Double Sided DVDs on the Magnavox 2160 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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This is basically a media question but it involves using a double sided DVD on the Magnavox 2160 recorder.

I was thinking of using double sided DVDs to dub content on both sides of the disc from the HDD and have a few questions:

1. Would dubbing a double sided disc work the same way as a single layer DVD, just that you have to flip the disc over to dub to the opposite side?


2. Is the longevity of the double layer discs the same as a single layer disc?


3. Is there a way to label the double layer discs near the center hole or is it basically not easy to do since both layers are being used?


4. Any recommendations as to what double layer discs to use of high quality and comparable to what I have been using? I took advice from members here and have been using the JVC Taiyo Yuden Shiny Silver Thermal 8X DVD+R Media 100 Pack I got at the SuperMediaStore and they have been great but it is only a single layer disc.

Thanks for any feedback, I appreciate it.
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 02:44 PM
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Not sure how many people here have exp. w/double-sided discs, but here's a 2006-2009 Amazon discussion, with the consensus that "they suck."
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post #3 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sisophous View Post

This is basically a media question but it involves using a double sided DVD on the Magnavox 2160 recorder.

I was thinking of using double sided DVDs to dub content on both sides of the disc from the HDD and have a few questions:

I have another question: can the 2160 just burn double sided DVDs in a safety way? (Not double layer)
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post #4 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by profhat View Post

I have another question: can the 2160 just burn double sided DVDs in a safety way? (Not double layer)

What exactly do you mean by "a safety way"?

This is the first I've ever heard of double sided recordable DVDs. Up 'til now I've only known of them as DVDs with movies and shows already on them. (ARE there even any recordable double-sided discs out there? In ANY format?)

I'm going to check out Wajo's link, but are you (profhat) aware of any danger of any kind associated with these discs?

Why did you ask the question?
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post #5 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

What exactly do you mean by "a safety way"?

I echo this question, seems this topic is creating more questions than answers.

I do not know if there are any double sided recordable DVDs out there, but I rented many DVDs that were double sided (played on both sides) and their clarity was every bit as good as single sided discs. They must exist for recording if companies are putting out double sided discs and I have viewed many titles with as much as 6 hours of recording on these double sided discs with high definition quality.

Just recently, I rented a few double sided discs from Netflix on the 1978 TV series "CHIPS" and was floored by how sharp the picture was on over 6 hours of filming covering 8 episodes on a single disc.

My intention on even bringing up this thread is I much prefer to store content on as few discs as possible granted the quality stored is equal to recording/dubbing on a single layer disc.

Also, Wajo mentioned the Amazon thread on the double sided discs and the people making comments really trashed them, but not a single person on that Amazon link made any comment about them specifically as to what they did not like about the double sided discs.
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post #6 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

ARE there even any recordable double-sided discs out there? In ANY format?

Yep. Type 4 dvd-ram, in a double-sided cartridge.
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post #7 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 08:23 PM
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They apparently are still available (though not currently produced): http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=all
but at $19 per disk for Memorex (DVD RAM, it appears the only 2 sided DVD R products are the mini discs for camcorders) would make absolutely no sense to buy when you can get single sided Verbatim AZO disks for less than 50¢ each.
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post #8 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

They apparently are still available (though not currently produced): http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=all
but at $19 per disk


Thanks for the info. It makes no sense why they are not cheaply and easily available but it looks like the double sided disks are not the way to go. I've noticed no difference in picture quality between double and single sided disks but perhaps longevity is an issue when using a double sided disk. I'm surprised the public has not shown interest in the two sided disks being the picture quality is equally as good as on a single sided disk.
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post #9 of 21 Old 03-25-2012, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sisophous View Post

I do not know if there are any double sided recordable DVDs out there, but I rented many DVDs that were double sided (played on both sides) and their clarity was every bit as good as single sided discs. They must exist for recording if companies are putting out double sided discs and I have viewed many titles with as much as 6 hours of recording on these double sided discs with high definition quality.

Those discs you rented were pressed, not burned, so comparing them to double sided recordable DVDs is apples and oranges.

That being said, I would wager the reason the Amazon double sided discs don't get good reviews is because the majority of recordable DVDs out there, single or double sided, aren't very good anyway.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
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post #10 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sisophous View Post

not a single person on that Amazon link made any comment about them specifically as to what they did not like about the double sided discs.

A few possible drawbacks:

The adhesive used to hold the two sides together was problematic on some Hollywood releases and could potentially be much worse with cheaply made consumer recordable discs, which are often dicey to begin with. If the sandwich is made with poor alignment (very typical of Memorex), it multiplies the chances of random recording failures and compatibility with playback gear suffers.

No decent way to label the disc contents. Granted, you may not care, and would be happy to just slap a post-it note on the plastic storage case (or write very tiny in the miniscule hub area available for labeling). Most people find that a bother, keep several loose discs sitting around the coffee table, and need to identify them at a glance.

Both sides playable means both sides require more careful handling. An issue for some users: twice the risk of scratching or other damage.

Maybe too obvious, but since no one's mentioned it: no real advantage for consumer use. Unlike the old laserdisc players, no DVD players or recorders have been sold with an automatic side-flipping feature. The reason many people flock to the flakey but commonly-available "dual layer/single side" blank media is to gain the combination of nearly double the continuous recording time without having to flip it over or change between two single-layer discs. Dual-layer/single-side can be crucial for those who don't have an HDD in their DVD recorder: recording direct to disc you would need the DL technology to cope with long movies or sports events. But dual-side flipper discs would not help with that issue, and don't really save much on storage space: you can easily buy slim DVD cases that hold two to six discs in the shelf space of a single standard case.

There are recording, compatibility, and archival questions plaguing dual-layer recordable media. Dual-sided recordable discs would (or did) likely have similar problems. Hollywood gets away with it because the disc data layer is pressed, not burned: it gives them more margin for mfrg error. And even Hollywood hedges its bets: you'd be surprised how many TV series were released dual-sided in stores but re-done exclusively for Netflix as single sided, because NetFlix reported too many rental compatibility, playback, and fragility problems. Double capacity recordable discs are a nice idea but hard to pull off with both economy and reliability.
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post #11 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

Hollywood gets away with it because the disc data layer is pressed, not burned: Double capacity recordable discs are a nice idea but hard to pull off with both economy and reliability.

That does it for me, thanks for the explanation, I'm sticking with the single layer discs. Labeling is important to me and to even read the label on double sided discs you have to squint because the print is so small and in the center region of the disc.

I appreciate all the other replies too, this forum is incredibly helpful.
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post #12 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 09:27 AM
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I have a few oem dual sided titles that had the 4.3 on one side and the 16:9 on the other. ie STARMAN, THE MOSQUITO COAST.

MickinCT
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post #13 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 04:34 PM
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Regarding blank double-sided media, I have none and I indent to keep it that way. I will stick to the proven single sided AZO discs made by Verbatim. Heck I don't even use T-Y or Verbatim duel-layer discs because A) they are too expensive B) I'm not convinced that they are of archival quality, and C) I believe in order to penetrate to the second layer it takes more laser power.

The labeling of discs is not a concern to me as I don't label discs directly and I would never ever leave discs laying around naked on a coffee table. As soon as I'm done playing a disc it immediately goes back in its case - no exceptions. My strict disc and tape handling rules are established from my broadcast and pro production training and I take those rules home with me. If anyone at my home should handle one of my discs or tapes, they know the rules. Proudly I can say my tapes and discs work so I have no shame with my strict rules.

As to double-sided commercially pressed discs, I have a few. The early ones I have, you have to flip the disc (what a pain) these must of came out before they invented duel-layer pressings. I know people that have (as someone mentioned here) double sided pressings with a 4:3 screen on one side and a 16:9 screen on the other side. The problem with these are that the whole movie, possibly with extras is crammed into a single layer. What they should of done is make a double-layer pressing in 16:9 and put the 4:3 and 16:9 flags in the ifo so people can choose their format. This is only good for 4:3 center-cropped movies and not for true pan and scan movies of course.

The third kind of double sided pressings I have is short 90 minute or less concerts with no extras. On one side they put PCM 2-channel uncompressed audio and on side two they put DD5.1 compressed sound. These are pretty good cause if you scratch one side you have insurance on side 2.
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post #14 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 04:54 PM
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Looks like Amazon lists a couple SL DS blanks(9.4gb) but both brands are cheap(Ridata and Matrix??) and since they are more than 2x quality DVDs I won't be purchasing them anytime soon. Like others I really detest DS DVDs, DLs are fine but not DS.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_sc...8383608921d3ba
They are both 8x which is good I guess and the prices are $36.99/50 or $41.99/100, no reviews of either even though they have been sold on Amazon since Oct '07 and June 11'
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post #15 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...As to double-sided commercially pressed discs, I have a few. The early ones I have, you have to flip the disc (what a pain) these must of came out before they invented duel-layer pressings...

The ones that I have, and REALLY hate are the DL-DS commercially pressed disks. That is, dual layer, dual sidded disks. Yeah, they are called DVD 18. They are also awful
Quote:


DVD-18
DVD-18 in an acronym that means a two-sided DVD disc with two layers of data on both sides of the disc -- in other terms, it is a two-sided disc that holds DVD-9 disc on both sides of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Looks like Amazon lists a couple SL DS blanks(9.4gb) but both brands are cheap(Ridata and Matrix??) and since they are more than 2x quality DVDs I won't be purchasing them anytime soon. Like others I really detest DS DVDs, DLs are fine but not DS.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_sc...8383608921d3ba
They are both 8x which is good I guess and the prices are $36.99/50 or $41.99/100, no reviews of either even though they have been sold on Amazon since Oct '07 and June 11'

That was my opinion. Why would I get a disk that was more than the cost of two single sidded disks, when I would have to physically turn it over to utilize the additional space? If was going to do that, I might just as well swap disks.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #16 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

The ones that I have, and REALLY hate are the DL-DS commercially pressed disks. That is, dual layer, dual sidded disks. Yeah, they are called DVD 18. They are also awful.

DVD18 has to be the all-time champ of horrible commercial DVD offshoots. The worst example I've ever encountered was the "American Gothic" series set. If you want to see the highest concentration of defect complaints ever lodged against a single DVD release, just peruse the Amazon reviews for "American Gothic." I bought it, because its one of my favorite shows, but had to spend quite a lot of time backing up each individual DVD18 layer to a quality single-layer disc for correct playback and archiving. And I had to exchange four "American Gothic" sets to cobble together one complete set of usable discs. Ugh.

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The labeling of discs is not a concern to me as I don’t label discs directly

Yes, thats a holdover from "best practices" we both learned working in pro video houses. It doesn't really apply to our DVD-Rs, though: the odds of a Sharpie marker causing any damage to the data are vanishingly small compared to the likelihood of an unlabeled disc just randomly corrupting itself after several years. As discussed in other threads here, the Sharpie threat was quite significant for CD-R and did damage many lesser brands, because the CD-R data layer was directly exposed to any pens or markers. But DVD-R is quite secure in its plastic sandwich.

The whole recordable DVD concept is a fakeout anyway: we cross our fingers and hope for the best, but it isn't truly archival by nature. I store my DVDs in the cylindrical bulk cakeboxes they came in: with many thousands, I don't have room for individual plastic cases and external labels. I have them indexed in an Excel spreadsheet catalog for easy location and retrieval, but I do need to label the discs themselves to make the system practical.

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and I would never ever leave discs laying around naked on a coffee table. As soon as I’m done playing a disc it immediately goes back in its case – no exceptions.

You and I wouldn't and don't, but typical users do. We have to bear in mind half the people who post to this recorder forum nowadays are not perfectionists and collectors: they handle their DVDs like they handled their VHS (directly labeled with a marker, and indeed left uncased on shelves and tables for weeks or months).

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Originally Posted by mickinct View Post

I have a few oem dual sided titles that had the 4.3 on one side and the 16:9 on the other. ie STARMAN, THE MOSQUITO COAST.

I really liked this concept in the early days, when I still had an all-CRT household. It was nice to have a dedicated 4:3 version available when watching with less-discerning groups who were put off by letterboxing, but still have the 16:9 version on the same disc. Early on, the dual-layer DVD9 was extremely dodgy and incompatible with many players (much like the early BluRay disc mess). The dual-side flipper discs were much more compatible and reliable. Though as SuperEye mentioned, dual-side fell apart if they tried to cram extras or very long films onto a single side. Eventually dual-layer pressed disc quality stabilized and the twitchy first-generation DVD players were replaced by cheaper more forgiving units. Today we rarely see flipper discs anymore, except from really clueless and annoying studios with no respect for their TV series (or the fans who buy them).
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post #17 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

DVD18 has to be the all-time champ of horrible commercial DVD offshoots. The worst example I've ever encountered was the "American Gothic" series set. If you want to see the highest concentration of defect complaints ever lodged against a single DVD release, just peruse the Amazon reviews for "American Gothic." I bought it, because its one of my favorite shows, but had to spend quite a lot of time backing up each individual DVD18 layer to a quality single-layer disc for correct playback and archiving. And I had to exchange four "American Gothic" sets to cobble together one complete set of usable discs. Ugh.
.
.
.

For me it was the original Outer Limits series, on DVD18s. I too spent a lot of time copying them to single sided, single layer disks. I did it for two reasons though, one I greatly dislike the DVD18 disks, and two, whoever put the "chapter breaks" into this set of disks must have been breathing some vapors from combusting plants. There were some (many?) breaks in the middle of a sentence, or even a word. What really annoyed me is, the commercial breaks are very clearly seen in fade-to-black segments, so why the random and stupid chapter placement? *MY* disks have it right!

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #18 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

For me it was the original Outer Limits series, on DVD18s. I too spent a lot of time copying them to single sided, single layer disks.

Oh, heck- you just HAD to remind me of those "Outer Limits" discs! I totally forgot they were DVD18, I haven't looked at them in a long time. Now I have to go dig them out and make sure theystill play OK (and also think about burning single-layer backups). When I bought the OL series sets years ago, I didn't yet have good backup software, so I never thought to make backups onto SL media. Now you remind me, I really should do that.

Several hours later: Well, now I'm glad you reminded me about the old OL discs, Luke: I just speed-searched thru them all, and discovered the final DVD in the season two set has completely corrupted itself since I last checked in 2007. Neither side will play without freezing the hardware so badly I have to yank power to regain control over it. Even the "American Gothic" discs weren't this bad: the disc is a no-go in all my recorders, players, PC drives, Mac Mini and brand new Samsung laptop. I'll have to go buy a replacement disc.
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post #19 of 21 Old 03-28-2012, 10:22 AM
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Gosh! I don't know if I should say "Sorry" or "You're welcome." Yep, in order to save a bit on the number of disks, they sure screwed up on the whole thing.

What episodes are you missing due to that corrupted disk. I can send you a copies of my copies. I don't see an issue with this as you DID purchase the series.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #20 of 21 Old 03-28-2012, 03:19 PM
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Thank you kindly for the offer, ChurchAVGuy: I'll PM you for sure if I can't find an alternative. Oddly enough, it appears once Sony took over MGM's "TV-On-DVD" library they began breaking the older sets up into individual "volumes." The disc I need is the final one in Season 2, which they now apparently sell individually as "Season 2, Vol. 3" at our old friends J&R. I'll head over there this week and see if its in stock, if not I'll take you up on your offer of assistance.

Really strange that just the one disc is totally completely rotted away: all of the others play perfectly fine, and this one that suddenly "died" was fine last time I played it. I'm gonna need to open all my TV series sets and double check any flipper discs I find. Luckily I think the only other sets I have in DVD18 format are the old Bob Newhart shows (the ones with "Emily").
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-28-2012, 04:14 PM
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[still totally off topic, sorry]

The outer Limits set I have has been broken up into six DL-DS disks, with eight episodes per disk (nine on the last disk) for a total of 49 episodes, which matches EPGUIDES for the original Outer Limits. It is a box containing the three volumes that were originally sold separately, each volume containing two disks for 16 episodes.

[/still totally off topic, sorry]

I really think that double sided blank disks, which I had never even heard of until this thread, are a foolish idea. They are more expensive than two single sided media and offer no real advantage since you have to manually flip them. Dual (double?) layer disks DO offer useful advantages, which is what I use when necessary.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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