan to play back the audio files on?
    .
  • Do the original / source audio files come with video or are they audio only?
    .
  • What do you intent to play these audio files on? DVD or CD?
If you're over 30, you can't hear much, if any, over 20 khz so why record it? If the source is 'Audio Only', I'd consider using a PC and recording .WAV files through a sound card. Then, from the lossless .WAV files, you can try lossless FLAC (~50% reduction in size) or MP3 @ 256 or MP3 @ 192 (more than 50% the lower you go) and see how it sounds to you.

If the source is 'Audio/Video', I'd consider writing the files to finalized R/Ws, copy them to a PC, and DEMUX (separate the one A/V file, into 2 files - Video and Audio). Then I'd look at converting the audio (MP2?) into a format playable on CDs, MP3 players, DVD players, etc...

It's been YEARS since I was 'fluent' in this topic - back when I was ripping DVDs and burning SVCDs - late 1990's / early 2000s? I GOOGLE'D: "define:demux" and here are three sample LINKs for you to read (IIRC, VCDHelp, Doom9 and AfterDawn were my favorite sites):
  1. Doom9: how to demux audio from mpeg2 file
    .
  2. AfterDawn: Demux
    .
  3. VCDHelp: GOOGLE Cache of VCDHelp results - couldn't get site to load
Good Luck!

BTW, when I first bought my Sony SLV-676UC VCR (*BEFORE* I bought my Sony CDP-CX210 200 CD Changer), I remember recording SEVERAL CDs onto VHS tapes @ EP (6 hours) because the sound quality was SO good!

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post #11 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 11:05 AM
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[quote=wajo;21562394]Depends on the recorder.
Audio Bit Rates (Mbps) with Video Cable OFF
Using DVD+VR DVDR Like Philips and Magnavox


. . . . . . . . . Mbps w/Vid
Rec Mode . . .[u]Cable OFF[/U QUOTE]\\


Do you think it degrades the audio recording if you leave the video yellow cable plugged in? (that is, does it change the recording 'format", even tho' it's not getting a video signal, per se? The Video is black. I thought it might reduce static, but it may be reducing the audio. Seems ok, but noticed yours says VID CABLE OFF)
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post #12 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 11:18 AM
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DVDs record more audio information than the human ear can pick up anyway. As I understand it, that's why the mini-disc was possible. They sliced off the range of sounds outside the average human's hearing, and less info had to be recorded on the discs.

MP3 format also fits far more on a CD than traditional audio CD format can. I'm going to guess you can record on a DVD audio that's fine for listening, and that most people wouldn't notice any difference.
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post #13 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 11:33 AM
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I made a lot of recordings of books on CD on my Philips 3576 onto DVD -R discs,and found to my surprise that there was no extra recording time available even tho' the video cord was disconnected.I tried various speeds,SP,SPP,LP and even EP.There also seemed to be no advantage to recording at SP over EP as far as audio quality goes,but that was with books on CD,not music. YMMV. All of my CD books were recorded to the HDD,then HSD to disc.
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post #14 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 11:49 AM
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[quote=artwire;21571079]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Depends on the recorder.
Audio Bit Rates (Mbps) with Video Cable OFF
Using DVD+VR DVDR Like Philips and Magnavox


. . . . . . . . . Mbps w/Vid
Rec Mode . . .[u]Cable OFF[/U QUOTE]\\


Do you think it degrades the audio recording if you leave the video yellow cable plugged in? (that is, does it change the recording 'format", even tho' it's not getting a video signal, per se? The Video is black. I thought it might reduce static, but it may be reducing the audio. Seems ok, but noticed yours says VID CABLE OFF)

No, I did tests with vid cable on and off. No static or diff. in audio quality (AQ) on the Philips or the Pio 531/640.

The Pio 640 did have a slightly higher Mbps rate with video cable on but no video signal, but I took those off my charts cuz they just looked unnecessarily confusing.


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post #15 of 15 Old 01-30-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

  • What's your technical expertise level?
    .
  • What device do you plan to play back the audio files on?
    .
  • Do the original / source audio files come with video or are they audio only?
    .
  • What do you intent to play these audio files on? DVD or CD?
If you're over 30, you can't hear much, if any, over 20 khz so why record it? If the source is 'Audio Only', I'd consider using a PC and recording .WAV files through a sound card. Then, from the lossless .WAV files, you can try lossless FLAC (~50% reduction in size) or MP3 @ 256 or MP3 @ 192 (more than 50% the lower you go) and see how it sounds to you.

If the source is 'Audio/Video', I'd consider writing the files to finalized R/Ws, copy them to a PC, and DEMUX (separate the one A/V file, into 2 files - Video and Audio). Then I'd look at converting the audio (MP2?) into a format playable on CDs, MP3 players, DVD players, etc...

It's been YEARS since I was 'fluent' in this topic - back when I was ripping DVDs and burning SVCDs - late 1990's / early 2000s? I GOOGLE'D: "define:demux" and here are three sample LINKs for you to read (IIRC, VCDHelp, Doom9 and AfterDawn were my favorite sites):
  1. Doom9: how to demux audio from mpeg2 file
    .
  2. AfterDawn: Demux
    .
  3. VCDHelp: GOOGLE Cache of VCDHelp results - couldn't get site to load
Good Luck!

BTW, when I first bought my Sony SLV-676UC VCR (*BEFORE* I bought my Sony CDP-CX210 200 CD Changer), I remember recording SEVERAL CDs onto VHS tapes @ EP (6 hours) because the sound quality was SO good!

I recently did an audio recording to DVD using my Mag at SLP mode, HSD to disc, finalize, and then used the stream processing option from DVD Decrypter on my PC to just extract the audio. It created a .VOB file that I renamed to wav and then was able to encode it to mp3 using an audio conversion program.
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