The HDD is a temporary storage device? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 58 Old 03-03-2012, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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The Panasonic manuals say the following

The HDD is a temporary storage device

The HDD is not a everlasting storage device for recorded content.
Use the HDD as a temporary place for one off viewing, editing or coping. It is recomended to save the recorded content on a disc or to keep the original data or CDs that they were copied from.

What does this mean? Are they saying something will happen if you use the HDD as storage to watch your recordings over and over again? Why do they say this? What if you dont want to burn everything to disc all the time? Is this something to worry about or just one of those stupid warnings you dont need to pay any attention too?
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post #2 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 01:09 AM
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It's a hard drive, just like you would find in a computer. They're prone to failure and data loss just like any other hard drive. The platters could get damaged, the heads could get out of alignment, bad sectors, etc. In theory, they should last longer than a computer HDD, as they don't see anywhere near the use, but the manual is correct in that they should not be relied upon as a permanent storage for your recordings.

Anything you feel is irreplaceable, you should burn them to disc.

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post #3 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, it just sounded strange, like they were saying you need to immediately burn to disc. if they are just like a PC harddrive thats ok. You might want to record some shows and maybe watch them a few times on the HDD and then record over/delete them like we did with VHS.
Just sounds like a warning so owners cant blame the HDD if they loose their recordings. If they complain, Panasonic can point out in the manual to them the statement in my first post.

While we are talking about the HDD, do we need to defragment them or anything like that every so often? Have not seen anything in the manuals about that yet.
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post #4 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 05:26 AM
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If you were worried about the HDD caution in the Panny manual, don't... they also have this warning in every manual, even for single-disc units:

"The manufacturer accepts no responsibility and offers no compensation for loss of recorded or edited material due to a problem with the unit or recordable media, and accepts no responsibility and offers no compensation for any subsequent damage caused by such loss.

Examples of causes of such losses are
  • A DISC recorded and edited with this unit is played in a DVD Recorder or computer disc drive manufactured by another company.
  • A DISC used as described above and then played again in this unit.
  • A DISC recorded and edited with a DVD Recorder or computer disc drive manufactured by another company is played in this unit."
This disclaimer appears on a different page in each model's manual, and an incredulous reader can verify this by searching for the word "compensation" in the Panasonic PDF manual.

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post #5 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 05:43 PM
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I've repeatedly told a friend of mine who keeps photos on his hard drive to back them up to CD.

His idea is to move them to a thumb drive.

"No!" I say. "Those can go bad too, just like a regular hard drive can. Use CDs!"

I'd say the same here, only use DVDs.
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post #6 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 10:58 PM
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On my older E100 and E95 Panasonic DVD recorders I always edit the hard drive and then backup the edited program to DVD-RAM. I think I was told or read that the only way back to the hard drive without losses was to backup to DVD-RAM. I try to never let the hard drive get more than 80% full before I backup and delete or just delete everything I don't want to keep and then reformat the hard drive. The other option is to erase all contents of the hard drive but I don't see the point in ever doing that. Reformat also accomplishes erasing all files and it also resets all of the internal tables that keep track of housekeeping, I was told by somebody here. That should be done regularly to keep the hard drive healthy. So far it has all worked well for me.

I don't know if the newer Panisonics use DVD-RAM or not but it has been a very reliable way for me to go.

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post #7 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Most if not all new ones use DVD- RAM. Having said that, i cant get my head around what exactly DVD-RAM is. I read about it on Wikapedia but it still seemed too technical for me and i could not see what the difference was between RAM and a RW disc. One difference i could see what that RAM is a square cartridge by the looks of in in the Panny manuals.

That is good advice for the HDD. I will remember that.
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post #8 of 58 Old 03-04-2012, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Having said that, i cant get my head around what exactly DVD-RAM is. I read about it on Wikapedia but it still seemed too technical for me and i could not see what the difference was between RAM and a RW disc.

Essentially DVD-RAM technology is closer to that of a hard drive than a DVD-RW while at the same time being just as reliable as DVD-R/RW over a hard drive for long term storage. This allows for a couple advantages:

You can rewrite a DVD-RW about a 1000 times. DVD-RAM, about 100,000 times.

You usually don't need authoring software for DVD-RAM. You can drag and drop files right onto it.

DVD-RAM can write data to the disc while simultaneously reading it, allowing for the same "chase play" functionality of hard drives. The other DVD formats cannot.

There are other advantages but those are the main ones. AFAIK, only Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba, and maybe one or two others supported DVD-RAM.

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post #9 of 58 Old 03-05-2012, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, that makes it a bit easier to understand. Would a laptop be able to read DVD-RAM?
i looked on the side of my drive tray and there is no DVD-RAM logo.
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post #10 of 58 Old 03-05-2012, 08:33 AM
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You'd need to check the technical specs for the drive to know for sure. If it's not listed in the specs section somewhere on your laptop, then Find the name of it, and google to see whether it can or not.

Dazed and confused over high tech.

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post #11 of 58 Old 03-05-2012, 08:42 AM
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If you're running Windows, the DVD drive should appear as a drive under My Computer with "DVD-RAM Drive" or other name.
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post #12 of 58 Old 03-05-2012, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Just says DVD-RW drive DVD/CD ROM drive and

Toshiba HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA - T20N ATA device

when i right click on E drive. Yes i have windows vista.

Maybe it is a RAM drive then?

I have hardly burnt any CD or DVDs with it. Maybe 3 DVD's and 30 CD's in the 3 years i have had it but now it will not format or write DVD's. It will format CD's and read DVD's. I have not changed discs brands. They are the same pack i have had for ages. i think the laser must be stuffed. I tried a Memorex DVD lens cleaner but the thing would not even load/play/be recognised. Its a lap top so i am not sure if i can stick a new drive in it off ebay or not.
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post #13 of 58 Old 03-06-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

The Panasonic manuals say the following

The HDD is a temporary storage device

The HDD is not a everlasting storage device for recorded content.
Use the HDD as a temporary place for one off viewing, editing or coping. It is recomended to save the recorded content on a disc or to keep the original data or CDs that they were copied from.

What does this mean? Are they saying something will happen if you use the HDD as storage to watch your recordings over and over again? Why do they say this? What if you dont want to burn everything to disc all the time? Is this something to worry about or just one of those stupid warnings you dont need to pay any attention too?

As others have said, it's merely a means of covering their legal liability. The manual also says that they (Panasonic) are not responsible for any loss of content due to a hard drive failure. It's in there to save them from a situation where you took priceless footage, and then the hard drive failed and you lost all the content, so you thought you'd sue Panasonic for the loss. It really does not imply or suggest anything else.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #14 of 58 Old 03-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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Not all DVD-RAM are in cartridges. In fact, I think some Panasonic players, S-27, S-29, while they can play -RAM, do not accept cartridges. Another -RAM advantage, for the Panasonic, DVD-RAM is the only dvd that will high-speed copy DVD to HDD.
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post #15 of 58 Old 03-06-2012, 02:06 PM
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My LG-DR 787T DVDR (2006) records to DVD-RAM,but not cartridges.Never tried it though.Today i only use this DVDR for recording to +DL discs.Still records well,even after 6 yrs.
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post #16 of 58 Old 03-08-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

I've repeatedly told a friend of mine who keeps photos on his hard drive to back them up to CD.

His idea is to move them to a thumb drive.

"No!" I say. "Those can go bad too, just like a regular hard drive can. Use CDs!"

The real key is to have at least two copies, and even more if the data is really valuable to you. What media you put them on is not that big a deal, as long as you check the copies regularly so that if one dies you can recover from the good copy that remains. Any media, including CDs, can suffer failure. The real safety is in numbers of copies and regular checks.

I personally wouldn't recommend thumb drives because they're quite expensive on a $/byte basis. And I personally wouldn't use CDs either, because with a large collection comprising many discs it's just too onerous to do regular checks. My media of choice is hard drives because I can hook one up to my computer and let 'er rip to verify all my checksums whilst I work on something else.
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post #17 of 58 Old 03-08-2012, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so whats the recommendation with DVD RAM discs? I want to get some regular and large capacity ones. Should i only buy Panasonic branded RAM discs? are they the best? Is there different series or RAM discs that they make or just the 2 types? I saw some on ebay yesterday but not sure which ones to get. Thanks
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post #18 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Nelson View Post

The real key is to have at least two copies, and even more if the data is really valuable to you. What media you put them on is not that big a deal, as long as you check the copies regularly so that if one dies you can recover from the good copy that remains. Any media, including CDs, can suffer failure. The real safety is in numbers of copies and regular checks.

This should be so obvious, but it often bears repeating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Nelson View Post

I personally wouldn't recommend thumb drives because they're quite expensive on a $/byte basis. And I personally wouldn't use CDs either, because with a large collection comprising many discs it's just too onerous to do regular checks. My media of choice is hard drives because I can hook one up to my computer and let 'er rip to verify all my checksums whilst I work on something else.

It's all a matter of your risk tolerance. The larger the storage unit the greater the content loss potential should it go down. Personally I prefer optical media for archival storage and am comfortable with BD-R. But for me, archival storage means burn the disk, verify it, put it in proper storage and never handle it again. My day-to-day live working storage is entirely HDD NAS or media-PC based RAID disk-farm. The only reason I would have to pull a disk out of archive and handle it is to reload a failed array.

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post #19 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Ok so whats the recommendation with DVD RAM discs? I want to get some regular and large capacity ones. Should i only buy Panasonic branded RAM discs? are they the best? Is there different series or RAM discs that they make or just the 2 types?

I started using Panasonic RAM disks back in 2004 and was able to buy about 60 of them for $1/disk when Best Buy was clearing them out. I have never lost a RAM disk or the data on one. As a result I have about 40 virgin disks that are still in their wrappers and will probably never be used.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #20 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Ok so whats the recommendation with DVD RAM discs? I want to get some regular and large capacity ones. Should i only buy Panasonic branded RAM discs? are they the best? Is there different series or RAM discs that they make or just the 2 types? I saw some on ebay yesterday but not sure which ones to get. Thanks

Okay, now you have confused me again. Can you give me an example of "regular" -RAM disks, and an example of "large capacity" -RAM disks please.

I am only aware of regular -RAM disks which have a bit under 4000MB capacity, and an odd mini -RAM disk that is physically smaller, and has a resulting smaller capacity. There have been rumors of a dual sided -RAM disk that you have to turn over in your machine to use, but they are actually (capacity-wise) just two disks glued together, and more expensive than two single sided disks Since you have to physically flip them, there is no advantage that I can see in them.

The only real varient in -RAM disks I am aware of is write speed. Most of my disks, and all the ones I have form Panasonic are 3x. I have some Verbatim that are 5x, which I really like to use a lot more. On paper, the time savings isn't much, but the preception of time savings when using them is significant (to me).

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #21 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

Okay, now you have confused me again. Can you give me an example of "regular" -RAM disks, and an example of "large capacity" -RAM disks please.

I am only aware of regular -RAM disks which have a bit under 4000MB capacity, and an odd mini -RAM disk that is physically smaller, and has a resulting smaller capacity. There have been rumors of a dual sided -RAM disk that you have to turn over in your machine to use, but they are actually (capacity-wise) just two disks glued together, and more expensive than two single sided disks Since you have to physically flip them, there is no advantage that I can see in them.

I just counted my DVD-RAM and I have 331 that I have purchased since 2004.
2004 2X (10) free from Panasonic with some kind of rebate coupon
2004/2005 3X (105) from Walmart ~ $2.00 4.7GB
2004/2005 3x (20) from Best Buy ~ $4.00 4.7GB
2005 3X (40) from Best Buy ~ $1.00 4.7GB
2005 Double Sided in Cart BASF (20) Total Media Inc. ~$4.00 9.4GB
2005 3X (100) Crutchfield ~ $2.00 4.7GB Blue scratch resistant
2006 3X (10) from Best Buy ~2.00 4.7GB Blue scratch resistant
I haven't tried the BASF double sided in a cartridge yet. It might be a pain removing them from the cartridge?

I haven't purchased any DVD-RAM since 2006 so I have no idea what is available now and at what price. I think I bought a lifetime supply in 2005?

One thing that I don't remember anyone else saying is that Panasonic said back when I bought my E100, E85 & E95 is that the only lossless way back to the hard drive is from DVD-RAM. Any other medium will incur picture quality losses. I don't think my DVD recorders will even allow DVD-R to dub back to the hard drive, that is why I bought all of those DVD-RAM. They have worked wonderfully for me.

Dave
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post #22 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Regular/standard - 4.7 gb
large - 9.4gb

I may be out a little on the capacities a bit though, i know the large one is 9 something gig. The Panasonic manuals list those. So the 9.4gb discs are dual sided not dual layered (you have to flip them) and cant watch all the way through?
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post #23 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Regular/standard - 4.7 gb
large - 9.4gb

I may be out a little on the capacities a bit though, i know the large one is 9 something gig. The Panasonic manuals list those. So the 9.4gb discs are dual sided not dual layered (you have to flip them) and cant watch all the way through?

Yes, that would be my guess. The sizes printed on the labels of my DVD-RAM are (4.7GB & 9.4GB). If I were you I would stick to the single sided 4.7GB 3X disks. I am not even sure my double sided 9.7GB disks will fit into the recorder but they probably will if I can get them out of the cartridge without damaging them? Plus there is no way to label them with both sides being recording sides. The cartridge is labeled side A and side B with plenty of labeling surface but the cartridge won't fit into my DVD recorders and it probably won't fit into any DVD recorder? Cartridges were probably made to fit into some computer drives???

My advice is to stick with Panasonic brand 3X, 4.7GB DVD-RAM. They are a great trouble free product if you can still find them.

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post #24 of 58 Old 03-09-2012, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh so they are no longer made? I have some videos that are going to be longer than 2.5 hours long so i was looking at what discs i could store them on. Will probably have to do with 8.5gb DVD-R. Panasonic supports DVD RAM 9.4 and DVDR-8.5GB so i should br right there. Not really keen on the double sided/flip situation so i might pass on the 9.4gb RAMs.

I dont fully understand the 3x 8x 16x speeds etc but i am not really fussed about needing to record to disc quickly. I would rather much have a slower more thorough record if it means better quality.

Thanks
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post #25 of 58 Old 03-10-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Oh so they are no longer made? I have some videos that are going to be longer than 2.5 hours long so i was looking at what discs i could store them on. Will probably have to do with 8.5gb DVD-R. Panasonic supports DVD RAM 9.4 and DVDR-8.5GB so i should br right there. Not really keen on the double sided/flip situation so i might pass on the 9.4gb RAMs.

I don't fully understand the 3x 8x 16x speeds etc but i am not really fussed about needing to record to disc quickly. I would rather much have a slower more thorough record if it means better quality.

Thanks

I don't know if they are still made or not. By 2006 I thought I had enough to last me my lifetime so I haven't looked. But everything else Panasonic made for DVD recording hasn't been imported into the USA since 2006 so it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't available here anymore. Maybe in your part of the world that won't be a problem?

As far as 2X or 3X goes for DVD-RAM that indicates just how fast a high speed dub (copy) from and to the hard drive would be. I haven't really timed it but I think a 4341MB file (Max Size my E95 will put on a DVD-RAM) will take about 10 minutes using a 3X DVD-RAM? Maybe close to 20 minutes using a 2X DVD-RAM? I noticed a big improvement when I went from 2X to 3X DVD-RAM's. I use the SP speed for all of my recordings so 4341MB equals about 2 hours and 5 minutes of program time. So being able to Dub a 2:05 program to a 3X DVD_RAM using the High Speed (means digital) in about 10-15 minutes is nice. High Speed (digital) also means NO QUALITY LOSS.

My E95 was made when only 4X DVD-R's were available so the burner is tuned to use 4X and slower blank DVD-R's. There may have been a firmware upgrade after that so that it could burn 8X DVD-R's? If there was, I didn't change my E95. I bought a large supply of 4X Verbatum DVD-R's, probably a lifetime supply so I have no intention of ever using anything faster that 4X.

On Black Friday I bought a 1 to 3 DVD duplicator from SMS for around $300 so now I burn one DVD-R from the hard drive in my E95 and put that 4X DVD-R in my duplicator and put blank 16X DVD-R's in the 3 slave drives and it makes 3 copies in about 5 minutes. I think I have this DVD world by the tail now. I am a happy camper.

Oh...for your 2.5 hour programs you could use the LP speed when you record it to your hard drive and that would give you a 4 hour record time or use the FR speed and adjust the recording time to just over 2.5 hours. Both will probably reduce your video quality a little? The FR setting would reduce it less than the LP setting. What ever setting you use to record the program to your hard drive will be the setting used on the DVD-RAM (I think, I always use the SP speed so I have no experience with programs over 2:05).

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post #26 of 58 Old 03-10-2012, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that info. I will give it a decent read through. No real issues getting RAM discs. I import stuff from all over the place.
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post #27 of 58 Old 03-10-2012, 03:47 PM
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Crutchfield sells Panasonic RAMs.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #28 of 58 Old 03-10-2012, 03:54 PM
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So does Fry's. I think they're $6.99 for a 5-pack (that's for the 2-3x data RAM's, which are re-formatted easily by the recorder, and work fine - the video ones cost a couple of bucks more).
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post #29 of 58 Old 03-10-2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC E100 View Post

On my older E100 and E95 Panasonic DVD recorders I always edit the hard drive and then backup the edited program to DVD-RAM. I think I was told or read that the only way back to the hard drive without losses was to backup to DVD-RAM. I try to never let the hard drive get more than 80% full before I backup and delete or just delete everything I don't want to keep and then reformat the hard drive. The other option is to erase all contents of the hard drive but I don't see the point in ever doing that. Reformat also accomplishes erasing all files and it also resets all of the internal tables that keep track of housekeeping, I was told by somebody here. That should be done regularly to keep the hard drive healthy. So far it has all worked well for me.

I don't know if the newer Panisonics use DVD-RAM or not but it has been a very reliable way for me to go.

Dave

hi dave...

finally.... geez...
i thought i was the only one on the planet with a DMR-E95 machine...
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post #30 of 58 Old 03-11-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkg22 View Post

hi dave...

finally.... geez...
i thought i was the only one on the planet with a DMR-E95 machine...

I started out with a DMR-E100 in 2003 for $834 and then bought a E85 in 2004 for $477. Then in 2005 I saw this deal on the E95 for $350. I like to have back-ups to everything and each succeeding model had a larger hard drive. The E95 is my workhorse now. The E100 is setting here with a lot of stuff on it's hard drive which I haven't had time to edit and get off to RAM. I switched from the E100 to the E95 mainly because the E100 didn't have thumbnail pictures in it's index. My E85 is still in the box having never been powered up. It is my backup to my backup.

Since the digital TV transition it is a bit of a pain to do timed recordings having to use a converter box. I will never have cable or satellite so the converter box is my only answer, Getting the aspect setting right is a challenge because I never know in advance just how the local PBS station is going to transmit each program. Last night they rebroadcast the Peter, Paul and Mary 25th Anniversary, shrunk in from all 4 sides so I will have to catch tonights broadcast and set the converter box to "cropped" to be able to fill most of the screen and still keep the aspect right. I think they purposely screw up the aspect ratio just to keep people like me that like to record their programs and edit out all the pledge breaks, on their toes?

Nobody will ever convince me that the lack of DVD recorders in the USA is because of "lack of demand". The MPAA with their high powered lawyers have scared the Japan manufacturers into full retreat. Only China is willing to test the MPAA with a model or two and that will probably end soon? We will never again have anything that records anything if the MPAA has it's way. That is why I need backups to the backups.

Dave
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