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post #31 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 12:00 PM
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I prefer to use DVD-R disks, the Magnavox has had less issues with them.
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post #32 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 12:11 PM
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My anecdotal evidence says that in my exclusive use of Verbatim AZO 8x +R media, I can't remember the last time I had any issues.
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post #33 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1 View Post

CityBear, I'm not sure you are accurate in your discussion of DVD-R and DVD+R in the last paragraph of your last post.

I understand from posts here and from initially reviewing some of the pages wajo refers to that DVD-R is the older format, DVD+R is the newer format, and DVD+R may be better for long-term archiving in that the disks themselves may hold up better over time.

ed1, the -R vs +R media debate is not as relevant today as it was several years ago. So the opinions you are speaking of, while accurate in one sense, don't really mean anything in day-to-day use with current hardware. The supposed "advantages" of +R (newer format, minor editing features, superior engineering) are more theoretical than real. Here's the actual story: the first generation of consumer DVD recorders in 2003 were very very expensive. A small but significant part of this expense was the paying of royalties to patent holders of DVD-R to sell hardware using DVD-R format. This didn't sit well with some of the large electronics OEMs that specialize in subcontracting more-or-less the same recorder for multiple well-known brand names. At the time, they badly wanted to sell a budget DVD recorder for the mass market but found the DVD-R license royalty to be an impediment. To get around this, they created the new sub-format +R for themselves, which saved them the expense of paying -R royalties.

There were other reasons: early DVD recorders did not have hard drives, and DVD-R has no ability to edit recordings. By developing the +R format after -R had launched, the +R backers could see this flaw and designed +R to allow editing (albeit limited editing: you can "hide" parts of the recording you want to delete, but they remain on the disc using up space). By its very nature, +R was a threat to the -R standard and the -R backers did not like this. So for the first few years of DVD recorders, machines were divided between compatibility with +R only or -R only. When this proved to be a terrible idea that stalled sales for everyone, the two camps made peace, and by 2005 just about all hardware worked with both +R and -R (with some exceptions like Panasonic, which never really was happy with +R and still isn't). A few years later, prices of HDD equipped recorders dropped to the level of previous DVD-only recorders, and the minimal editing advantage of +R over -R was rendered moot (the HDD in recorders like the Magnavox is WAY easier and more flexible for editing, you don't burn the disc until everything is laid out exactly how you want it).

Basically, when you get down to the nitty gritty, +R was a scam hardware mfrs cooked up to get around paying license fees to make DVD-R recorders. In the lab +R does give the appearance of being "technically superior" but in the real world thats a crock and there's no reason to use it unless you have an old recorder that needs it, or you have a DVD-only recorder and need whatever tiny amount of editing +R offers. If you have a PC or a DVD/HDD recorder, -R remains the the standard and most gear works slightly better with it. As all blank media has become cheapened over the years to meet lower price points, the balance has shifted slightly in favor of -R (because it sells in higher volume). Current +R media is showing the results of cost-cutting worse than -R at the moment. The Magnavox itself is a product of one of the original +R backers, so you would think it would work better with +R, but it doesn't: fewer owners report failures with -R.

All the above relates to write-once permanent versions of the formats, -R and +R, what most people use for their personal long-term video archives. The situation reverses with the eraseable reusable "convenience" versions of these formats: DVD+RW is generally much preferable to DVD-RW unless you have a very old player that can't read +RW. Because it is rewritable, +RW can fully exploit the editing advantages that are hemmed in by the write-once +R format. If you own a DVD recorder without HDD, using DVD+RW will approximate the features of an HDD much better than DVD-RW. But here again, there are exceptions: Panasonics are still really unhappy when you load them with +RW. And if you own a DVD recorder with HDD, you don't need RW at all unless you make a habit of ripping your TV recordings to you PC and want to recycle the same "transfer" disc over and over.


Quote:


My present DVD player is older than the DVD+R format and will not play it. If I get rid of my present player, which I am considering, it would be partly to gain the ability to play DVD+R.

Sorry, I was a bit confused by this in your previous posts. It seemed as if you were saying your old DVD player had worn out in some weird way that left it able to play only +R discs and not -R anymore. Now that you've clarified that its simply old, and doesn't play +R but does play -R, your answer is much simpler: just forget about +R. You don't need to use it at all. The Magnavox is perfectly happy to burn -R discs that will be compatible with your older player. Again, despite all the "white papers" and "lab tests" extolling +R there is no real-world consumer advantage whatever in terms of burn quality or archival quality over -R (there's no price advantage, either: they cost the same). You can use -R with no fear you're "missing out" on some supposed +R technical superiority. The only reason you might ever need + instead of - would be for discs you reuse to rip files to a PC, or lend to people who will return them to you to record something else for them. When you need a reusable disc, +RW is usually better than -RW. Otherwise, -R all the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

My anecdotal evidence says that in my exclusive use of Verbatim AZO 8x +R media, I can't remember the last time I had any issues.

This brings out another hotly debated topic: 8x media vs 16x. If at all possible, 8x is preferable and dare2be is correct that no reports have been posted from anyone having difficulty with 8x +R in the Magnavox. Unfortunately, not everyone has the patience to deal with the online ordering required to buy 8x media. Those who much prefer buying blank discs in retail stores will only find 16x media available to them. Most 16x media is not designed for recorders: it works, but you can experience occasional (or frequent) problems. The best 16x media for recorder use is Verbatim AZO: of these, the current 16x +R AZO has been more inconsistent than the 16x -R AZO when used in Magnavox recorders. If using 16x media, stick to -R. If using 8x, +R or -R should be equally good.
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post #34 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:01 PM
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I think the most important thing with DVDs is to get HIGH QUALITY discs, especially for family video archiving.

A good quality DVD-R is superior to a crappy quality DVD+R anyday.

A good quality DVD+R is superior to a crappy quality DVD-R anyday.

The differences in real use between a DVD-R and DVD+R are infinitesimal. The most important thing is to find a disc that will read in your intended players (in this case, it sounds like DVD+R is out) and buy the best quality discs possible. A WELL MANUFACTURED blank disc will last for years/decades. The supposed improvements in DVD+R in terms of readability don't mean a lot if you buy poor quality discs where the dye has issues, fades over time, etc.

Unfortunately, most discs available in your local office or computer supply store are garbage-- including, sadly, the recent Verbatim "Life" discs in white packaging. The older Verbatim AZO discs were great, DVD+R or DVD-R.

The "gold standard" for discs, IMHO, is still the Taiyo Yuden 8x (a lot of us older-timers think the older, slower 8x media was superior to the later 16x media), although I will admit I haven't bought many of them since JVC bought them out. I still think it's worth it to spend a bit more, get the best quality discs possible, and go from there.
http://www.supermediastore.com/produ...r-zz-sb8-100pk

Here are their +R discs...
http://www.supermediastore.com/produ...us-r-media-100

My strategy for "important" discs is to always burn *at least* 2 copies, to 2 *different* high quality brands (Taiyo Yuden/ older Verbatim/ older Sony). That way if one type of disc blows up in time, hopefully the 2nd copy will stay readable.

These say they are "DatalifePlus" so they should still be the older style and higher quality Verbatim blanks..
http://www.supermediastore.com/produ...4854-rebate-50
or
http://www.supermediastore.com/produ...-50-pk-product

Hopefully this is of some help as you start your project.

(and I just read CitiBear's post just above mine and agree with pretty much everything he says. )
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post #35 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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So much information, coming in so fast!! Thanks to all.

A very simple question. I see DVD disks for sale in either "silver" or "white". I think I know that the white ones can be put directly into a computer DVD drive that is Lightscribe compatible. Is this correct? (Don't know if I have Lightscribe software to make it work, though.)

Can labels for these disks be printed on an inkjet computer printer? How?

EDIT: I think I'm figuring it out. The silver is lacquer coated for Lightscribe printing. The white is for inkjet printing. But, how do you print these with an inkjet printer. Or, does one print paper stick-on labels?
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post #36 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:38 PM
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Some HP and Epson inkjet printers can print on DVDs. I use the White-top discs for that with my HP and, previously, an Epson. Look for a disc in the pic or a mention in the specs. My Epson had better SW for printing than my current HP.

Never use paper labels.
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post #37 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1 View Post

So much information, coming in so fast!! Thanks to all.

A very simple question. I see DVD disks for sale in either "silver" or "white". I think I know that the white ones can be put directly into a computer DVD drive that is Lightscribe compatible. Is this correct? (Don't know if I have Lightscribe software to make it work, though.)

Can labels for these disks be printed on an inkjet computer printer? How?

EDIT: I think I'm figuring it out. The silver is lacquer coated for Lightscribe printing. The white is for inkjet printing. But, how do you print these with an inkjet printer. Or, does one print paper stick-on labels?

Not exactly. They're just colors. Lightscribe discs are marked as such, and cost a lot more. And you do need a Lightscribe capable burner. They're a neat effect but I have found the discs fade pretty easily over time.

White provides the best background for printing. Silver printable just have a silver background. Plain ol' silver lacquer is the most generic type, isn't printable, and is just a plain silver to write on with a pen.

NEVER use printable labels, they can make discs spin poorly/uneven (if they're not applied PERFECTLY) and eventually they do almost always seem to peel/bubble up/etc which will make them problematic. Yes, they look "cool" but it's not worth it for the data loss/drive problems they invite.

If you want to make nice discs, get a printer that can print directly onto the printable discs.

At this point, the printable discs were always the most expensive, so that's why they have a lot of 8X, etc, left over.
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post #38 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmscott42 View Post

My strategy for "important" discs is to always burn *at least* 2 copies, to 2 *different* high quality brands (Taiyo Yuden/ older Verbatim/ older Sony). That way if one type of disc blows up in time, hopefully the 2nd copy will stay readable.

My strategy is to backup the contents of the DVD to an .ISO file on an external hard drive using free Imgburn software. Less costly per gigabyte.
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post #39 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, guys, thanks for the add'l info. I think I'll go with the Taiyo Yuden 8X silver DVD-R and just label them with a Sharpie pen.
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post #40 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1 View Post

OK, guys, thanks for the add'l info. I think I'll go with the Taiyo Yuden 8X silver DVD-R and just label them with a Sharpie pen.

I use half-height slim dvd jewel cases and make my labels on the cases. Might be paranoid of me, but I prefer not to mark my long term archival discs with sharpies.
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post #41 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmscott42 View Post

Not exactly. They're just colors. Lightscribe discs are marked as such, and cost a lot more. And you do need a Lightscribe capable burner. They're a neat effect but I have found the discs fade pretty easily over time.

White provides the best background for printing. Silver printable just have a silver background. Plain ol' silver lacquer is the most generic type, isn't printable, and is just a plain silver to write on with a pen.

NEVER use printable labels, they can make discs spin poorly/uneven (if they're not applied PERFECTLY) and eventually they do almost always seem to peel/bubble up/etc which will make them problematic. Yes, they look "cool" but it's not worth it for the data loss/drive problems they invite.

If you want to make nice discs, get a printer that can print directly onto the printable discs.

At this point, the printable discs were always the most expensive, so that's why they have a lot of 8X, etc, left over.

Well actually the Casio disk printers did a decent job of printing on silver DVD's. I posted a picture of the text I printed in a JVC/TY silver DVD in post #17 in the Casio CW-100 thread close to this one. I just tried to post a link to that thread but I guess I don't know how? Right now that thread is close to this thread. The printing looks real good but taking a picture of a silver DVD is next to impossible using a flash camera.

I don't know if the Casio CW-100 is still available but I think somebody in that thread mention some other disk printers?

Dave
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post #42 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC E100 View Post

Well actually the Casio disk printers did a decent job of printing on silver DVD's. I posted a picture of the text I printed in a JVC/TY silver DVD in post #17 in the Casio CW-100 thread close to this one. I just tried to post a link to that thread but I guess I don't know how?

Just look in (i.e. QUOTE) anyone's post where there's a LINK - preferably with a TEXT description and not a RAW URL.

Here's a direct LINK to the Thumbnail Attachment from Post #17:
Click image for larger version Name: DVD Label 2 003.JPG Views: 9 Size: 191.6 KB ID: 235944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC E100 View Post

...The printing looks real good but taking a picture of a silver DVD is next to impossible using a flash camera...

Turn off the flash on your camera and use overhead incandescent or fluorescent lighting. Sometimes I even use a 150 Watt Floodlight in an "El Cheapo" Green Plastic 'Yard Stake or Screws' Mount bulb socket with ~4' cord, screwed to a ~16"x16" piece of plywood. I'll clamp the plywood to a floor joist, aim the light at my workbench and take a picture. Angle the light and angle the camera to avoid glare.

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post #43 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 08:32 PM
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And if you want to share with someone whose player recognizes -R only? ? ?
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post #44 of 58 Old 02-06-2012, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardT View Post

And if you want to share with someone whose player recognizes -R only? ? ?

Burn a digital copy to a -R disc?
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post #45 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Just noticed that WalMart has raised the price of the Magnavox 513 to $209.98.

Must be selling a few.
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post #46 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 12:44 PM
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MWAH HAH HAH!!!

Another has been assimilated!





Hey, you said it, not me.
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post #47 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC E100 View Post

Well actually the Casio disk printers did a decent job of printing on silver DVD's.
.
.
.
I don't know if the Casio CW-100 is still available but I think somebody in that thread mention some other disk printers?

Dave

Actually, the Casio label printers do a very good job of printing on the silver DVD (and CD) disk surfaces.

I was the one who posted a link to a current Casio disk label printer in the other thread.

Luke

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post #48 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Just look in (i.e. QUOTE) anyone's post where there's a LINK - preferably with a TEXT description and not a RAW URL.

Here's a direct LINK to the Thumbnail Attachment from Post #17:
Click image for larger version Name: DVD Label 2 003.JPG Views: 9 Size: 191.6 KB ID: 235944
Turn off the flash on your camera and use overhead incandescent or fluorescent lighting. Sometimes I even use a 150 Watt Floodlight in an "El Cheapo" Green Plastic 'Yard Stake or Screws' Mount bulb socket with ~4' cord, screwed to a ~16"x16" piece of plywood. I'll clamp the plywood to a floor joist, aim the light at my workbench and take a picture. Angle the light and angle the camera to avoid glare.

Amazing how you did that direct link to my picture attachment in the other thread. I have studied your instructions on how to do it but I guess my senior brain is not understanding yet just how you did it. But that is OK because the chances of me ever needing to do it again is slim to none.

I picked up this 14 megapixel GE camera at Menards (home improvement store similar to Lowes and Home Depot in other areas) for the grand sum of $40. It takes good pictures if you can figure out how to operate it. Apparently it wasn't designed for senior brains or fat fingers and poor eyesight. It sucks up 2 alkaline AA batteries in about 5 minutes. I studied the manual with reading glasses on to see just how to turn the flash OFF. Everytime I took a picture the flash was back ON. Apparently my battery saving attempts of turning OFF the camera automatically turns the flash back ON?
I grew up using cameras. I had Nikon F and a Canon 35mm camera with a f.95 lens. Now that is a big lens that covered part of the view finder window. It was the only lens I ever saw with an f-stop bigger than f1.2. I could take pictures on Tri-X in almost total darkness with no flash. I took video of our Church services for many years and put them on our local cable system using my own VHS, Hi8 and S-VHS video equipment. So I used to be productive with cameras and video. But this dinky 14 megapixel digital camera has me baffled. It is all menu driven using icons so small I can't see them, all controlled by 2 or 3 buttons that have to be pushed in the right sequence and are labeled in ways not even remotely connected to their function. It was almost midnight when I tried to take and post a picture of the DVD's I had just printed with my Casio CW-100. My few pictures that I did manage to take with the flash OFF were out of focus. So out of the 50 or so pictures I did take I found that 1 that did kind of show the quality of the Casio print quality. I did at the time think about doing it all again when the sun was shining and there was lots of ambient light but by that time I had lost interest in doing it again. When I was young my quality standards were much higher than they are now. Now I am happy to just wake up in the morning.

Thank You Clear ToLand for doing everything I wanted to do and for trying to educate me on how you did it. Tonight my brain must have shut down?

Dave
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post #49 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

I use half-height slim dvd jewel cases and make my labels on the cases. Might be paranoid of me, but I prefer not to mark my long term archival discs with sharpies.

I don't mark my long term archival discs with sharpies either. I use full height DVD cases I buy cheap and I mark those.
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post #50 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 06:52 PM
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Sharpies are alcohol based and alcohol is one of the recommended safe cleaners of polycarbonate.
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post #51 of 58 Old 02-07-2012, 07:14 PM
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Yes but I would hate for that alcohol to start seeping into the disc over time.
Just being careful that's all.
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post #52 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

I don't mark my long term archival discs with sharpies either. I use full height DVD cases I buy cheap and I mark those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Yes but I would hate for that alcohol to start seeping into the disc over time.
Just being careful that's all.

If worried, there are water-based Sharpies (or at least there were) specifically labeled for writing on optical disks and sold at a premium. Alcohol based Sharpies have no negative effect on polycarbonate, polycarbonate is not swollen by alcohol. Acetone (nail-polish remover) is the most damaging and will cause the disk to stress-crack -- it's quite dramatic actually. Flex a disk and put a drop of acetone at the crown of the flex and watch it split in half in less than a second.

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post #53 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 08:25 AM
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The "Sharpie" question has been covered here quite extensively and more or less shown not to be a problem with DVD-R. All the fear of Sharpies is leftover from CD-R, which we tend to forget is of different physical construction.

CD is a single polycarbonate disc with the dye and reflective layers on top protected by a thin coating of lacquer or sealant on the label side. Early CD-R could be easily damaged by either the hard nib of a pen pressing thru the lacquer to disturb the data layer and/or by alcohol from Sharpies soaking thru the lacquer and damaging the data. Because of this, (Sharpie eventually developed "media safe" markers that would not cause any damage.) When DVD was being designed, engineers took note of this glaring flaw in CD and took preventative measures. DVD consists of two thinner polycarbonate discs with the dye/reflective layer sandwiched between (the data is protected by polycarb on both label and reading sides). So within reason, normal use of alcohol-based markers is safe on DVD-R.

In my own library, I have hundreds of discs stored in their original cakebox spindles to save space (I don't have room for thousands of individual cases). Each disc is covered with program info I wrote with a Sharpie. I often make mistakes while labeling, and use an alcohol pad to erase part of it and relabel. The discs are then stacked in the little 50-count plastic cakeboxes they came in. Over the last seven years I have not encountered any failures or degradation from this type of labeling. Last year, you guys made me nervous, so I bought the "media safe" Sharpies a couple times until I realized I was paying triple the price of the alcohol version, and they don't last as long. I burn thru Sharpies like crazy with all the labeling I do, so went back to the alcohol version since they don't really hurt DVD-R.

They DO etch the lacquer "printable" coating of silver topped TY media very very slightly, and this can scare you the first time you notice: if you label a DVD-R and then wipe it off with alcohol, you might see a very faint transparent shadow where your writing was. I don't see any long-term problem with this, any possible damage from the Sharpie would have to be done in the half second the writing is wet: once dry, its inert. But if you are the least bit concerned, just use the water-based Sharpies made for CD-R. Though honestly, I long ago stopped worrying with CD-R and have been using alcohol Sharpies on those, too, for at least nine years with no problems. If Sharpies were that lethal, I think I would have noticed by now (a lot of my CD-Rs are old computer data that I reload at least once a year).
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post #54 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

Though honestly, I long ago stopped worrying with CD-R and have been using alcohol Sharpies on those, too, for at least nine years with no problems. If Sharpies were that lethal, I think I would have noticed by now (a lot of my CD-Rs are old computer data that I reload at least once a year).

I've also always used alcohol-based sharpies on my music and data CD's as well as my DVD's. Never a problem related to the marker.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #55 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 02:45 PM
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I just got in the habit of not marking my discs back in the beware of sharpie paranoid days. It's working out pretty good for me, as I never misplace my discs since I put them back in their cases right after use.

The thing is many of the folks here are continuously complaining about bad media, disc errors, don't use 16x media cause you'll get burned etc etc. Well I use 16x media for DVD and what ever speed is on sale for CD (usually 48x) and all my media works just fine thank you - from my over ten year old CDRs to all my DVDRs. And my video tapes dating back to 1979.

I realize that not using sharpies may be overkill but its just part of my over-all storage and handling strategy of my media.
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post #56 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

I just got in the habit of not marking my discs back in the beware of sharpie paranoid days. It's working out pretty good for me, as I never misplace my discs since I put them back in their cases right after use.

I too only label the casses. I use a post-it note, pull it off the stack and write on the lower part of the side with the glue. I then attach it to the inside of the clear top part of the case. It is very easily readable, can't be accidentally scraped or brushed off, but can be easily removed if you want.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #57 of 58 Old 02-08-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I too only label the casses. I use a post-it note, pull it off the stack and write on the lower part of the side with the glue. I then attach it to the inside of the clear top part of the case. It is very easily readable, can't be accidentally scraped or brushed off, but can be easily removed if you want.

To quote the Guinness commercials....BRILLIANT!
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post #58 of 58 Old 02-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I too only label the casses. I use a post-it note, pull it off the stack and write on the lower part of the side with the glue. I then attach it to the inside of the clear top part of the case. It is very easily readable, can't be accidentally scraped or brushed off, but can be easily removed if you want.

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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

To quote the Guinness commercials....BRILLIANT!

Yeah, I thought it was a great idea when I stole it from someone else on this forum a few years ago. I can't take credit for inventing it, but I can pass it along.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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