UPS or Surge Protector & Power Conditioner for Recorder - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 03-27-2012, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scott_111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have a Magnavox MDR-513 which currently is on surge suppressors with my other AV equipment. I’ve gotten a recommendation to place the 513 on a filtered UPS but after studying the UPS threads in this forum and elsewhere, I’ve found the recommendations about placing AV devices on battery backup UPS to be conflicting and quite confusing. I would also add that I live in an apartment in an area prone to power surges and severe electrical storms.

First of all, the AV equipment I have running is the following:

3 Tuner Moxi – 80 watts

Vizio VT420M – LCD TV - 160 watts

Comcast – DCH3200 – HD STB – 24 watts

Magnavox – MDR -513 – recorder – 33 watts

Panasonic – DMR – ES45VS – recorder – 29 watts

That is a total of 326 watts if everything is running at the same time, which could easily happen. If I happen to have my old MAC1700 amp/pre-amp/tuner running, that would add an additional 270 watts, or a total of 596 watts. The minimum wattage if everything is off or on stand-by would be around 90-95 watts since the Moxi is fully powered and obviously on 24x7.

This is where the confusing part comes in for me however. After studying the various UPS devices and brands, I settled on the Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD UPS which has pure sine wave, line interactive, AVR and EMI/RFI filters among other features that I would like to have. It also has 810w capacity which provides a little extra room for growth over my current max watts load. If anything, that device may even be a bit of overkill for my situation.

I became concerned when I found the following statement from APC in a thread in this forum however: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-992865.html “I understand your concern. As per inquiry, APC does not recommend to connect Audio-Video Equipment to a Back-UPS. For such equipment APC provides a different range of Products called as Audio-Video Solutions. The reason being that Back-UPS is designed specifically for IT equipments, and the Power generated by Back-UPS can in turn harm the sensitive equipments like projector. More over if an Audio-Video equipment gets damaged while being connected to a Back-UPS, then APC will not be liable for the damages caused.”

In other words, APC is recommending their “Audio Visual Solutions” products, which are power conditioners and not UPS devices (and which are also more expensive than UPS devices). Tripp-Lite and other manufacturers also make these devices, which I guess are basically surge protectors.

The basic questions I have regarding my situation are:

- Is the Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD UPS a risk in terms of possibly damaging my AV equipment as APC states or are they merely doing CYA as that thread seems to think they are?

- If APC *IS* correct in that statement and a UPS would in fact be a risk in my situation, what would others here recommend as a good surge protector and/or power conditioner solution for my situation?

- If the APC statement is NOT correct and a UPS would not be a risk for my equipment, is the Cyberpower CCP1350PFCLCD significant overkill for my situation? For example, do I need to spend the extra money that it costs to get the full sine wave capability that this UPS has? I thought that even though my devices technically don't require battery back-up as a computer would, having that added back-up capacity could help prevent problems with my Moxi (which is always on) or the recorders if they were in the process of recording when a power problem occurred. Would a smaller, less expensive UPS (or even a non-UPS solution) be adequate for my situation?

Regardless of what ever solution I end up with for my AV equipment, I plan to also get another Cyberpower CCP1350PFCLCD (or perhaps the next larger model) for my computer equipment, which has its own separate power requirements and for which I think the Cyberpower UPS would be well suited.

Thanks for any feedback, suggestions or help anyone can provide. I found several other threads in this forum which I thought CAME CLOSE to answering my questions, but none answered them completely. As I mentioned earlier, I am fairly well confused by all of this at this point.
Scott_111 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 03-28-2012, 01:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mike99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 45
I never heard of that before. Are they saying or implying that computers are not sensitive equipment?

I use an APC BE550G UPS on my PC and another on my Dish DVR & Panny DVDR. In fact I just looked & the box says:

Prevents damage & loss of:
Photo, music & video libraries
Internet modems & wireless routers
Digital video recorders
Computers & peripherals
Mike99 is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 03-28-2012, 03:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tomwil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

I never heard of that before. Are they saying or implying that computers are not sensitive equipment?

I think a PC power supply is more robust than an AV power supply, and can handle the typical square wave output and surges from a normal UPS. AV power supplies seem to be much more fragile, and either it goes dead, or is more likely to pass dangerous currents to other boards.

That which may be known of God is evident within man, for God has shown it to them, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
tomwil is offline  
post #4 of 14 Old 03-28-2012, 10:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

I think a PC power supply is more robust than an AV power supply, and can handle the typical square wave output and surges from a normal UPS. AV power supplies seem to be much more fragile, and either it goes dead, or is more likely to pass dangerous currents to other boards.

That's my take on it as well. The Back-UPS is not a pure sine wave generator, and it suitable for PC type applications, but not recommended for A/V applications. The Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD should be perfect for what he is trying to do.

Note: I use Back-UPS devices for all of my equipment, and while the DVD recorders and DirecTV receivers don't seem to mind, and go on working properly, recording and so on, my television HATES the power that the it gets. I am thinking of getting a pure sine wave UPS just for the televison.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 03-28-2012, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scott_111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

That's my take on it as well. The Back-UPS is not a pure sine wave generator, and it suitable for PC type applications, but not recommended for A/V applications. The Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD should be perfect for what he is trying to do.

Note: I use Back-UPS devices for all of my equipment, and while the DVD recorders and DirecTV receivers don't seem to mind, and go on working properly, recording and so on, my television HATES the power that the it gets. I am thinking of getting a pure sine wave UPS just for the televison.

Thanks for all of the feedback. I had also figured that, as Church AV Guy said, that the CP1350PFCLCD was the perfect solution to my situation but then I just received the following note from Cyberpower (to whom I had asked the same question basically as I asked in my original post in this thread):

"There wouldn't be any reason why a UPS like this would cause damage to any kind of equipment. I think this would be a fine unit for your application.

A power conditioner would keep the voltage very steady at 120, and focus on keeping out line noisewhich this unit would not necessarily do.

But this unit would be a great battery backup for your equipment."

It seems to me that he is saying that the Cyperpower UPS is great for what would probably be my lowest priority, i.e. providing battery back-up but not so hot at what would be my highest priority, i.e. keeping the voltage steady at 120 and focusing at keeping out line noise. Prior to receiving that message, I had assumed that the CP1350 would be just as effective at keeping voltage constant and filtering out line noise as a power conditioner would but Cyberpower seems to be saying that's not the case.

By the way, I took a look at several power conditioners, two of which I had seen recommended elsewhere in this forum. The two that I had seen in this forum are the APC H15BLK Power Conditioner, the Panamax M5400-PM 11-Outlet Home Theater Power Conditioner, and the third is the Belkin PureAV PF30 Home Theater Power Console.

The price range is considerable, ranging from $92.98 for the Belkin on Amazon, $265 there for the APC H15 and $730 for the Panamax M5400. That is quite a price differential among 3 items which as far as I can see do basically the same thing.

An hour ago I was ready to place my order for the Cyperpower box but after receiving the above message from their customer service, I'm wondering if they just managed to "unsell" their product in my case. Furthermore, if a power conditioner really is the way to go, I am wondering if the Belkin would be adequate for my needs or whether I should go to the APC unit (which of course is about $100 more than the Cyberpower CP1350). The Panamax is simply way out of consideration pricewise for me.

As I mentioned previously, I was on the verge of placing the order for the Cyperpower box but now, in spite of all of the helpful responses I have received in this thread, I am now confused once again.
Scott_111 is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 12:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Cyclone82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Could you please expalin what a UPS means? Being a non US resident i only know UPS as a rip off shipping company. I think UPS in regards to power products may be what i call a power board or double adaptor? Eg the one lead from the AC mains wall plate to a board that has 2 or more outlets? I have one of those with a surge protector in it, because i think thats what fried my old set top box (having no surge protector) My new pannys will get babied now though and even if there is a storm kilometers away, i will unplug them. I need to look into the wattage rating of my outlets too. Have not really considred how many devices i can hook up to one wall plate. Its becomming a concern as i buy more AV gear but am limited on outlets. Dont want to overload anything.
Cyclone82 is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 03:13 AM
Member
 
MACINTN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
UPS= Uninterruptable Power Supply
MACINTN is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 05:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
dare2be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
IOW, Battery Backup

I've never had issues with my standard Cyberpower or APC backup units feeding my mag/philips machines.

Question, would the square wave problem apply to just the battery outlets, or the surge outlets as well?
dare2be is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 01:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 9,778
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

....I've never had issues with my standard Cyberpower or APC backup units feeding my mag/philips machines.

Question, would the square wave problem apply to just the battery outlets, or the surge outlets as well?

Same here and I've never had issues with my computer grade USPs. The square wave would only be on the battery outlets and then only during a power outage/brown out. Note some UPSs do a daily test to check the battery in which case that would also subject whatever was plugged into the battery outlets to a short duration square wave.
jjeff is online now  
post #10 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 02:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_111 View Post

...I just received the following note from Cyberpower (to whom I had asked the same question basically as I asked in my original post in this thread):

Quote:


"There wouldn't be any reason why a UPS like this would cause damage to any kind of equipment. I think this would be a fine unit for your application.

A power conditioner would keep the voltage very steady at 120, and focus on keeping out line noisewhich this unit would not necessarily do.

But this unit would be a great battery backup for your equipment."

It seems to me that he is saying that the Cyperpower UPS is great for what would probably be my lowest priority, i.e. providing battery back-up but not so hot at what would be my highest priority, i.e. keeping the voltage steady at 120 and focusing at keeping out line noise.
.
.
.

You are correct in that a UPS is a battery backup in case of a power failure, but the term UPS does not imply power filtering. That said, all of the UPSes that I have also have a built filter. Most modern UPSes have some filtering on the power, but not all, and it may not be very aggressive filtering. The dedicated power line filters DO have aggressive filtering, but have no battery backup.

You said, in your original message:
Quote:


I have a Magnavox MDR-513 which currently is on surge suppressors with my other AV equipment. I've gotten a recommendation to place the 513 on a filtered UPS...

I assumed that the surge suppressor was already cleaning the power, so all you wanted was a battery backup device. For that purpose, the Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD if fine, and will not damage your equipment. If you are satisfied with your surge suppressor, you can use them together.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 03-29-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scott_111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

You are correct in that a UPS is a battery backup in case of a power failure, but the term UPS does not imply power filtering. That said, all of the UPSes that I have also have a built filter. Most modern UPSes have some filtering on the power, but not all, and it may not be very aggressive filtering. The dedicated power line filters DO have aggressive filtering, but have no battery backup.

You said, in your original message: “ I have a Magnavox MDR-513 which currently is on surge suppressors with my other AV equipment.”

I assumed that the surge suppressor was already cleaning the power, so all you wanted was a battery backup device. For that purpose, the Cyberpower CP1350PFCLCD if fine, and will not damage your equipment. If you are satisfied with your surge suppressor, you can use them together.

I can see now where my original statement was confusing. Sorry about that. I should have gone back an edited it earlier. What I meant by it was that my AV and computer equipment is currently protected by $30 Tripp-Lite MOV devices . They of course only provide *SOME* protection but not a full measure of protection (as I have been finding out lately). I feel now that I need to provide something more sophisticated to give me better protection.

In digging into all of this, I have just discovered that APC has just come out with a new line of products called the "J" series (i.e. J25B, J35B, etc). These appear to combine the characteristics of H10's or H15s, etc along with a battery backup within the same unit. The unit is the size of a set top box, even with the battery (which is not lead acid and which is contained within the same unit).

The smallest (and least expensive) unit (J25, 825 watts) will run 1 hr, 38 mins at 100w for example, up to 4 min at 800w. Surge protection is only 894 joules however.

Update: I decided to go ahead and solve the problem by ordering an APC H10 for the AV equipment *AND* the Cyberpower CP1350FPC for my computer equipment. That way, after I get them all here and see how they all work out (and get a better idea of what my needs really are), I can always get a second Cyberpower box to add to the AV equipment.

Thanks for all of your input!
Scott_111 is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 03-31-2012, 03:01 PM
Member
 
Harry Kerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I think the concern is about the very new devices, power supllies that depend upon a "true" sinewave as opposed to a stepped wave. There are confirmed reports of problems for the latest MAC's or other devices (the latest high-end TV's) that conform to the latest EnergyStar specs (EnergyStar 5?). When steeped wave UPS goes into battery power, the MAC's either shut down or run risk of damage if allowed to stay on battery. The same has been posted in other forums about the latest HDTV and hearing a loud whistling noise or even "pops" when on stepped wave battery UPS, and eventual damage. APC suggests its Smart line of UPS for such equipment. I'm not saying I do, just what APC says.

Further, HP has on its website at least TWO models of its PC's that is says MUST use a "true" sinewave UPS and that stepped waves cause problems, will shut down, or may even damage the PC, and this has been confirmed by HP to have occurred to consumers of, so far, TWO if its models. HP then lists several other models that MAY also be at risk if a stepped wave UPS is used. That is just the start, there is more out there regarding this from other manufactures including the UPS makers.

I have seen posts on other forums of people who have spoken with Apple CS and were told that the problem of the computer shutting down when switch to battery was that it was a stepped wave UPS and that it needed a "true" sine wave UPS. Those posters reported SUCCESS when they changed out to a "true" sine wave UPS. In fact, Amazon has such posts like this, as well.

OK, I think what we can take away from this is that if you have older equipment that is not to the Energystar 5 spec, you would PROBABLY (I take no responsibility for this, just sharing and insight) be OK using the less expensive stepped wave as these power supplies don't depend upon "true" sine wave for the power supply to meet lower power consumption (being "green") or to function properly and safely without risk of damage. That is a whole lot of legacy electronics that can still seem to use the stepped wave.

However, if it is a VERY recent PC or MAC or VERY recent HDTV, and just about ANY audio equipment such as an A/V, then we really ought to use an UPS with "true" sinewave and not risk damaging your new stuff as these power supplies do depend upon the "true" sine-wave for proper power supply to the device for the sake of being GREEN.

I have a number of stepped sine wave UPS for my legacy, but I am getting the CyberPower for my A/V. This is all stuff I got from researching this on the net very recently. It is real.
Harry Kerry is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 03-31-2012, 03:43 PM
Member
 
Harry Kerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_111 View Post

I can see now where my original statement was confusing. Sorry about that. I should have gone back an edited it earlier. What I meant by it was that my AV and computer equipment is currently protected by $30 Tripp-Lite MOV devices . They of course only provide *SOME* protection but not a full measure of protection (as I have been finding out lately). I feel now that I need to provide something more sophisticated to give me better protection.

In digging into all of this, I have just discovered that APC has just come out with a new line of products called the "J" series (i.e. J25B, J35B, etc). These appear to combine the characteristics of H10's or H15s, etc along with a battery backup within the same unit. The unit is the size of a set top box, even with the battery (which is not lead acid and which is contained within the same unit).

The smallest (and least expensive) unit (J25, 825 watts) will run 1 hr, 38 mins at 100w for example, up to 4 min at 800w. Surge protection is only 894 joules however.

Update: I decided to go ahead and solve the problem by ordering an APC H10 for the AV equipment *AND* the Cyberpower CP1350FPC for my computer equipment. That way, after I get them all here and see how they all work out (and get a better idea of what my needs really are), I can always get a second Cyberpower box to add to the AV equipment.

Thanks for all of your input!

It seems a WISE decision on your part. What really bothers me is that APC's "J" models that are MARKETED specifically for AV home entertainment devices still use the stepped approximate wave that we know will either cause the connected component to either SHUT DOWN of even DAMAGE the connected device--if meeting new energy standards--when switched to battery, and we must presume the consumer has some very recent equipment for the latest EnergyStar at the least, but even a legacy A/V receiver isn't going to like stepped wave if on battery for more than too long.

This "J" series product is so new that no reviews on Amazon, yet. It's clear that APC was only concerned about a PRICE POINT and not REALLY trying to save consumer's equipment (more and more new stuff and many more for years to come are going to depend upon "ture" sine wave for the new energy standards), as the product is advertised to do for even the most recent devices. This is what happens when Marketing and Cost Analysts control a company that is supposed to produce a high quality, expensive piece of equipment that we are to rely upon to save our investments in expensive AV equipment.
Harry Kerry is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 04-01-2012, 08:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mike99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 45
I do like the idea of a true sine wave UPS. I bought my APC BE550G UPS not too long ago & was not expecting a true sine wave, but I did not expect a problem either. In fact my Dish DVR says I can use a UPS and does not say one way or the other about a true sine wave.

At least for my PC & monitor the APC BE550G has worked during a couple short power fluctuations. I have a second UPS for the Dish DVR, Panny DVDR & HDTV but have only experienced a split second power cutout with it so I cannot tell how it will work during a long outage. But if I'm home & recording something I'd probably turn off the TV in order to save UPS battery time for the DVR.

Is there an inexpensive filter that will help round off a square wave coming out of an older UPS?
Mike99 is offline  
Reply DVD Recorders (Standard Def)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off