Menu flickering with CRT? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I was trying out my new Panny recorder today and the picture is fine on my 10 year old CRT but when i go into the programe guide and set up menus, the menus pulse and the sides of the menu boxes are wonky and not straight. I have tried composite, s-vid and component and it makes no difference. I noticed my Set top box was a bit the same as the sides of the menu and channel info boxes are not straight. In the Panny certain menus pulse more than others.

Is this a sign my TV is on its way out? Normal TV is fine though, its only when i go into the menus that they start to pulse and i cant figure out why. I fiddled with aspect ratios etc and that made no difference.

Anyway i hope its not the recorder.
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 06:24 AM
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Maybe a PAL/NTSC issue?

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post #3 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

Maybe a PAL/NTSC issue?

That's what I would suspect. From page 60 in the EH59 manual:

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To change the setting all at once (PAL<-->NTSC)
While stopped, keep pressing [] and [< OPEN/CLOSE>] on the
main unit at the same time for 5 or more seconds.


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post #4 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I will check it out, but it is only the menus that are pulsing.
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post #5 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

I will check it out, but it is only the menus that are pulsing.

Not too surprising as I THINK it passes through video without altering the format. The menus it has to internally generate and for that is uses the video format that you have selected. It has been a while, so I might be wrong about this. I know that even though I have NTSC selected, if I put in a PAL disk, it plays it in PAL and outputs a PAL video stream, so I think the native mode overrides the setting.

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post #6 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

…the menus pulse and the sides of the menu boxes are wonky and not straight. …I noticed my Set top box was a bit the same as the sides of the menu and channel info boxes are not straight. In the Panny certain menus pulse more than others. ...Is this a sign my TV is on its way out? Normal TV is fine though,

CRTs are known to flicker with motionless graphics due to low Hz.

The bending is most likely caused from having your contrast set too high and is probably blooming and the power supply is not sending enough power. try turning down the contrast. If that doesn't help you need to set up your geometry via the service mode menu or via physical controls on the back of the set.
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Well i had my TV set to PAL and went into the panny settings and it has option to have NTSC output as NTSC or PAL 60. I left it as PAL 60. I assume, being australian it should be set up as PAL output normally as thats what the tuner would be. I have not tried the instructions in the EH59 manual yet but because mine is a newer model XW480 it may be different. It should be outputing native PAL already.

I tried turning down the contrast which was at 100. It made no difference.

As soon as i click on function/menu and go into the first menu, its not too bad, almost no flickering i would say but as soon as i go into 'others' the smaller sub box that appears flickers really bad. The programe guide flickers a fair bit too. Its quite strange. I will rig up my EZ48 again tonight and see if the menus do the flickering on that too. The other odd thing is that the sides of the menu boxes are mostly bent with wobbly edges.

At sometime this week i will have a chance to try it on another CRT and a newer HD LCD screen and see if its the same with that.

I think it may be my aging TV because sometimes in one spot on the TV there is a greenish patch which also comes and goes. The menus in my external set top box also have crooked eges on the menu/programe guide boxes and i am sure they were not like that when i got it 2 years ago so that makes me think my TV is on the way out. Is this a normal thing that happens with CRTs?

only spec i have on my TV is 'All-band CATV (470Mhz)

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If that doesn't help you need to set up your geometry via the service mode menu or via physical controls on the back of the set.

I have never seen any sort of adjusting buttons on the back of my set. Should they all have them? I will have to check this out.
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post #8 of 20 Old 03-26-2012, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82;21832037I View Post

think it may be my aging TV because sometimes in one spot on the TV there is a greenish patch which also comes and goes. The menus in my external set top box also have crooked eges on the menu/programe guide boxes and i am sure they were not like that when i got it 2 years ago so that makes me think my TV is on the way out. Is this a normal thing that happens with CRTs?

Do you have something with a large magnet near the CRT? Like a large speaker or electric motor? These kind of things are known to cause discoloration and odd distortions. If not I'd say your CRT set is going. Like I said in a previous post - power supply related problems cause bending, especially in bright areas. Maybe your geometry is out of whack.

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Originally Posted by Cyclone82;21832037II View Post

have never seen any sort of adjusting buttons on the back of my set. Should they all have them? I will have to check this out.

With many sets you have to take the back cover off and I don't advise you do this. Many newer sets have a secret code service-mode menu and these type of adjustments can be performed.

Don't know about Australia but in Canada 6 to 9 year old problem free 32 inch CRTS with component inputs are going from free to $40 max on craigslist. Older CRTs, any year CRTs with a problem can't be given away for free as no one will bite and you're probably need to pay someone to pick it up and haul it away or take it to the electronic recycling depot yourself.

Maybe it's time for a new TV? As I said around my parts you can get a problem free 6 year old 32 inch CRT with component inputs from free to $40.
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post #9 of 20 Old 03-27-2012, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Well for all its life it has a floor standing speaker below and off to the side a bit, i would not call it real close though. In January i shifted that speaker though. The tuner in the set packed it in years ago so i have been using it as a monitor for about 7 years.

Yes well i had been thinking about a new TV and started looking last night. The reason i like CRTs though is because it makes VHS tapes or poor DVD's look outstanding. I have no problems watching SD on a CRT, but i spose i should update and see what all the fuss is about and make use of my HD equipment. Long term plan is a massive wall mounted screen but wont be a while till i can afford that so for now i am on the hunt for a 18-19" (or maybe up to 22") TV but must have S-video input. Still need to test out my pannys on some other TV's but i would say there is something about my TV that does not like still menus.
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post #10 of 20 Old 03-27-2012, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Yes well i had been thinking about a new TV and started looking last night. The reason i like CRTs though is because it makes VHS tapes or poor DVD's look outstanding. I have no problems watching SD on a CRT, but i spose i should update and see what all the fuss is about and make use of my HD equipment.

Sadly, HD CRT TVs were a way too short-lived product. It was a great transitional technology from SD to HD that allows quality viewing of both SD and HD content. I own a 32" Widescreen CRT HDTV Samsung. I'm sure its proven CRT technology will outlast most current flat-panel plasmas/LCDs.
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post #11 of 20 Old 03-27-2012, 11:47 AM
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What I thought wasn't really a bad idea were those 480i, widescreen CRT's that briefly popped up on the scene.

By the time they get finished grinding the quality of HD into dirt, I imagine there'll be a pretty good amount of people that wish they had something like those to go back to using, to be able to stomach viewing it.

When it gets to that point, even those 480p, "EDTV" plasmas they had in the earlier days would be better than the higher resolution displays that are out now, for a lot of the people that are more sensitive to digital artifacts.
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post #12 of 20 Old 03-27-2012, 12:15 PM
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By the time they get finished grinding the quality of HD into dirt, I imagine there'll be a pretty good amount of people that wish they had something like those to go back to using, to be able to stomach viewing it.

What's the matter? Don't you like how ABC has reduced the bitrate of their HD channel to <8Mbps since January? My wife has me collecting the last season of DHW for her -- she doesn't want to watch it until the season has ended. The TiVo file is only 3GB and after I edit out the commercials it's down to 2GB/episode.

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post #13 of 20 Old 03-27-2012, 11:44 PM
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What's the matter? Don't you like how ABC has reduced the bitrate of their HD channel to <8Mbps since January?

Why the FCC doesn't do anything about it? Another question, are you sure that the low bitrate isn't fault of you cable/sat co? Just saying because I don't remember what source feeds your TiVo.

Anyway, tomorrow the ppl will be happy with just 6Mbps x channel.
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post #14 of 20 Old 03-28-2012, 05:06 AM
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post #15 of 20 Old 03-28-2012, 07:35 AM
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Why the FCC doesn't do anything about it?

They have no authority over bitrate and number of sub-channels broadcast.

As jjeff noted, I'm OTA-only.

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post #16 of 20 Old 03-30-2012, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok i finally got to try my new panny on some other TV's. First i tried a flat screen LG CRT which is probably about 5 or more years old. There was not much difference. Still pulsing menus and menu boxes with wavy sides.

Then i tried a 2 or 3 year old Toshiba 1080P TV first using composite and the problem was basically gone. When i press function/menu button then scroll down to the 'others' tab a small window opens that offers 3 options and that smaller box would flicker pretty bad on CRT. With the 1080p TV as soon as i open 'others' that little box does one inital 'flick' as it opens and then stops. On the CRT's that box would just keep flicking, its like it got momemtum after the first flick and away it when flicking uncontrollably.

Then i tried HDMI to the new screen and it was perfect as far as i could see. No wavy edges on menu boxes, no menu pulsing and that little box would not even flick once. It just opened with out that inital little flick.

So i guess i must be the only one using these latest DVD recorders on a CRT! So i reckon my recorder has to be fine, but its something that it does not like with CRT's Or perhaps both the CRT's i have tried are not too good? Or maybe it is just a compatibility thing with menus and CRT's?

Normal picture is fine. it was just the menus. I really like this recorder. I feel that it just functions beautifully. I have not got into the recording aspect of the unit yet though.

I must check my EZ48 again too as i dont think that seemed as bad on the CRT's.
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post #17 of 20 Old 03-30-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

So i reckon my recorder has to be fine, but its something that it does not like with CRT's Or perhaps both the CRT's i have tried are not too good? Or maybe it is just a compatibility thing with menus and CRT's?

The standard NTSC signal is interlaced - it shows even and then odd scan lines in alternating fields. This causes a "buzzing" effect on any detail in the image that's only 1 scan line (i.e., pixel) high, since it's only being displayed in every other scan.

Most older equipment designed for CRTs used on-screen menus that had features thick enough to avoid this problem. That was done partly to counter the interlacing problems, and partly because CRT displays didn't have particularly great resolution and so equipment manufacturers had to make the menu features larger to be sure that they were usable with everyone's screens.

Current equipment that's designed for a modern world with much higher resolution, non-interlaced displays can cram a lot more stuff into its menus - but it often looks terrible or is too small to read on old standard-definition CRTs.
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post #18 of 20 Old 03-30-2012, 03:29 PM
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Well this doesn’t sound right. Although PAL interlaced should be a little worse than NTSC interlaced (due to a lower Hz) it shouldn’t be as bad as Cyclone82 is experiencing.

I had motionless menus running on NTSC CRTs since the late 80’s, my Yamaha LD player had still menus. Of course my current JVC SVHS decks and my Sony RDR-HX780 HDD/DVDr have similar menus and they look alright on a good 480 interlaced 60Hz CRT. Slight flickering (like all CRTs flicker with all motionless menus) but nothing bad. No bending or wavering. This could be some sort of sync issue that’s not showing up with regular video content.
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post #19 of 20 Old 03-30-2012, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Current equipment that's designed for a modern world with much higher resolution, non-interlaced displays can cram a lot more stuff into its menus - but it often looks terrible or is too small to read on old standard-definition CRTs.

Yep this is what i am thinking. These 2010/11 model DVD recorders are not made with CRTs in mind.

How ever my set top box which you think would be designed for CRT's with no digital tuner, would not have wobbly sides of the menu/channel info boxes. Maybe i should try the set top box on the other CRT. The set top box menus dont flicker from memory. They just have angled and wobbly sides.

As i said before, TV/video displays fine on CRT's, its only the menus. To me sounds like my level of menu prpblems could be the same as SuperEyes mentioned above. We may have different interpretations of what is 'really bad'. Its not extrememly bad or not watchable but it is obvious, and annoying and does not look right or normal.

I might hook up my 2004lsh LG DVD player and see what that is like. I dont remember seeing these issues with that but it may have been designed with CRT's still in mind then. Maybe panasonic did not consider CRTs at all when designing the menus for the current recorders.
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post #20 of 20 Old 03-31-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

The set top box menus dont flicker from memory. They just have angled and wobbly sides.

I have no doubt that Super Eye's earlier comment about a poor power supply is the culprit for that. It's a common CRT issue, and it occurs because there can be such a large difference in the current required to display a bright scan line vs. a dark one that it affects the power being delivered to the deflection yoke that moves the beam across the face of the tube.

Menus can be particularly problematic for this because they often have (a) consecutive groups of scan lines displayed entirely as full bright and full dark, and (b) vertical lines to make the resulting distortions a lot more obvious.
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