Optical discs and magnets - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Iv'e never seen this question asked before,so i thought id'e ask it now.
Can a disc with something recorded on it be damaged by placing it tooo close to powerful magnets such as the magnets in audio speakers or electro-magnetic fields?? Reason i ask is cuz iv'e noticed some of my TY disks going bad(skipping,sticking on one spot and refusing to play any further) after about a year and a half,and am wondering if my practice of placing discs(in their cover) on top of my center speaker for up to 2hrs.before i actually plan on watching them 'could' be the culprit??
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post #2 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 10:48 AM
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nope.
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post #3 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 10:52 AM
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I would say it's unlikely, but I can't in good conscience say it's impossible. Now if they were close to a microwave source, that's a different story.

Luke

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post #4 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Then maybe i should be suspecting either 1.flaws in the disc manufacture,or 2.marginal burns by my Maggie 2160A,or 515???
I visually inspect the discs for obvious signs of dirt or damage,but the discs look pristine.I also clean them,just to make sure there is no dirt,but the problems remain even after cleaning.
I might also add that all of the discs that have gone bad have been recorded on either my Maggie 2160A or my 515,but none of the discs burned on my Philips 3576 have gone bad,even after 4-5 yrs.
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post #5 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser View Post

Then maybe i should be suspecting either 1.flaws in the disc manufacture,or 2.marginal burns by my Maggie 2160A,or 515???
I visually inspect the discs for obvious signs of dirt or damage,but the discs look pristine.I also clean them,just to make sure there is no dirt,but the problems remain even after cleaning.

How warm is it where you set them?

Even the heat of a thermal printer can ruin a disc that's already got data on it. My thermal printer says to only use it on blank discs and THEN record data to them.
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post #6 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser View Post

and am wondering if my practice of placing discs(in their cover) on top of my center speaker for up to 2hrs.before i actually plan on watching them 'could' be the culprit??

Shouldn't be. I've had DVDs (both pressed and burned) sitting on my subwoofer for months at a time. They still played fine.

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post #7 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

How warm is it where you set them?

Oh it's not hot at all,room temp.anywhere from 72-85 degrees, depending on the day,(i live in S.Fla.and days do tend to be quite warm,today the temp. is about 85 degrees,but i have the AC running) and not near any heat source.
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post #8 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser View Post

...Can a disc with something recorded on it be damaged by placing it tooo close to powerful magnets such as the magnets in audio speakers or electro-magnetic fields??...

I can see Reel-to-Reel, 8-Track, Cassette, VHS, etc... MAGNETIC tapes being affected by a powerful magnet (aka BULK ERASER). But, AFAIK, CDs and DVDs store data like the Thermal Tapes I get attached to my 'Custom Order' burgers at MacDonalds. If I re-heat a Double Cheeseburger in the microwave with the 'No Pickles, No Mustard' tape still attached, it gradually blackens as the burger heats up. Same deal with a CD and/or DVD - *MAYBE* intense heat can burn pits where there weren't pits before, but, we're talking TIGHT SPACING between 'Burnt Pits' and 'Unburnt Pits'. i.e. *MAYBE* a 500 Watt heat lamp at ½" spacing MAY take out a LARGE CIRCLE of data, but a magnet - I don't think so...

So, yes, my FINAL ANSWER is: NO.

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post #9 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 05:30 PM
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How about if you leave then in the sun ?

Eldon Tyrell:
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burns half as long. And you have burned
so very very brightly, Roy."
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post #10 of 43 Old 02-24-2012, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrence99 View Post

How about if you leave then in the sun ?

Please try it and report back with your results.

You could also 'Experiment' with putting them in your oven and incrementally increasing the temperature.

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post #11 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I would say it's unlikely, but I can't in good conscience say it's impossible. Now if they were close to a microwave source, that's a different story.

Thanks for your reply Luke,i didn't really think that there was much of a possibility that magnets could pose a risk,but since i didn't know 'for sure',i had to ask the question no matter how far out in left field the question may be. I'm just trying to figure out why,after 5-6 yrs.of having almost no failures,i'm now having failure after failure of discs(T-Y),most of them being no more than a year and a half old,some of them even less than a year old,while my older discs,some of them up to 6yrs.old are still playing just fine. Go figure!
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post #12 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser View Post

I'm just trying to figure out why,after 5-6 yrs.of having almost no failures,i'm now having failure after failure of discs(T-Y),most of them being no more than a year and a half old,some of them even less than a year old,while my older discs,some of them up to 6yrs.old are still playing just fine.

Isn't that about the same time JVC took over TY?

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post #13 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

Isn't that about the same time JVC took over TY?

Oct 2009... TY bought JVC's media name and retailing resources and began making their discs under both the TY and JVC names.
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post #14 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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**@CTL** During the days of VHS tape and VCR's,it was fairly well known that you shouldn't place a cassette near a magnet or strong magnetic field.That habit became so ingrained in me that it became second nature.When i jumped from VCR's>DVDR's in '06 the habit carried over to disc.Sometime back???(can't remember how long,a yr.maybe) i finally dropped the old habit cuz i 'knew' that magnets "can't" affect optical discs.That's when i began placing discs on the "center channel"speaker with it's array of smallish magnets.Now i'm having disc failures so bad that iv'e had to create a 'Re-record Title' list so i can re-record all the movies that i have lost due to disc failure.The co-incidence of disc failure and my habit of placing discs over some magnets was to great for me not to notice,and i began to wonder if there could be some relationship.Sorry if my question bothers you.
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post #15 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 08:23 PM
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Either because it's scratched.

Or

Cheapy Chinese discs with chemical formulation that decays, in your case apparently quickly, over time.

Heat and direct sunlight affect recordables, not magnetic.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #16 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 09:18 PM
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In my opinion one of the biggest killers of data on CD/DVD discs is excessive weight on top of discs. I'm not saying this is your case greaser but may I ask how you store your discs?

In my opinion even discs that had excessive weight on top of them prior to burning (excessive weight at the vendor) and seem to burn OK have a better chance of loosing data in the long term. Think about it, tiny little pits that have dye in them sandwiched between a couple of fragile layers of thin plastic. Not only has the dye have to remain the correct colour shade but also the laser has to track the little pits very accurately while spinning at high RPM. Not much room for error.

The average human hair is around 100 microns. The track pitch on a 4.7 GB disc is 0.74 microns. Not much room for error with DVD-R tracking.

My rules:
1) No weight on top of discs.
2) No direct sunlight on discs.
3) Room temperature only.
4) Handle discs only by outer edges.
5) No stickers or ink on discs.
6) When not in use store in clam shells.
- That kind of stuff.

Would I trust my DVD player to accurately track 0.74 micron pits while spinning at a very high rate of speed? Discs that had a huge amount of weight on them?

Quote:


http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa13.htm

The recording side of a DVD-R and DVD+R disc is a sandwich of a number of layers. First comes a polycarbonate plastic substrate containing a shallow spiral groove extending from the inside to the outside diameter of the disc. A DVD-R disc additionally includes pits and lands on the areas between the coils of the groove (land pre-pits). Added to this substrate is an organic dye recording layer (azo, cyanine, dipyrromethene or others) followed by a metal reflective layer (silver, silver alloy, gold). The dummy side of a single-sided disc consists of an additional flat polycarbonate plastic substrate (sometimes with an additional metal layer to obscure the bonding layer from view for aesthetic purposes). An adhesive then bonds two recording sides (for a double-sided) or a recording and dummy side (for a single-sided) together into the final disc. Some single-sided discs are also topped on the dummy side with decorations or additional layers that provide surfaces suitable for labeling by inkjet, thermal transfer or re-transfer printers.

The first step in manufacturing a DVD-R or DVD+R disc is to fabricate the polycarbonate plastic substrates (incorporating the spiral groove and land pre-pits) using an injection molding process. The dye is then applied using spin coating and the metal layers by means of DC sputtering. After both sides of the disc are completed they are bonded together using a hot melt, UV cationic or free radical process. Additional decoration or printable layers are typically applied using screen printing methods. A DVD-R (General) disc undergoes a further manufacturing step in which a specialized computer DVD recorder is used to prewrite information in the Control Data Zone of its Lead-in Area to inhibit direct copying of prerecorded DVD-Video discs encrypted with the Content Scrambling System (CSS). Apart from this, and some minor differences in the configuration of the molding stamper used to create the substrates, the process for manufacturing DVD-R and DVD+R discs is virtually identical.

Again, not saying this is greaser's problem. Maybe TY discs have gone down to landfill quality in the last couple years? If so I'm glad I'm still using verb AZOs.

I'm just bringing attention to how sensitive discs are and should be treated with great care.
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post #17 of 43 Old 02-25-2012, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow Super Eye,your post is a little too much for me to wrap my head around right now!!,but of your 6 rules,the only 2 i don't follow; #5 cuz i use Sharpies for my titles,as for #6,well each disc is stored in it's individual case,or in one of the wallets i bought from SMS,stored vertically,no direct sunlight or excessive heat(always run AC on warmer days),and no excessive weight.Always handle discs by the rim(same as handling a valuable coin).
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post #18 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 12:56 PM
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Somewhere I read, and it made sense to me, that a major factor in disc failure is the bending that sometimes occurs when removing the disc from the case. This stresses the dye layer. In my own experience, I know some cases release easily, and the disc doesn't get bent. With others, the disc doesn't release easily, and one must pull on it, to get it loose form the case. This generally causes some major flex. I always do my best to minimize it.
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post #19 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 01:32 PM
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Yeah, I always cringe when I feel any resistance when taking a disc out of its case. I push down the center mechanism with one finger, while gently twisting the disc until it loosens.
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post #20 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence99 View Post

How about if you leave then in the sun ?

Even if it didn't damage the dye layer, the disc itself is plastic and would melt if it got hot enough. But then the same could happen to just about any media. Vinyl, optical discs, cassettes, wax cylinders.

Edison would roll over in his grave.

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post #21 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Yeah, I always cringe when I feel any resistance when taking a disc out of its case. I push down the center mechanism with one finger, while gently twisting the disc until it loosens.

I read somewhere they're looking to make DVDs, et al, even thinner. Because apparently we weren't bending them enough as is.

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post #22 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Somewhere I read, and it made sense to me, that a major factor in disc failure is the bending that sometimes occurs when removing the disc from the case. This stresses the dye layer. In my own experience, I know some cases release easily, and the disc doesn't get bent. With others, the disc doesn't release easily, and one must pull on it, to get it loose form the case. This generally causes some major flex. I always do my best to minimize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Yeah, I always cringe when I feel any resistance when taking a disc out of its case. I push down the center mechanism with one finger, while gently twisting the disc until it loosens.

Yeah, good point. Seems that many if not most of my cases that came with commercial pre-recorded discs have a mechanism that makes it harder to take out / put back in the discs. Clam shell cases that I bought for my homemade discs aren't too bad as long as one is very careful taking out / putting back in discs. I have to say that sometimes I also cringe if I feel too much resistance. Usually If I push down hard enough on the center mechanism the disc pops out without resistance - usually, not always.

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I read somewhere they're looking to make DVDs, et al, even thinner. Because apparently we weren't bending them enough as is.

Great. Just what we need.
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post #23 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Somewhere I read, and it made sense to me, that a major factor in disc failure is the bending that sometimes occurs when removing the disc from the case. This stresses the dye layer. In my own experience, I know some cases release easily, and the disc doesn't get bent. With others, the disc doesn't release easily, and one must pull on it, to get it loose form the case. This generally causes some major flex. I always do my best to minimize it.

Hi kjbawc, it's not from bending discs cuz i'm real careful 'bout that,and if the failures were caused by bending,then i would been having failure problems all along,not an explosion of disc failures in just the past few months.
My best guess is that one or more of my orders for discs(T-Y 8X -r) contained a whole buncha flakey discs that fail over time(8mos.-2yrs.)and they've only recently begun to show themselves.Either that or disc manufacture quality has taken a hit.So far as i can recall,none of my Verbatim DLP discs has failed,only the T-Y's.My question about magnets affecting discs is a reaction to an unfortunate co-incidence that has clouded the waters and caused unnecessary confusion and embarrassment for me.
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post #24 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Somewhere I read, and it made sense to me, that a major factor in disc failure is the bending that sometimes occurs when removing the disc from the case. This stresses the dye layer.

What gets stressed is the outer edge bond that glues the two halves together. The top and bottom polycarbonate disks are sealed at the outer rim and the inner hub. The seal is hermetic. Any breach of that seal and air/moisture can get in. Air will oxidize the organic dye and moisture will corrode the aluminum reflective layer.

I once dropped a DVD-R disk from chest height and it hit a hard floor perfectly square on the edge. The two halves popped apart.

As far as heat goes, polycarbonate is amorphous like glass. It starts to soften and can warp around 150°C which is pretty hot -- much hotter than you can get by laying it out in the sun.

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post #25 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't know how honest the posters were,but i read that the hardest core test you can put a optical disc thru,is to place it, recording side up, in direct sunlight and leave it there. Various posters claimed to have tried this test with various brands of discs,many being destroyed in less than 1hr. The only brands i remember though are T-Y discs and MAM-A discs.The T-Y discs were reported to be destroyed after ~2hrs.The MAM-A discs were reportedly destroyed after ~6hrs. With a few supposedly still viable after up to 12hrs.But as i said,i can't verify the truth of the posts.
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post #26 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 07:47 PM
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I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to place optical discs into direct sunlight. With long-term exposure you risk the dye fading. Last summer I left some unlit taper candles by a closed window in my home on a hot day - when I got home the candles were bending. I sure wouldn't risk that kind of exposure to my archives on optical discs. Some here may argue that there is no evidence of discs going bad if exposed to direct sunlight - that's fine, my only argument back is my archives on optical disc playback just fine with my storage and handling methods.
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post #27 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post


As far as heat goes, polycarbonate is amorphous like glass. It starts to soften and can warp around 150°C which is pretty hot -- much hotter than you can get by laying it out in the sun.

I would have thought that they could begin to warp at a lower temp., and warping would be as fatal to a CD/DVD as to an LP. But, in the window of a car, all windows shut, on a sunny day, black paint job, black interior, I'm sure it could reach above 150 deg. Still, sunlight bleaching the dye layer would be my greatest fear.
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post #28 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

I would have thought that they could begin to warp at a lower temp., and warping would be as fatal to a CD/DVD as to an LP. But, in the window of a car, all windows shut, on a sunny day, black paint job, black interior, I'm sure it could reach above 150 deg. Still, sunlight bleaching the dye layer would be my greatest fear.

He said 150C...well over the boiling point of water. What kind of car do you own that gets that hot?
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post #29 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

He said 150C...well over the boiling point of water. What kind of car do you own that gets that hot?

Oops! I was talking 150 Fahrenheit. I've worked with polycarbonate sheeting, and acrylic. They might begin to melt, or take a permanent bend, at 150C, but I'm sure they will warp at a much lower temp. If I only had some coasters, I could experiment...
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post #30 of 43 Old 02-26-2012, 09:04 PM
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I have some coaster DVDs, but I don't keep my car in the hot sun. I'd put it in my window sill, but it doesn't see much sun.

I'm pretty sure CDs and DVDs warp in the sun. Cassettes definitely do (personal experience. )

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