Intelligent Scene Chaptering - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-05-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Intelligent Scene Chaptering

Hello,
I am in search of a DVD Recorder that can automatically create chapter markers based on changes in the video or audio (auto scene detection). I plan to transfer analog video tapes to DVD and I would like the DVD to have chapter markers at noticeable scene changes. I understand that the Sony RDR-HX715 has "Intelligent Scene Chaptering" but I can't find any evidence that these chapter markers end up on the final DVD. It seems that they may only be recorded on the HDD (to be lost when the content is burned to a DVD).

I purchased an older (but never used) Polaroid DRA-01601A because of the YesDVD feature that was included on these. So far, I have had problems with the YesDVDs that I have burned. They seem to lock up the Apple DVD Players and they exhibit glitches every three or four minutes in my Sony set-top DVD Player. I used Verbatim DVD-Rs for these first several test DVDs. I will test another type of DVD-R to see if that has anything to do with it. Unfortunately, I doubt it is a media problem but I will test again to be sure. The other problem with this Polaroid model is that I can create a normal DVD (rather than a YesDVD) but there is no finalization process. The resulting DVD can only be played on that specific Polaroid unit. That will not work for me.

I have read that some Pioneer units have something similar to Sony's "Intelligent Scene Chaptering."

Does anyone know of a high quality DVD Recorder that has the following features:
1. Region Code 1 (or multi region)
2. S-Video inputs and outputs
3. Some sort of "intelligent" auto chaptering based on scene changes that will be burned to the final DVD for analog sources
4. I would prefer to do this "on the fly" direct to DVD without recording to an internal HDD first (if possible)

If you know of any make/model that can do these things, please let me know.

It seems that Sony removed this "intelligent scene chaptering" for later DVD Recorders.

Thank you very much for your help! I can't believe it is so hard to find these features in this day and age.

Chris Ratchford
ChrisRatchford is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-05-2014, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 9,925
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Panasonics do not have this feature and never have. If the Sony HDD model recorded those chapters to the HDD it would be highly likely the chapter marks would carry over to DVD with a HS copy, not a realtime copy. I doubt you'll find a model that does this direct to DVD but I could be wrong. Again I mainly know about Panasonics and most HDD models don't automatically create any chapters at all, the international models as well as non-hdd models have a option to create chapters ~ every 5 minutes but it's time based, not scene based.
jjeff is offline  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
wajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 142
All 9 generations of Philips/Magnavox HDD DVDRs have six settings for Auto Chapter marking, from Off to 60-min. intervals. These can be auto-set when recording to the HDD or to a DVD. A chapter mark can also be set manually (Add Chapter), and one is automatically set at every Scene Delete All chapter marks are transferred in high-speed dubbing from HDD to a DVD. Real-time dubbing sets new chapter marks according to the auto-chapter setting the user selects.

PHILIPS HD DVRs | MAG/PHILIPS SD DVDRs* | DVDR/DVR COMPARISONS | POST-DVDR OPTIONS
*Due to the AVS SW change in June 2014, most but not all links in this thread will work if you're not logged in. If you are logged in, links should work if your User CP > Edit Options > Number of Posts to Show per Page is set to 30, the default.
wajo is offline  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisRatchford View Post
I am in search of a DVD Recorder that can automatically create chapter markers based on changes in the video or audio (auto scene detection). I plan to transfer analog video tapes to DVD and I would like the DVD to have chapter markers at noticeable scene changes.

Few dvd recorders ever sold had this as any sort of accurate reliable feature the way you're hoping for: when activated, it usually litters the recording with random chapter marks, of which perhaps 1 in 10 land where you'd actually want one. Because of this unreliability, the feature was rarely implemented in DVD-only recorders (its easier to correct the mistakes on an HDD). New DVD recorders have now completely vanished from North American stores, aside from the remaining Magnavox DVD/HDD models, which do not have the auto-scene-detect feature (they can only place "automatic" chapter marks at various manually-set intervals).

I have found the Sony and Pioneer auto-scene-detect systems disappointing at best. In a two hour tape dub, I can end up with two chapter marks in the first 90 mins and 25 closely-spaced useless chapter marks in the last 30mins. It takes more work to undo these automatic bad chapters than to just manually zip thru the recording and place chapter marks exactly where I want in the first place. You can do this manual marking with every DVD/HDD recorder, including the current Magnavox units and the import Panasonic EH59.

You dub your tapes to the hard drive first, which can hold at least 60 hours at the SP speed. After your tapes are captured to the HDD, it takes only minutes to speed-search the dub and insert chapter marks precisely where you want. While you're at it, you can also edit out bad spots, commercials, blank footage, etc (you'll get a chapter mark at each edit point). Once edited, you can high-speed copy the tape dub to a DVD-R in approx 12 minutes, and finalize it (the chapter marks do carry over intact). Making extra backup copies takes the same 12 minutes for each dvd.

The Polaroid with YesDVD software was a problem unit that created bad/incompatible dvds for some people: those problems get worse as the recorder ages (its quite an old model now). Depending on the YesDVD version, it does do the scene-detect trick better than Sony-Pioneer, but at the cost of glitch-ridden DVDs. If you have more than 50 tapes to dub, I'd strongly recommend investing in a modern DVD/HDD model like the Magnavox MDR533 or Panasonic EH59 before they disappear from the market. You can resell it on eBay after you finish the dubs, getting 60%-70% of your money back.

There is no magic bullet system that makes unattended, completely automated and perfect DVD dubs from VHS with accurate scene chaptering and menus. VHS dubbing is time-consuming manual work, there is no way around it, unless you can be happy with a straight dub to DVD with no customization at all (many people choose to accept this rather than deal with the effort to customize hundreds of dubs). Still, if you opt for the DVD/HDD recorder, you can quickly develop a workflow that goes faster than you'd expect: the 12 minutes extra to dub each edited DVD is a small tradeoff once you get into a daily rhythm.

Last edited by CitiBear; 08-05-2014 at 07:29 PM.
CitiBear is offline  
Old 08-05-2014, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post
Few dvd recorders ever sold had this as any sort of accurate reliable feature the way you're hoping for: when activated, it usually litters the recording with random chapter marks, of which perhaps 1 in 10 land where you'd actually want one. Because of this unreliability, the feature was rarely implemented in DVD-only recorders (its easier to correct the mistakes on an HDD). New DVD recorders have now completely vanished from North American stores, aside from the remaining Magnavox DVD/HDD models, which do not have the auto-scene-detect feature (they can only place "automatic" chapter marks at various manually-set intervals).

I have found the Sony and Pioneer auto-scene-detect systems disappointing at best. In a two hour tape dub, I can end up with two chapter marks in the first 90 mins and 25 closely-spaced useless chapter marks in the last 30mins. It takes more work to undo these automatic bad chapters than to just manually zip thru the recording and place chapter marks exactly where I want in the first place. You can do this manual marking with every DVD/HDD recorder, including the current Magnavox units and the import Panasonic EH59.

You dub your tapes to the hard drive first, which can hold at least 60 hours at the SP speed. After your tapes are captured to the HDD, it takes only minutes to speed-search the dub and insert chapter marks precisely where you want. While you're at it, you can also edit out bad spots, commercials, blank footage, etc (you'll get a chapter mark at each edit point). Once edited, you can high-speed copy the tape dub to a DVD-R in approx 12 minutes, and finalize it (the chapter marks do carry over intact). Making extra backup copies takes the same 12 minutes for each dvd.

The Polaroid with YesDVD software was a problem unit that created bad/incompatible dvds for some people: those problems get worse as the recorder ages (its quite an old model now). Depending on the YesDVD version, it does do the scene-detect trick better than Sony-Pioneer, but at the cost of glitch-ridden DVDs. If you have more than 50 tapes to dub, I'd strongly recommend investing in a modern DVD/HDD model like the Magnavox MDR533 or Panasonic EH59 before they disappear from the market. You can resell it on eBay after you finish the dubs, getting 60%-70% of your money back.

There is no magic bullet system that makes unattended, completely automated and perfect DVD dubs from VHS with accurate scene chaptering and menus. VHS dubbing is time-consuming manual work, there is no way around it, unless you can be happy with a straight dub to DVD with no customization at all (many people choose to accept this rather than deal with the effort to customize hundreds of dubs). Still, if you opt for the DVD/HDD recorder, you can quickly develop a workflow that goes faster than you'd expect: the 12 minutes extra to dub each edited DVD is a small tradeoff once you get into a daily rhythm.
CitiBear,
Thank you for the detailed and informative post. I may do a couple more tests with my Polaroid with DVD+R media. I have read that YesDVD does not work well with -R media but I will proceed with caution. If there are still glitches and freezes, I will forget that unit and move on to something else. Thank you for the Panasonic and Magnavox recommendations. Which of those has a more polished menu look when the DVD has been finalized?

I also have a Panasonic DMR-E100H but haven't used it yet. I was really hoping to figure out an "auto scene detection" solution but it sounds like I should probably give up on that dream. Have you had any experience with the DMR-E100H? If so, what are the key benefits of the two models you recommended as compared to the E100H? The eBay prices for the EH59 seem to be a lot more than the Magnavox MDR533. Do you prefer one of those over another and why?

Thanks again for the detailed information!
Chris
ChrisRatchford is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 12:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I am guessing from your posts that you are hoping to acquire a decent second-hand recorder at a bargain price. This is not as easy now as it once was: as the choice of new machines has dwindled down to nothing, people who still need one panic and drive the eBay prices up. Also, DVD recorders in general do not age nearly as well as a VCR or other older electronics: they typically offer a three year window of heavy use before they begin having problems. Few last more than six years in full working order (the exception being Panasonic which can often be revived). So many of the "affordable" used recorders aren't in the greatest shape.

I don't have personal experience with the Panasonic DMR-E100H, but I am sure jjeff will chime in to assist you on that model. I do know its one of the earlier DVD/HDD models, perhaps ten years old now. Assuming it still functions properly, there shouldn't be a huge difference in basic features from the later Panasonic and Magnavox models.

The advantage of Panasonic over Magnavox is their elaborate "memory system"- a Panasonic can store the templates for up to 30 simultaneous dvd projects you might be working on. This is incredibly useful when dubbing loads of tapes: after they are on the HDD, you can relax and flip between editing dozens of them at your leisure. Each template stores the title names, edit points, menu thumbnails and chapter markers for each potential dvd: when you feel one is ready to burn, push a button and 12 minutes later out it pops exactly the way it looks in the template.

The Magnavox, Sony and Pioneer DVD/HDD recorders can only store the template for one dvd project at a time. You can dub a great many tapes to their HDDs, like you can with Panasonic, but you can only set up one DVD at a time. This is workable (and indeed standard with 9 out of 10 such recorders), but if you can get your Panasonic to work its extra memory slots are very convenient.

Re the finalized menus: I think the Panasonic and Magnavox are comparable. The Panasonic default is six videos per menu page, with the title names and thumbnail images on a blue background. Magnavox is similar but fewer videos per menu page, with larger title text and thumbnail images. (Some of the early Panasonic models did not create thumbnail images for their menus, only text names: perhaps jjeff can confirm whether your E100H does both.)

One thing I truly detest about the Magnavox is its demented, backwards method of choosing thumbnail images for dvd menus. On every other DVD/HDD recorder ever made, you simply choose the thumbnail image for each recording on the HDD directly on the HDD- your chosen thumbnail frame then becomes the image displayed in the HDD navigator, and it carries over automatically to the finalized DVD.

Not so with the Magnavox: it offers NO custom choice of thumbnails on the HDD recordings (instead it stupidly insists on the first video frame of the recording). The only chance you get to change the thumbnails is AFTER you copy the videos from HDD to a DVD, but BEFORE you finalize it. This can be very tricky to remember, resulting in a DVD with awful-looking menus if you forget the extra step. Of course you can make another dvd copy and remember to customize the thumbnails for it, but that first one ends up wasted. Not the most logical interface, but unfortunately there isn't any other choice in a new recorder with a warranty. Unbeatable value for the price, however, and WalMarts return/exchange policy is very generous.

Last edited by CitiBear; 08-06-2014 at 12:53 AM.
CitiBear is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 06:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 9,925
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 98
The E100H is a very old Panasonic, '03 to be precise and it has NO thumbnails, only a line of text for each title. Also being older than '05 it doesn't have full D1 resolution LP, full resolution only goes through SP, longer than that is 1/2 D1 like almost every DVDR including the Magnavoxes, but not Pioneers. The E100H also only records to -R and RAM discs.
Newer Panasonics show 6 thumbnails unfinalized and 8 on a finalized disc, with HDD Panasonics you can chose from 8 background colors, non HDD Panasonics only have blue.
I'm thinking a PC may be the OPs best choice, they probably have tons of choices for thumbnails and I'd think they might have the auto-chapter options and if so it probably works better than something a DVDR may offer.
jjeff is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CitiBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I'm thinking a PC may be the OPs best choice, they probably have tons of choices for thumbnails and I'd think they might have the auto-chapter options and if so it probably works better than something a DVDR may offer.

It can be a tough decision, largely determined by the number of tapes involved, your $ budget, how much time you can realistically devote to the task, and how comfortable you are (or can get) with the various PC utilities required for each part of the process. In some ways, digital video/HDTV is spinning our world backwards ala the ending of "Superman"- instead of ever-better and ever-easier-to-use consumer video recorders and PC options, things have gotten progressively worse over the past decade. Standalone recorders have all but dried up, and the selection of PC capture accessories has devolved into "cheap and nasty" vs "over-priced, over-fussy, over-complicated" with little middle ground for making VHS dubs (the story is somewhat better when it comes to recording new TV material, but for VHS,.. ugh).

The utility curve for DVD/HDD recorder vs PC capture is somewhat peculiar. I think the PC lends itself more to the extremes: great if you have just a handful of tapes, or great if you have hundreds. But DVD/HDD recorders seem to be optimal for midrange projects involving 50-300 tapes. For just a few tapes, you can wing it on the PC with a decent cheap capture device and passably good free utilities. For a huge collection, you can justify spending the money (and learning curve) for a really good capture device and top-notch paid video software.

But if you're in the middle? The cheap PC options are sucky, while the expensive ones are overkill/poor value relative to a good DVD/HDD recorder. The PC often requires additional hardware for VHS dubbing (TBCs, fancy discontinued VCRs, etc) that the standalone recorder doesn't, so here again one wants to carefully evaluate the cost vs number of tapes. The wildcard in all this, as jjeff noted, is the wider range of options you can get via PC software: it is far more flexible and feature-laden than any currently-available DVD/HDD unit.

The PC will let you create amazingly detailed and precise menu navigation for the DVDs, or let you forget making DVDs altogether in favor of digital video files that can be much more space-efficient and usable across multiple devices (tablets, phones, laptops, media players, BluRay players). The standalone recorder is a simplified dedicated unit designed for one task only: quickly and easily create standard DVDs with basic menus and navigation.

If considering the PC route, look into an inexpoensive second-hand "ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB" on eBay, and download the Windows Vista driver package for it. It was widely considered one of the best USB video dongles for capturing VHS signals, unfortunately it was discontinued in 2010 and support drops off after Windows Vista (although the Vista drivers reportedly work with Win 7 and perhaps Win 8). Once you see how this suits your tapes, you can either move forward with upgraded software choices or resell the ATI and opt for a new Magnavox MDR533 or Panasonic EH59.
CitiBear is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 01:54 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,449
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 459
I'm pretty much PC-centric when it comes to video. Even when I used a DVD Recorder I would simply burn off the recordings to RAM for transport to a PC where the serious work would be done. Having said that, when it comes to VHS transfers I would recommend only using a DVD recorder -- unless you already had a high-quality analog capture board or USB capture device (Hauppauge) on your PC. When it comes to analog2digital capture devices for the PC, only the good quality ones are worth looking at and those are all geared mostly towards component HD input and run about $150. They also tend to produce H.264 encoded files geared for BluRay and not MPEG-2 encodings for DVD.

If you want to transfer VHS to DVD, use a DVD recorder to at least do the encoding. If you want to get fancy, take the encoding to a PC afterwards to do the editing and authoring.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
I'm pretty much PC-centric when it comes to video. Even when I used a DVD Recorder I would simply burn off the recordings to RAM for transport to a PC where the serious work would be done. Having said that, when it comes to VHS transfers I would recommend only using a DVD recorder -- unless you already had a high-quality analog capture board or USB capture device (Hauppauge) on your PC. When it comes to analog2digital capture devices for the PC, only the good quality ones are worth looking at and those are all geared mostly towards component HD input and run about $150. They also tend to produce H.264 encoded files geared for BluRay and not MPEG-2 encodings for DVD.

If you want to transfer VHS to DVD, use a DVD recorder to at least do the encoding. If you want to get fancy, take the encoding to a PC afterwards to do the editing and authoring.
Thank you all for the great information! I did a little more testing with the Polaroid DVD Recorder with +R DVDs and had the same results as the DVD-Rs. So, it looks like I'm going to forget about that unit and the whole idea of "Intelligent Scene Chaptering."

I think I will look for a brand new Magnavox or Panasonic as suggested by CitiBear. I will probably do some testing with my Panasonic DMR-E100H but I think I would prefer some of the features that can be found on the newer models.

Thanks again for all of your help!
Chris
ChrisRatchford is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 9,925
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Not that I think it would be an issue but a Panasonic as old as the E100H records full D1 resolution as 704x480, newer Panasonics and just about every other brand record full D1 as 720x480. IMO while the E100H was probably a decent DVDR in it's time, I personally wouldn't care for it much Something like a EH-59 or even '06 EH-55 while not nearly as heavy or good build quality runs rings around something like a E100H.
jjeff is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 02:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
wajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisRatchford View Post
Thank you all for the great information! I did a little more testing with the Polaroid DVD Recorder with +R DVDs and had the same results as the DVD-Rs. So, it looks like I'm going to forget about that unit and the whole idea of "Intelligent Scene Chaptering."

I think I will look for a brand new Magnavox or Panasonic as suggested by CitiBear. I will probably do some testing with my Panasonic DMR-E100H but I think I would prefer some of the features that can be found on the newer models.

Thanks again for all of your help!
Chris
If you're going to look at a Magnavox, I'd recommend the newest 557 model, which is closer to the Panasonic than the previous generation 53x models.

PHILIPS HD DVRs | MAG/PHILIPS SD DVDRs* | DVDR/DVR COMPARISONS | POST-DVDR OPTIONS
*Due to the AVS SW change in June 2014, most but not all links in this thread will work if you're not logged in. If you are logged in, links should work if your User CP > Edit Options > Number of Posts to Show per Page is set to 30, the default.
wajo is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 05:44 PM
Member
 
FFVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post
If you're going to look at a Magnavox, I'd recommend the newest 557 model, which is closer to the Panasonic than the previous generation 53x models.
As much as I am a Panasonic fan, I would agree.

1. New (international) Pannys have incorrect IRE levels for North American use.
2. Finding a used Panny is a crapshoot.

I'm thinking my next DVDR purchase will be a 557, when the need arises.
FFVT is offline  
Old 08-06-2014, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thanks again for all of the help and recommendations! I just ordered a new Magnavox MDR557 on Amazon. Looking forward to checking it out.
Thanks again!
ChrisRatchford is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off