Is the High Speed Dub on the DMR-E95 the only lossless dub speed? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 07-05-2012, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I used a Panasonic DMR-E95 to record the back to back "A Capital Fourth" from PBS last night. This was a 90 minute program that was repeated immediately after the conclusion of the live broadcast. I hate severe weather crawls which started about 2/3 into the program and continued into the first half of the rebroadcast. Since I recorded both programs as one 3 hour program to the HDD, I decided to "Shorten" that recording starting just before the first crawl on the first program to that same point in the 2nd program. That got rid of all the weather crawls by cutting out that 90 minute segment. The program now plays fairly smoothly through that 90 minute deletion. But I know from previous experience it won't be so smooth on the DVD if I do a high speed dub. My guess is that the HDD can't jump fast enough through that 90 minute deletion at 4X speed?

I am thinking about doing this dub at the SP speed because I used the SP speed when recording it to the HDD. But I suspect I will lose quality because it will probably re-encode during the dub.

So my question is: Does anybody know if the "High Speed" dub is the only lossless way to dub from the HDD to a DVD-R or a DVD-RAM? It would be nice if Panasonic used a direct digital dub between the HDD and a DVD-R or DVD-RAM if you selected the same dub speed as was used when it was recorded to the HDD. I think at a 1X speed the transition point where the 90 minutes of the program was deleted should be about as smooth as watching that program play to the TV?

If I will lose picture quality I will probably use the "high speed" dub speed and tolerate the rough transition from the 1st broadcast to the 2nd broadcast.

Dave
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post #2 of 16 Old 07-05-2012, 07:47 PM
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Have you tried dubbing using playlists? You can still dub in high speed. It's been awhile for me, but if you create a playlist constructed of both segments skipping the hard edit point made from the ''shorten segment'' cut-and it's been advised here by longtime Panny users to avoid using shorten/seg, and use either playlist first and the ''divide'' option second, you may be able to escape that freeze pausing that occurs when playing back a dubbed to disc title.  

The only other option I can think of is importing the RAM disc to pc for editing there, or using a second Panny to playback the RAM into the E95 and recording the whole thing in real time all over again.

 

Edit-I forgot, using 'Divide' would have created separate titles, which is not what you wanted. You did it right. As I said, it's been awhile since I've had a Panny hdd model to play with. My EH85 died nearly 2 years ago, and I miss it dearly.


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post #3 of 16 Old 07-05-2012, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

Have you tried dubbing using playlists? You can still dub in high speed. It's been awhile for me, but if you create a playlist constructed of both segments skipping the hard edit point made from the ''shorten segment'' cut-and it's been advised here by longtime Panny users to avoid using shorten/seg, and use either playlist first and the ''divide'' option second, you may be able to escape that freeze pausing that occurs when playing back a dubbed to disc title.  
The only other option I can think of is importing the RAM disc to pc for editing there, or using a second Panny to playback the RAM into the E95 and recording the whole thing in real time all over again.

Edit-I forgot, using 'Divide' would have created separate titles, which is not what you wanted. You did it right. As I said, it's been awhile since I've had a Panny hdd model to play with. My EH85 died nearly 2 years ago, and I miss it dearly.
I have used playlist dubbing once or twice a long time ago and all I remember is that I wasn't very happy with the results? I don't remember the details of why I was unhappy? Since I have already done the "Shorten" edit, I think using the playlist dub would be more messy than using the high speed dub at this point? But I may try it with a DVD-RAM?

I was hoping somebody with experience on these old machines would tell me a SP dub would be lossless but I suspect that is not true.

I don't have any computer editing software and no way to get a DVD-RAM into my computer. I probably could do a HS dub to a DVD-RAM and then high speed dub that DVD-RAM back into the HDD and edit out the still frames at the transition point and then HS dub back to a DVD-R? That may make the transition smoother since the HDD only has to jump a few frames now? That is an interesting concept that I would have never thought about. Some how I don't think it will work but it is worth a try.

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post #4 of 16 Old 07-05-2012, 08:55 PM
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I'd still try doing a playlist dub first-you can still snip out the few seconds before and after the shorten point, and see if you like the results. It will be a lossless hi-speed dub, and you can quickly see if the more involved procedure you outlined.


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post #5 of 16 Old 07-06-2012, 07:59 AM
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Yes the only lossless dub is HS but as you've found HS can also show a slight pause at edit points that say a realtime SP copy will smooth over. Personally I just live with the slight pauses because I don't want to reencode but it's a personal choice.
AFA playlists, believe it or not I never use them(ya I know some people love Panasonics just for the 99 capacity playlist feature) but for my use I haven't needed them. Someone like Luke is sure to know if playlists will do what you want smile.gif
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post #6 of 16 Old 07-07-2012, 10:33 AM
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Yes, the only lossless copy mode is HS. Yes, you can ceratinly dub your program in HS mode to the optical disk using HS mode and playlists, BUT, it appears that you have already deleted the content from the title, so the avantage of using playlists will be lost (extensive editing without altering the title, so any mistakes or changes won't be "permanent" but just in the playlist).

At this point, I would suggest you make an SP and a HS copy and see which one you like the best. media is $0.30 or less per disk, so it's hardly a HUGE investiment. Not being at all acquainted with the E95, I can only suggest that you do a bit of experimenting.

Oh, and one other thiing. I too HATE the bugs, snipes, and crawls that appear on the screen, ESPECIALLY when I am recording. I also try to get another copy without them if possible.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #7 of 16 Old 07-07-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

Yes, the only lossless copy mode is HS. Yes, you can certainly dub your program in HS mode to the optical disk using HS mode and playlists, BUT, it appears that you have already deleted the content from the title, so the advantage of using playlists will be lost (extensive editing without altering the title, so any mistakes or changes won't be "permanent" but just in the playlist).
At this point, I would suggest you make an SP and a HS copy and see which one you like the best. media is $0.30 or less per disk, so it's hardly a HUGE investment. Not being at all acquainted with the E95, I can only suggest that you do a bit of experimenting.
Oh, and one other thing. I too HATE the bugs, snipes, and crawls that appear on the screen, ESPECIALLY when I am recording. I also try to get another copy without them if possible.
Yes, the content is already gone so I figured it was too late to do the "Playlist". I do plan on experimenting a little with a SP and High Speed copy's to DVD-RAM and maybe dub back to the HDD from the HS copy and see if I can smooth out the probable hiccup at the edit point and then make another HS copy to another DVD-RAM. Then choose which one is the keeper. This is more about educating me than it is about saving a mediocre Capitol Fourth concert (I think I got the right "Capitol" now in this post?
Also now I am transferring a fantastic 1994 Capitol Fourth from Hi-8 tape with PCM stereo sound that I recorded 18 years ago. That tape had one head clog about 2/3rds through the program which cleared itself after about 8 seconds so I let it finish and kept the HDD running while I rewound the tape past the clog point and started the tape playing again. I did this because I didn't want that DVD in 2 titles. This time the tape played fine so when it finished the 2nd time I did a "Shorten" edit and this edit plays back almost perfectly but with the deleted 40 minutes on the HDD, I know the HS copy to RAM isn't going to be so smooth. So I want to learn on this 2012 concert so I can apply my knowledge to that fantastic 1994 concert. 1994 was before the hated "TPT2" BUG and back when they performed real music using real talent. Erich Kunzel was still alive and live TV concerts were wonderful. Todays concerts use better technology but the talent and content have gone into the dumper. Every singer has to sing only the songs they have written because of the royalty situation. Todays singers aren't very good singers and they are lousy song writers. I am so glad I started recording these concerts back in the 80's while content and talent were king.

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post #8 of 16 Old 07-07-2012, 09:31 PM
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None of this has been confirmed, but the way I see it is, the various editing methods available on the Panasonic DVD recorders are all about equal. The only advantage of using playlists is there is no change to the tltle (actual recording) so any errors or changes are "non-binding" and not permanent.

The machine SAYS its edits are frame accurate, but they aren't. The frame you select as the last frame of a segment is exactly where the content plays to, but the frame you select as the start of the next segment is not (usually). While it tries to give this to you, the machine is literally LOST until it sees the next iframe. If you are very lucky, you can cut on an iframe, and it is really seamless, otherwise there is a small glitch, maybe up to a half a second, while the recorder waits for the next iframe. That's why I always try to make my cuts on black frames, so the glitch is unnoticeable. If these machines had two way encoders instead of just one way encoders, it could POSSIBLY, by reading backwards, insert an iframe at the precise edit point, but they don't have one, so we are stuck with what we get. {shrug}. It is an architectural limitation of the machine.

Luke

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post #9 of 16 Old 08-01-2012, 02:00 PM
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I do plan on experimenting a little with a SP and High Speed copy's to DVD-RAM and maybe dub back to the HDD from the HS copy and see if I can smooth out the probable hiccup at the edit point and then make another HS copy to another DVD-RAM. Then choose which one is the keeper. This is more about educating me...

Dave,

How did your experiments go? Were you able to make a copy without a hiccup at the edit point?

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #10 of 16 Old 08-01-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

Dave,
How did your experiments go? Were you able to make a copy without a hiccup at the edit point?

It's been a crazy 2 weeks for me. My riding mower broke for the final time after 22 years, about a month ago. My neighbors are very concerned with my foot high weeds in my yard. Two weeks ago I bought a 50" Toro, Zero Turning Radius mower that the dealer didn't have in stock but they were in the local warehouse. The warehouse stock vanished and after another 2 weeks I still don't have the mower that I paid for by check. That was the dumbest thing I have done recently because they have my money and I have a receipt. I should have used a credit card but at the time I had absolutely no concern about them not delivering when they said they would. Their showroom was packed with expensive commercial and residential machines and customers were everywhere. If they are having financial problems I may be out over $3000? I call every day for an update and today's update said maybe Friday? The weather has been ugly here in MN for over a month now and all I have gotten done was change oil in my minivan and ATV. With all this stress I just haven't gotten into anything very complicated.
I think jjeff has gotten me straightened out about what I want to do by his using PM's but I haven't tried his expert advice. I do know that what I was planning on doing with DVD-RAM's isn't going to work. He has convinced me that I have to use FR recording to the HDD in 2 sessions in order to use that 400MB that Panasonic won't let us use on DVD-R's. That 400mb should be enough to allow me to record my 2 hour, 15 minute concert at full D1 resolution on 1 DVD-R, but I haven't tried it yet.
I have been too worried about losing $3000 and not getting my new mower to try anything this senior mind may have trouble understanding. If my mower comes Friday I will give it a shot next week. Sorry about being so slow in implementing everyones expert advice. I will update this thread when I know something new.

Dave
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post #11 of 16 Old 08-01-2012, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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This is what I am waiting for:


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post #12 of 16 Old 08-01-2012, 04:41 PM
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I wasn't hounding you, just curious. I fully understand that there are A LOT of things more important than DVD recording. (Did I really just say that?biggrin.gif)

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #13 of 16 Old 08-02-2012, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't feel hounded. I appreciate your curiosity Luke. Great news: my new mower will be delivered tomorrow noon. Cutting hay will be #1 on my priority list.

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post #14 of 16 Old 08-02-2012, 04:11 PM
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Do they make a Vacuum cleaner in that configuration?biggrin.gif The wife wants to know...

Good news about you mower though. I hope it is everything you want!

I also hope you can get HS dubbing to work the way you want/need as well.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #15 of 16 Old 08-03-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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They make a bagger for it. Now if you can figure out some kind of dust filter to surround the bags you may have something? It will turn on a dime but it doesn't do well under furniture. I sure does mow grass. I made hay today and burned about 3 gallons of gas mowing my 2.5 acres. By the time I finished mowing I was getting so good on the levers that I only had to think what I wanted it to do next and it did it. I definitely got the right machine.

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post #16 of 16 Old 08-06-2012, 09:58 AM
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I definitely got the right machine.

I'm glad for you. Such a purchase can be really good, or really bad, or any place in between. I'm glad it has worked out for you.

Now, about that consumer model riding vacuum cleaner...biggrin.gif

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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