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post #1 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got a DVD recorder (Magnavox MDR513H/F7), and I tried to record a program. But at the end of the recording, I got a disc error. It happened twice, and I believe it might be because of a copyright signal sent during the broadcast. In the owner's manual troubleshooting section, it said this is a possibility. My question is: Is it possible to record the program from a DVR recording on my Comcast DVR to the Magnavox unit?
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post #2 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 09:43 AM
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If it IS a copyright signal, it usually won't let you start a copy process, but even then, there are filter/converters for that, as described here.

You can also check your discs to make sure they're one of the recommended DVD blanks, as described here.

There are other possibilities, but check your blank DVDs first. The Mag has a simple utility you can use to check the Mfgrs ID (MID) and see if they might be the "landfill" quality ref. in the literature.

Click the 1st link in my sig. for lots more info on your unit.
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post #3 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 10:27 AM
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Are you recording to the hdd first, or to a blank dvd?

Dazed and confused over high tech.

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post #4 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I tried to record straight to DVD
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post #5 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 11:19 AM
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Try it to the HDD to see if an error still occurs. Then if it doesn't, try then to HSD (high speed dub) to DVD.
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post #6 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeckard2 View Post

I tried to record straight to DVD

Early in my use of HDD/DVD recorders I made the mistake of recording one DVD with the direct to disc method. That was the first and only time I did that. I learned my lesson, I never leave a HDD/DVD recorder in the DVD mode with an empty disc in the tray. I figured that that one direct to disc mistake was probably equal to laser assembly wear and tear of high-speed dubbing several hundred DVDs.

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post #7 of 45 Old 02-06-2012, 11:10 PM
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j2, I've never had any copy protection issues with recording from my Comcast DVR tp my DVDRs, even from OnDemand.
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post #8 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigaDo View Post

Early in my use of HDD/DVD recorders I made the mistake of recording one DVD with the direct to disc method... ...I figured that that one direct to disc mistake was probably equal to laser assembly wear and tear of high-speed dubbing several hundred DVDs.

Referring back to a recent reply I made to another poster concerning DVD±RWs (which AFAIK max out @ 4X) and RTD vs HSD, the wear and tear on the laser was roughly proportional to the 'ON' time (*AND* the 'Power Level'). Rephrasing and expanding on that earlier statement of mine:
  • 90 minutes RTD to DVD±R, or DVD±RW, @ 1X = 90 minutes 'ON'
  • 90 minutes HSD to DVD±RW @ 4X = 22.5 minutes 'ON'
  • 90 minutes HSD to DVD±R @ 8X = 11.25 minutes 'ON'
Now 'Power Level' is a topic that I haven't invested much time in. A Funai chart from the 'Main FAQ' shows:


It says that the stats below were derived from the table above, but the 8X and 16X DVD±R 'Power Levels' are the MAXIMUMs and although the Funai table lists the 1-2.4X DVD+R and the DVD-R DL 'Power Levels' as a MIN to MAX range, the 'Summary Table' again lists *ONLY* the MAX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Taiyo Yuden Stats on MAX. RECORDING POWER REQD at 8X Burner "Speed"
2160/2160A/513/515 burners are 8X.
Stats derived from Table 4 of TY Doc mdvd_e, see chart below.
DVD Speed -R DVD +R DVD -R DL DVD
2-2.4X 12mW 15mW 32mW
8X 32mW 30mW 55mW
16X 50mW 53mW - -

But the bottom line of the point I'm attempting to make is NOT regarding the 'Summary Table' but that I don't believe that burning ONE RTD DVD/±R is anywhere near equal to SEVERAL HUNDRED HSD DVD±Rs. Yes, the laser is running at a higher 'Power Level', but only for 1/4 or 1/8 the amount of time.

I see, but don't understand, the 'Power Hit' for burning 16X DVD±Rs on an 8X burner. But, I've only burned ~200 DVD±Rs in all the years (4?) I've owned a DVDR (now I have 4) so I don't see that as a deterrent for me.

P.S. to DVDR Newbies for OPTIMUM performance / longevity:
  1. Buy quality 8X DVD±R blanks.
  2. Always record to the HDD first.
  3. Always HSD to the DVD±R.
  4. Live long and prosper.

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post #9 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Referring back to a recent reply I made to another poster concerning DVD±RWs (which AFAIK max out @ 4X) and RTD vs HSD, the wear and tear on the laser was roughly proportional to the 'ON' time (*AND* the 'Power Level'). Rephrasing and expanding on that earlier statement of mine:
  • 90 minutes RTD to DVD±R, or DVD±RW, @ 1X = 90 minutes 'ON'
  • 90 minutes HSD to DVD±RW @ 4X = 22.5 minutes 'ON'
  • 90 minutes HSD to DVD±R @ 8X = 11.25 minutes 'ON'
Now 'Power Level' is a topic that I haven't invested much time in. A Funai chart from the 'Main FAQ' shows:


It says that the stats below were derived from the table above, but the 8X and 16X DVD±R 'Power Levels' are the MAXIMUMs and although the Funai table lists the 1-2.4X DVD+R and the DVD-R DL 'Power Levels' as a MIN to MAX range, the 'Summary Table' again lists *ONLY* the MAX.

But the bottom line of the point I'm attempting to make is NOT regarding the 'Summary Table' but that I don't believe that burning ONE RTD DVD/±R is anywhere near equal to SEVERAL HUNDRED HSD DVD±Rs. Yes, the laser is running at a higher 'Power Level', but only for 1/4 or 1/8 the amount of time.

I see, but don't understand, the 'Power Hit' for burning 16X DVD±Rs on an 8X burner. But, I've only burned ~200 DVD±Rs in all the years (4?) I've owned a DVDR (now I have 4) so I don't see that as a deterrent for me.

P.S. to DVDR Newbies for OPTIMUM performance / longevity:
  1. Buy quality 8X DVD±R blanks.
  2. Always record to the HDD first.
  3. Always HSD to the DVD±R.
  4. Live long and prosper.

I now have eleven HDD/DVD recorders, six Magnavox, three Panasonic and two Philips models.

I thought my speculation might lead to a more detailed discussion of laser use accumulation comparing direct to disc recording and high-speed dubbing.

I must admit that I've not been able to pin down the actual laser use "wear and tear" due to direct to disc recording.

In an earlier post I characterized my understanding of high-speed dubbing as alternating between "spooling" followed by "writing in bursts."

IIRC, the direct to disc mistake I made had a blank DVD in the tray with the Magnavox 2160 left in the DVD mode where the recording mode was set to LP, the three hour per DVD "speed." I thought that the recorder was in the HDD mode so I pressed "record" for an open-ended recording. Then the Magnavox was left unattended for several hours. When I returned I found that the recording had stopped because the DVD was full.

I'm wondering how actual laser use time would compare between three hours of direct to disc color recording at the LP recording mode and fifteen minutes of high speed dubbing of three hours the same color content at the LP recording mode using 8x TY Premium Line DVD-R discs?

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post #10 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigaDo View Post

I'm wondering how actual laser use time would compare between three hours of direct to disc color recording at the LP recording mode and fifteen minutes of high speed dubbing of three hours the same color content at the LP recording mode using 8x TY Premium Line DVD-R discs?

I believe that might be impossible to ascertain since there is NO explanation anywhere that I could find of how our DVDR HSD works. Since it takes less time, it must be doing something "special" to speed the process, and one of those "special" things could be more laser power to dump data faster on the DVD (in bigger chunks)? If so, you'd have to know the % increase in laser power reqd, etc.?

I once did a test to see if I could find the % between DVD-RD and DVD-WR and posted it, but have since deleted it since it was just one test and I can't remember if it was a dub or record. I do sort-of remember the ratio was ~80-20% but not which ones with which numbers (even the % may be wrong)???

I did find out that DVD-RD starts as soon as a disc is Loaded, and any actual RD/WR activity don't appear in the SKIP #'s immediately after (prob. cuz it's inrementing seconds until it changes a minute or hour number???).
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post #11 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 12:51 PM
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jeeckard2, if the signal from your ComCast DVR was protected the usual response from a DVD recorder would be to either refuse to engage record mode at all, or start recording and then two to five seconds later stop and throw up a "Cannot Record This Program" alert on screen. If your DVDs are failing near the end of the recording, you may be dealing with other issues.

For one thing, given ComCast's increasingly consumer-hostile policies, it would not surprise me to learn they might not use a protection signal thru an entire program, but wait until it nears the end and then send a burst of protection over the wire. Recorders do vary in how they handle a protection signal thrown at them during a recording that has been successfully progressing for some time prior: usually they just stop recording, sometimes they pause themselves and will resume once the protection burst passes, sometimes they blow the disc (your case) and sometimes they just ignore the latecoming protection glitch. No way of knowing predictably, especially with crazy ComCast.

Or, you might simply be having media problems. The Magnavox is rather more accommodating to various disc types than older recorders, but it is still a recorder and works better if you use recorder-optimized media (8x-speed +R or -R sold by online media dealers). The 16x-speed media on sale in superstores is almost entirely formulated for ultra-high-speed PC burners, not our slower recorders, and especially not recorders running in very slow real-time direct-to-disc recording mode. Such discs often fail soon into the recording, or near the end. If you are currently using any 16x blank discs other than Verbatim AZO, this could be your problem.

With any DVD/HDD recorder, you'll up your odds of a successful disc burn if you avoid direct-to-dvd mode: instead, record to the HDD first, then have the recorder do a high-speed dub from HDD to DVD. This is debated endlessly by those new to DVD recorders, because it doesn't sound logical and the extra time for the additional burning step is annoying. Unfortunately, DVD recorders are not straight-up replacements for VCRs: they are dedicated little PCs that do nothing but make DVDs. The technology is tied to whatever is going on in the much larger PC world: the PC is the dog that wags the DVD recorder tail. Going back many years already, the process for burning DVD on PC standardized on recording the video to HDD then burning the DVD copy at super high speed (16x-22x with current burners).

As consumers demanded ever-cheaper prices for blank DVDs, the ability to reliably burn at the very slow real-time (1x) speed was sacrificed. The plain truth is DVD recorders are a minute part of the market demand for blank DVDs: its almost all PC users. So the blank media put on sale every weekend in retail stores is optimized for PC use. It will work in a DVD recorder surprisingly well, except of course those times when you absolutely need it to work- then it doesn't. Those are the times you'll wish you'd recorded to the HDD first instead of direct to DVD. Remember, once the recording is on HDD, it only takes another 15mins to burn a DVD at the higher speed DVD prefers to be burned at. If for any reason the disc fails to burn, you still have the HDD recording, and can do a backup burn in just another 15 mins, or can wait until you have a chance to buy more recorder-friendly blanks. If you go direct to DVD, and the disc croaks, you have to do the entire recording over again in real time (which may not be possible for "live" off-air or cable shows).

Regarding the laser wear-and-tear questions, using the high-speed-dub option puts less wear on the laser, primarily because it is running for a shorter period of time (18mins vs 120 mins for a two-hour dvd). Leaving out the considerations of extra laser power used for different disc types, and limiting the question to time-on-vs-wear, high speed dub puts less wear on the entire burner system. High speed doesn't necessarily use more laser power, it just speeds up the whole process: the disc spins faster, so the laser pulses faster, but it pulses at whatever normal power level is needed for the disc. It can do this only if burning a pre-existing video file from HDD: in real-time direct-DVD mode the disc spins slowly and the laser must stay on correspondingly longer to burn the same pits in the dye layer. The spindle motor is also running longer.

The mysterious flip side to all of this is that a burner that is never used will fail in about the same amount of time as a burner that is normally used: we've had quite a number of failure reports from people who stockpiled their favorite recorders or burners brand new in box when they were discontinued a few years ago, only to have them tank shortly after they started using them. It would seem real-time burning is still better than not using the burner at all, because at least you get some DVDs from the thing before it fails.
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post #12 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

High speed doesn't necessarily use more laser power, it just speeds up the whole process: the disc spins faster, so the laser pulses faster, but it pulses at whatever normal power level is needed for the disc.

Holy, moly, I've been searching for a year or two for any ref./expert explanation of HSD and all this time it's just a faster disc spin speed!!!?

Please give me a link to the ref./expert article that explains it all!?
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post #13 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 01:52 PM
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^^^
Try reading here. The speed of the drive is always changing since the media is written with constant linear velocity (CLV). It spins faster when the laser is near the hub and much slower when it is out at the rim. The drive spins the disk at a speed appropriate to how fast you are writing the data (i.e. 2X vs 8X). The faster it spins the more laser power is required to write because the spot time is decreased. The practical limit is 10,000rpm. Above that speed the disks can shatter.

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post #14 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

^^^
Try reading here. The speed of the drive is always changing since the media is written with constant linear velocity (CLV). It spins faster when the laser is near the hub and much slower when it is out at the rim. The drive spins the disk at a speed appropriate to how fast you are writing the data (i.e. 2X vs 8X). The faster it spins the more laser power is required to write because the spot time is decreased. The practical limit is 10,000rpm. Above that speed the disks can shatter.

Nope. I've read that before and it doesn't talk about high-speed dubbing in our consumer DVDRs (vs real-time recording), just the normal CLV/ZCLV, MB/s "speed" rates (data write rates), etc. stuff for normal recording, and lots about CD drives. It does mention higher laser power for the higher "speed" ratings (MB/s rates).

Still looking and hoping.
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post #15 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Nope. I've read that before and it doesn't talk about high-speed dubbing in our consumer DVDRs (vs real-time recording), just the normal CLV/ZCLV, MB/s "speed" rates (data write rates), etc. stuff for normal recording, and lots about CD drives. It does mention higher laser power for the higher "speed" ratings (MB/s rates).

Still looking and hoping.

Why would you expect a DVD Recorder to act any differently than any other disk burner? The burn rate is controlled by the speed of the disk turning in the spindle. Doesn't matter if it is high-speed dub at 8X or real-time dub at 1X. That's the way optical disk burners work -- always have.

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post #16 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Why would you expect a DVD Recorder to act any differently than any other disk burner? The burn rate is controlled by the speed of the disk turning in the spindle. Doesn't matter if it is high-speed dub at 8X or real-time dub at 1X. That's the way optical disk burners work -- always have.

Still looking for a definitive source that starts something like, "High speed dubbing in consumer recorders is done by ... " or "... is a process that ...". Capiche?

And why are you answering for CitiBear?
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post #17 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Holy, moly, I've been searching for a year or two for any ref./expert explanation of HSD and all this time it's just a faster disc spin speed!!!?

Please give me a link to the ref./expert article that explains it all!?

My information comes from the wayback machine, when many of us were having CD-R issues before DVD-R was ever available. There were many articles similar to what you and Kelson have referenced regarding speed vs laser power vs wear. I simplified what I said above for the purposes of discussing our mundane DVD/HDD recorders, which are hardly state of the art speed-demons (they top out at a true physical write speed of 7x). Using super fast high-performance PC burners with 16x media, Kelson is of course right: the laser power is notched up to be sure the pits are etched during the shorter contact interval.

When I said in my post above "high speed doesn't necessarily use more laser power, it just speeds up the whole process: the disc spins faster, so the laser pulses faster, but it pulses at whatever normal power level is needed for the disc" I was speaking of our recorders in practical usage. With the proper easy-burn 8x media running at a leisurely 6x-7x, the laser power in HSD mode is not jacked up inordinately compared to 1x direct-dvd mode, so there is little additional wear involved. 16x is programmed to tell the burner it is 16x, most burners will react accordingly by jacking up laser power considerably to meet the demand of true 16x burning. Since none of our recorders can actually burn at 16x, using the 16x media places unnecessary stress on the laser.

I think this last is less of a problem with the Magnavox than older recorders. The Magnavox uses a custom modern burner which Funai may have programmed to not be stupid about 16x media (it probably knows not to jack its laser power thru the roof). Older recorders from Pioneer, Sony, etc, used ordinary generic PC burners with an extra DRM chip. Those classic recorder motherboards were locked at the same 6x-7x top speed as our Magnavox, but since the burners themselves were generic faster PC-based units they would send laser power to the max upon detection of 16x media. Thats why a lot of these older machines promptly died when the supply of convenient 8x media dried up, and 16x media got weirder a few years ago.
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post #18 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 05:06 PM
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Hmmm, I was hoping you had some expert ref. in the literature that started with "The high speed dubbing process in consumer-level DVD recorders does X, Y and Z."

I guess I'll keep looking but fruitless for last 2 years or so... lots of paid services marketing HSD but not tech. articles at all that say anything like what I'm looking for.

The std optical disc/burning refs. don't hack it.

In fact, most people here think DVD burning "speeds" are how fast the disc turns, not the data write rate in MB/sec as noted here.
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post #19 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 06:24 PM
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No one has convinced me that burning good quality 16x discs (Verb AZO or TY) at 6x speed takes more laser power than burning good quality 8x discs (Verb AZO or TY) IF BURNING AT 6X SPEED. All my evidence searching this subject actually points the other way making me believe that laser power is equal or very close to equal whether burning good quality 8x media or 16x media in stand-alone 6x DVD recorders.

When questioned, many regular members here at this forum admitted to burning thousands of bad quality 16x discs and I haven't seen any evidence of any premature laser failure even with members using crap 16x media - as in this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=laser+power

I've been searching for max laser power consumption as per the laser diode manufacture claims and I've found two sources - Mitsubishi and Sony. Both manufactures make or at one time made laser diodes and as far as I know both manufactures also make or at one time made DVD-+R/RW dye with Sony manufacturing under the Sony brand and Mitsubishi manufacturing the AZO dye for Verbatim.

Mitsubishi claims
Required laser power for 1x DVD±RW: 50mW
Required laser power for 2x DVD±RW: 70mW
Required laser power for 4x DVD±RW: 100mW
Required laser power for 8x DVD±RW: 140mW
Required laser power for 12x DVD±RW: 200mW
Required laser power for 16x DVD±RW: 250mW

Sony claims
Required laser power for 4x DVD±RW: 100mW
Required laser power for 8x DVD±RW: 140mW
Required laser power for 12x DVD±RW: 200mW
Required laser power for 16x DVD±RW: 250mW

Both manufactures claim that the 250mW power consumption for 16x burning is a maximum required for low quality discs. They claim that burning good quality discs at 16x only requires 200mW. These numbers are for pulsed power, not CW (Continues Wave) power.

If my stand-alone recorder is burning either disc (TY 8x DVD-R) or (Verbatim 16x DVD-R) at a 6x HSD speed, as far as I believe my laser diode is using equal power consumption burning the 16x disc or 8x disc at 6x speed. Power consumption at around 125mW for both burns at 6x HSD speed.

Below is a quote from Mitsubishi regarding their verbatim 16x dye and backward compatibility with slower, less powerful recorders, all the way to x1 speed. It should be noted that stand-alone recorders do not have 250mW lasers, they are much less powerful- therefore at 6x speed they are using around 120mW whether burning a 16x disc or a 8x disc.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone - just giving a point of view, as I believe it.


Quote:


The key component in achieving 16X speed DVD+R media that delivers optimum performance, superior quality and the broadest compatibility is the proprietary Advanced AZO recording layer technology developed by Verbatim's parent company, Mitsubishi Kagaku Media (MKM). By using the proven dye technology incorporated in its 8X DVD+R media as the platform for the new, more sensitive Advanced AZO technology, MKM engineers not only achieved 16X +R write speed, they ensured that the new media will maintain backward compatibility with existing DVD recorders and 1-8X DVD+R burners.

The patented AZO dye features excellent thermal and optical properties for a wider power margin and increased sensitivity to laser light for high-speed recording. Reliability is enhanced by controlling the heat interference between recording marks, which reduces degradation of the recording marks. This minimizes the jitter and enables superior recording characteristics across the entire range of available recording speeds, from 1X through 16X

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post #20 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 07:11 PM
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This post is a direct response to an above post now deleted by wajo

But the speed in no way increases using 16x discs over using 8x speed discs in 6x recorders. The standalones are not limited in achieving higher speeds due to limited RPM rotation. They are limited due to not having enough laser power to burn anything over 6x speed except maybe slight peaks that go over.

Therefore burning a 8x disc or a 16x takes very similar if not exact same laser power IF BURNED AT 6x speeds. There is no way my stand alone can achieve 250mW therefore it must be using less laser power while burning at a lower burn speed to stay compatible with burning 16x discs – there is no other logical explanation.
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post #21 of 45 Old 02-07-2012, 09:30 PM
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And why are you answering for CitiBear?

You do remember this is an open forum, right?

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #22 of 45 Old 02-08-2012, 10:03 AM
 
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isn't that illegal?
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post #23 of 45 Old 02-08-2012, 03:33 PM
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This post is a direct response to an above post now deleted by wajo


Obviously you’re not going to convince me with one piece of outdated marketing literature put out by Taijo Yuden. It is reasonable to conclude that TY made a mistake, (possibly in translation) or due to a misprint in the very line and the only line you use to try and convince us. Notice that in the screen grab that you use to convince us of laser power usage – the discs are all tested at their rated x-speed, that is all except the 16x disc which suposly is tested at 8x speed. Why would that be? The better question is why do you keep using that outdated TY literature and why don’t you use the 2012 literature that has the mistake taken out?

The new literature clearly states and I quote

“Recording power @ 16x = -50mW”

Not like in the outdated misprint that you choose to use.

“(16x) Recording power @ 8x speed = 50mW”

It can’t be that recording a 16x disc at 8x speed takes the same power as recording a 16x disc at 16x speed. Do a search on the net and you will get millions of hits claiming that increasing the burn speed increases laser power. You will get 0 hits claiming that increasing the burn speed does not increase laser power. So your outdated literature is incorrect, should be pulled and replaced with the 2012 literature.

I am enclosing the 2012 TY PDF. A direct link was sent to me by someone who wants to stay out of this debate, the link is included at the bottom of this post. Feel free to use this more current TY literature.

All that said I’m still not sure how TY measures power-levels. Because every link I checked so far states the power levels I mentioned in my previous post (250mW @16x). Also, I looked at many, many links from reputable sites and so far not one, not one mentions higher laser usage burning 16x media at 6x as opposed to burning 8x media at 6x. Yet each and very one states that increasing burning speed increases laser power.

I have not come to a conclusion. If anyone brings fourth conclusive evidence I will seriously consider it. But so far all I hear is hear-say and one outdated piece of TY marketing literature with the link disappearing and with updated literature “correcting” the one misleading sentence.

Step back in time when 16x media was still in the planning stages.
See what is said about laser power.


http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/c...lsd1236vl.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/10827...x_in_2004.html
http://74.200.65.35/Sections/News/De...px?NewsId=7287
http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/in...e/mel0620e.pdf

EDIT
The TY PDF link was sent to me, here it is.

http://ds.yuden.co.jp/Detail/downloa.../media02_e.pdf

 

TY-DVD-2012.pdf 96.287109375k . file
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File Type: pdf TY-DVD-2012.pdf (96.3 KB, 0 views)
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post #24 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 12:35 PM
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OK, wajo and SuperEye, I'll bite...

You seem to think because no one is getting into it with you about "reference" and "documentation" that we don't "get" what you're trying to say, investigate, or prove. That isn't the case, for me at least: I understand perfectly what you're getting at. I have worked in postproductiion, I know from "standards and specs." What you are refusing to grasp on your end is why some of the rest of us take our position on blank media as it relates to our DVD recorders.

Speaking only for myself, I don't give a rats ass about the supposed "documentation" and "mfr specs" you guys are so desperately looking for (or citing). I have no agenda or motivation to "convince" anybody of anything. By constantly insisting I "back up" what I say with mfr documentation, you're completely missing the point of why I say it: my posts are based on my actual experience nearly eight years using a wide variety of DVD recorders. I've been involved with professional duplication projects, I repair recorders and stereo gear for other people, I've burned thousands of personal and business discs on recorders, Apple Macs, and countless PC configurations. So I don't pull this stuff out of my ass, and I'm not the only one to see these patterns with blank media incompatibility. If someone asks for my opinion in a PM or a thread touches on the subject I will post my experience because that is what any forum is for- members to exchange their experiences to get a consensus of what is or isn't average behavior with various hardware, software and media. We aren't here to agree with each other 100%, we're here to get an idea of what everyone else is reporting.

Mfr recorder, burner or media specs mean absolutely nothing if they are in fact BS, inaccurate or their products do not behave as they state in real-world practical applications. In seven years working with a half-dozen brands of DVD and DVD/HDD recorder in my home and in business, I have seen an ever-increasing trend of 16x retail media killing the damn recorders prematurely or the machines repeatedly failing to finish burning or not recognizing the discs at all, while these problems almost never occur with 8x media. I am far from the only one reporting this phenomenon. And it isn't limited to recorders, it happens with PC burners as well (although to a much lesser degree given how often PC burners are replaced). Laptops and slot loaders are picky right from the factory and within weeks (not months, weeks) you learn they will really only work reliably with a couple specific media brands/types. Something as simple as white inkjet vs silver top of the same media formulation can be enough to make or break burn reliability. Yet, if you go by the specs, there should be absolutely no difference in functionality. Tell that to the uncooperative hardware, and see how far it gets you.

The media compatibility mess strikes hardest at DVD recorders, more often with DVD/HDD because they see much more use than the average DVD/VHS combo and they have the "high speed copy" mode to make things even more interesting. The huge array of retail 16x media made by CMC, Ritek, Moser-Baer and Daxxon OEMs went from occasional incompatibility to near-total incompatibility between 2006 and 2010. Verbatim (MCC) and Sony (Daxxon) held out the longest, but Sony finally caught up and Verbatim got really wacky and unpredictable with their 16x AZO after contracting with CMC to make it, then introduced a misleading "Life" series thats pure commodity CMC with no Verbatim input at all.

After I experienced a ridiculous number of failures across many pieces of hardware in late 2006 thru 2007, I began looking for clues here and at other boards around the world. (The most amusing threads were the ones where media mfr reps would jump in and try to help: they would start out really curious and wanting to find a solution, then inevitably stop participation with a tacit admission backwards compatibility corners had been cut in later 16x mfrg and there was nothing they could do other than regurgitate the mfr party line that "all our media meets standard specs." I really felt bad for one of the Verbatim guys in UK, he tried so hard and seemed so embarrassed to discover it "wasn't a bug, it was a feature.") The one constant that came up over and over was that switching to non-retail Verbatim 8x or TY 8x made the problems go away. I followed that advice, it worked for me nearly 100%, so that is what I report in my own posts.

Unfortunately, now even the 8x backwater has been contaminated: TY and JVC hopped into bed together, and the once-perfect TYG02 media started turning up with ever-increasing defects. Verbatim began restricting 8x SKUs and distribution, and have had some 8x QC issues of their own. Over the last year, incredibly, Verbatim and TY traded specialties: TY -R is now a crapshoot while their +R has recaptured the previous -R reputation, while Verbatim +R is trending down as they're now making really good 8x (and even 16x) -R after years of spotty -R QC. (Between 2006-2008 the flood of threads I skimmed where users traded horror and success stories of various Verbatim +-R lot numbers could fill a library).

Not everyone has these troubles: a substantial portion of the population using the same hardware never complains. From my own experience and consensus here on AVS, I am perfectly willing to concede that Funai, for example, did an exceptional job designing a multi-compatible burner for its Magnavox DVD/HDD recorders. It appears to be bulletproof, durable, able to burn anything you throw at it (the only failure reports I've seen have been from new owners, where it would make sense as the typical small percentage of initially defective units). It is not possible to determine for certain whether this is due to careful calibration of the laser for more modern media, or because Funai is using a much stronger than usual laser diode (perhaps both). Wonderful as the Magnavox is, media experience with it cannot be extrapolated as a reference for other people using other gear- the Magnavox is a unique piece of hardware.

The success of SuperEye with hundreds of assorted 16x retail discs in his Sony RDR-HX780 is proof that even with known-sensitive products, some people are blessed with easy-going units despite many others having to work around compatibility issues. The Sony 780 is essentially the same as a Pioneer DVR640 (and later 550 and 560 series), they rolled off the same assembly line. A few others here have reported similar success as SuperEye using the Pioneer 640 version long-term with random 16x media. All Pioneers from 2006-2008 and Sonys from the same period use the same Sony burner. Most of us have had major issues with this burner croaking after roughly 300 16x discs: it no longer burns 16x to completion in HSD mode, but will continue to work normally if loaded with 8x media.

My initial experience of Pioneers was with earlier models, where if the burner tanked I just replaced it with another similar Pioneer PC burner. I had a little cottage industry of doing this for other owners as well. Eventully I picked up a 640, and when it died after a few hundred discs found I couldn't repair it, because the new Sony burner was not entirely generic and had mounting slots where it attached directly to the motherboard. I brought it to a friend at a Pioneer service center, who took one look at it and told me it had been blown by use of newer 16x media. He was the one who tipped me off that newer versions of 16x discs had dropped any pretense of backward compatibility in order to make them more suited to ultra high speed PC burners, which were then topping out around 22x. Optimizing for higher speed means "optimized for blast furnace laser power levels," something neither Pioneer nor Sony (or any other brand) had considered in the design of their "slow" HSD recorder burners. Hence the trouble a lot of people run into.

If I post my experience, it doesn't mean I'm denying someone elses' that may be quite different. If you never, ever have a problem swapping between Memorex, TDK, Staples and Maxell 16x bargain media in your recorder, I think thats wonderful for you: you never have to worry about running low on a specific media. Please extend the courtesy in the reverse direction: I'm not hallucinating my media problems- they exist, and they're very inconvenient. If I post general advice to the effect 8x is preferable in recorders, thats because I have never had (and never heard of) 8x bothering a post-2003 dvd recorder, while I have had (and seen reported) countless experiences of 16x failing or wearing down a recorder. Perversely, the more deluxe the recorder the more picky it is about media: tell a Toshiba XS or Sony HX900 owner they should try Memorex, you better duck before they punch you.

Sorry, wajo and SuperEye and whoever else wants "documentation" from those of us who base our posts on day-to-day experience. We don't have it, we never will. If you are currently enjoying the ability to use any media you want to in any device you own, more "power" to you. The rest of us anxiously await the day 8x media is no longer available. You'd better be anxious, too: some of us may break down your doors to grab your wunderkind burn-anything recorders.

I'm especially baffled by wajo's relentless quest for technical mfr documentation of a media problem he doesn't have himself: he only uses the Magnavox, only posts about the Magnavox, and would probably take his own life before agreeing to use anything else. The Magnavox will burn anything you throw at it, for years on end, so I don't see why wajo is even interested in this debate. The Magnavox itself will very likely be discontinued by spring, after that the only people who use it will be existing owners and those purchasing them secondhand. None of these people should experience media problems either. I'm willing to accept media is a moot point for you, please accept that it is not for a large swath of the rest of us on this forum. My Samsung and Lenovo laptops, the two dozen Mac Minis I administer at my office, and my rack of Pioneer DVD/HDD recorders thank you. (My Magnavox H2160 and MDR513 say "hi, and many thanks for the 727 firmware update.")
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post #25 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 12:44 PM
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You really don't understand the purpose of my Sticky thread, do you?
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post #26 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 12:56 PM
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Let me throw this out there: is it, or is it not true that the +VR standard, which was developed in part by Philips, and is used exclusively in the Philips/Mag/Funai recorders would conceivable be more compatible with +R media, for which its spec was also developed partially by Philips?
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post #27 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

You really don't understand the purpose of my Sticky thread, do you?

I understand it very well and respect what you've done with it very much. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it becoming a vortex that sucks every conceivable recording topic into its stifling maw. I fear your new sticky re "Options For Recording After DVDRs Are Gone" will be more of the same: its timing is a little odd, given DVDRs have been "gone" in USA since 2007 unless you knew of (and liked) the Philips/Magnavox. The only thing thats changed since 2007 is the pending loss of the Magnavox. The only reason there is even a "demand" for DVDR is that the Magnavox soldiers on as a cheap alternative to TiVO or cable PVRs in some peoples minds, along with the few of us who appreciate it for what it is.

Everyone else seriously interested in video recording alternatives moved on to one of the many HDTV recording thread topics by 2008 (no one but a few of us collector diehards cares about SD recording anymore). Other than the TiVO, which does not interest you (or most other Magnavox enthusiasts), there are no unified consumer-friendly generic HDTV recording "alternatives to DVDR." There are too many choices and far too many shifting variables to confine this uncertain future to a single sticky thread. The "alternatives to DVDR" largely involve custom-install PC additions, with member experiences so diverse as to make DVDR blank media disagreements seem positively quaint. You might have served the Magnavox culture better by re-titling your original sticky "Magnavox And Alternatives," keeping everyone in the same boat on the same page discussing whatever comes along that could replace the "Magnavox Experience" of a dirt-cheap, WalMart-return-policy-backed, unified standalone recorder.
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post #28 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

I understand it very well...

Apparently not otherwise you wouldn't question WHY I'm so interested in ref. to expert literature, and why I link so often to others' posts..
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post #29 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 03:20 PM
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I have a pretty good feeling it's not welcome by at least some, but I'm gonna throw in my .02 about the "Alternatives" sticky, anyway.

I don't think the overall concept is bad, as far as it being there for the benefit of the tyros who want to learn of the possible alternatives - but once individual people get to a certain point of knowledge and usage themselves, they should be directed to the appropriate, already-established forums for whatever device or method they're using.

That's how things have always been done around the forum in general up 'till now, and it seems to have worked just fine.

In other words, keep the DVD Recorders forum about DVD recorders (and VCR's, of course). This is an SD sub-forum, too, remember.
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post #30 of 45 Old 02-09-2012, 04:17 PM
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Posting personal experiences is great and should be encouraged. Posting generic statements such as “all DVD recorders are stupidly programmed with the old outdated 8x burning instructions. When you load 16x, the burner goes nuts trying to figure out how to burn it….” Should be questioned without anyone getting upset when asked to back-up such statements. This reminds of a statement I’ve read on wikipedea regarding S-VHS-ET.

“””In attempts to record S-VHS content to a VHS tape, picture quality is somewhat better, however, after several months the quality drops dramatically to a point of severe graininess or video noise in dark areas in the images. This is due to the standard VHS tape's lack of coercivity that the S-VHS format requires, causing the stronger magnetization of the tape provided by a S-VHS deck's recording heads to not be fully retained by the magnetic oxide particles of the VHS tape over time, producing a weaker signal on playback.

Eventually, the recording becomes unwatchable (although it may be copied to another more suitable media while still in usable condition). The original tape itself can be reused for standard-format VHS format recordings without problems (as the oxide media itself remains physically undamaged).”””
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-VHS

I had to shake my head when I read the above. My own personal ET recordings made on my 3911 go back ten years and the recordings look like they’ve been recorded yesterday. If that’s not enough I have a friend that used to drill the hole in high grade VHS tapes and used his late 80’s JVC SVHS deck to record SVHS on VHS tape. I borrowed one if his late 80's tapes last month and that recording did not deteriorate any more than a normal VHS or normal SVHS recording. In fact it looked great, better than any normal VHS recording.
What I’m getting at is there’s paranoia all over the Internet. I wonder how many folks reading that nonsense got discouraged from recording in ET mode because of some unsubstantiated article?

Back in the 80s I remember hearing all kinds of unsubstantiated paranoia about videotapes. I see the same deal regarding DVDs. Do I believe that some discs act finicky with some recorders? Of course I do but telling me that my burner was not designed to take a good quality 16x disc and fallback to a slower speed is not true. Claiming that my newest batch of Verbatim 16x AZO discs no longer have a fallback strategy written to disc is very misleading to others. Not only is the fallback strategy documented on the manufacture’s site but also if anyone takes a few minutes to pop a disc in their PC and use a program to check for this – the program will clearly report back the fallback speeds.

Let me be perfectly clear here. I do not doubt any of members’ personal experiences. BUT. I do not fall for some of the statements made regarding my gear. Whether stating that all newer JVC decks fall apart after a few months, not true in my experience. Stating that my decks use 19um heads for SP recording – not true. Stating that my Sony DVD recorder does not have a strategy to fallback on 16x media and the laser will burn-out after 200 to 300 discs – not true in my experience.

Getting back to laser-power.
Do I believe that in theory using 8x media may be more compatible then using 16x media in 6x stand-alone burners? Yes I do. Do I believe that some folks need to switch? Yes. But this argument is no different than the dash-R, plus-R argument. In theory and on paper plus-R is designed better and folks should use it but I’ve always used dash-R and am getting good results. It would be pointless for people telling me to switch to plus-r.

Is it possible that burning a 16x disc at 6x speed takes a little more laser power than burning a 8x disc at 6x speed? Sure it might take a little more power since the 16x is primary designed for a higher speed with a secondary fall-back option. But I think that the screen-grab wajo is using to try and convince people is very misleading and the right thing to do would be to pull it and quit using it. To me it seems very clear from the new 2012 TY literature that the higher power is for burning a 16x disc at 16x speed, not burning a 16x disc at 8x speed. So maybe CitiBear does not give a rats ass about obtaining the correct spec, that’s certainly the gentleman’s right BUT I and perhaps many others certainly would like a reference to the correct spec.

I’m the type of guy that likes to get to the bottom of things and if I post something that is unknowingly misleading and I have in the past – the right thing to do is correct my mistake once I find out the correct answer. Anything else would be to knowingly mislead folks and that’s something I can’t do.

In closing I just want to say that I’m aware of my personality and with my bad grammar I can get a little annoying, I’m sorry about that. I highly respect the views and opinions of the folks here. In fact last night falling asleep I was thinking about my posts and hoping I didn’t piss off anyone too much. But it is important that we don’t mistakenly mislead folks and the right thing to do is find out the real answers to things- like the power it takes burning a 16x TY disc at 8x speed. It can’t take the same power as burning it at 16x – claiming it does without really knowing is not doing anyone any good.
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