Pioneer DVR-550H-K Real Time Copy (MN13) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 6 Old 06-11-2015, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Pioneer DVR-550H-K Real Time Copy (MN13)

The concern I have is the following:

1) I record classic tv shows and collect and burn these to DVD (22 min -25 shows)

I record in MN13, which allows me to burn 9 episodes to a DVD-5 disc. It is a good trade-off and PQ doesn't suffer much as these are old shows from the 1950's - 1960's and were recorded with < 400 lines.

Now the concern:

Because I like to keep the edits precise copying in high-speed mode is out of the question as the edits move in this mode.
So I burn at MN13 (the original recorded speed/quality) in REAL TIME.
This preserves the edits and I am happy with the result despite having to wait a long time to burn - I watch the shows as I burn

NOW I just became alarming aware that having the laser on all that time (from 22 min- 180 mins) will reduce it's life.
In high-speed it takes 12 mins or so.
NOW the 25,000 $ question....

Q. Is the machine designed to withstand that long a 'burn' and is the power the laser uses identical to high-speed copy?

Obviously I am very concerned about my beloved DVR dying on me and losing my precious recordings (I mean the laser in the DVD burner)
I have experimented for years with different recording speeds , and burning speeds but ONLY real time (MN12 or MN13) preserves the edits, but as I said you have to burn in real-time.

I might be slow, but why to edits move in high-speed if only digital data is copied not VIDEO as in real-time. Is that what real-time is doing ? "recording" the actual video ?

Has anybody found a high-speed recording mode that preserves edits?

TvMind

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post #2 of 6 Old 06-11-2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TvMind View Post
I might be slow, but why to edits move in high-speed if only digital data is copied not VIDEO as in real-time. Is that what real-time is doing ? "recording" the actual video ?

Has anybody found a high-speed recording mode that preserves edits?
A semi-conductor laser is like anything else electronic -- it has a finite emissive lifetime and the more it is activated the less time it will last.

High-speed dubs are digital transfers without any re-coding. In that case, cut-points have to be on an I-frame and I-frames come 0.5 seconds apart. So with a high-speed transfer the accuracy of the edits can be no better than within 0.5 seconds of where you make the cut. In order to get an accurate cut with high-speed dubbing, the recorder must be capable of doing local re-coding of the frames surrounding the cut-point. Your DVDR is not capable of local re-coding.

In a real-time dub the DVDR is re-coding the entire video. It is the same as if the recorder played the video to its output and looped the output back to its own input and re-recorded it -- and that is what the recorder is actually doing, internally. So since it plays smoothly at the cut points you specify, it re-records them smoothly. Only problem is you are making a copy of a copy using a low bitrate setting so the PQ is going to suffer -- because of the nature of your source you probably don't notice.

If you wish to have frame-accurate edits and minimize your laser's use time you will need to involve a PC. Make the recordings, do a high-speed dub to a re-writable disk, take it to your PC and use an editing package with local frame re-coding like Video ReDo. You can make frame-accurate cuts, save the files with local re-coding at the cut points and use the software to author and burn your DVD's with better custom menus than you will ever get in a DVD recorder. Otherwise you will have to choose between frame-accurate cuts and laser use time.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine


Last edited by Kelson; 06-11-2015 at 11:05 AM.
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post #3 of 6 Old 06-11-2015, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

In a real-time dub the DVDR is re-coding the entire video. ..... Only problem is you are making a copy of a copy using a low bitrate setting so the PQ is going to suffer -- because of the nature of your source you probably don't notice.
>>

Make the recordings, do a high-speed dub to a re-writable disk, take it to your PC and use an editing package with local frame re-coding like Video ReDo. .
Excellent information Kelson , thank you so much for taking the time to explain things.
Yes I used to edit in "Video Mode compatible editing", as you say 15 frames or 0.5 sec accuracy for high-speed copying but being a sticker for precise editing this didn't satisfy me, especially since the station used aggressive cuts of only 3-5 frames between commercials (MeTV). Makes completes sense to me, surprised the Pioneer can't do this locally.
One of the advantages of getting this DVR was to get away from PC and all that extra work. Yes I used to do everything in VideoRedo Plus but nothing beats the convenience of editing from the couch with a remote - can do this in my sleep by now

I think I have noticed some PQ degradation, didn't realize I was re-encoding an already 'compromised' setting of MN13 .
And having the laser on all that time too. Looks like the only solution is I-Frame editing and lose material, but save the laser. I couldn't care less about fancier menus, the stock ones in the DVR suit me fine. This is mainly an archiving tool for me. Incidentally I get a very high quality source from the broadcaster out of Chicago uplinked to satellite, and receive with my 10' BUD , S-video DVB receiver, Monster cable to Pioneer DVDR. I also in parallel use a second receiver to record the transport stream to an HD. These I have no choice but to VideoRedo to edit. I kind of like the analog setup best.

Living in an imperfect world.
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post #4 of 6 Old 06-11-2015, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TvMind View Post
NOW I just became alarming aware that having the laser on all that time (from 22 min- 180 mins) will reduce it's life.
In high-speed it takes 12 mins or so.
NOW the 25,000 $ question....

Q. Is the machine designed to withstand that long a 'burn' and is the power the laser uses identical to high-speed copy?
The faster the burn = the more laser power used. While high-speed burning takes more laser power it takes less time to burn but certainly the laser gets much hotter and more stressed during HSD burning.

Here are some specs of approximate laser power used at various burn speeds. Of course your DVD recorder must be properly firmwared to accept multi-speed discs and multi-speed burning..

Mitsubishi claims
Required laser power for 1x: 50mW
Required laser power for 2x: 70mW
Required laser power for 4x: 100mW
Required laser power for 8x: 140mW
Required laser power for 12x: 200mW
Required laser power for 16x: 250mW

Sony claims
Required laser power for 4x: 100mW
Required laser power for 8x: 140mW
Required laser power for 12x: 200mW
Required laser power for 16x: 250mW

You can add to that laser power consumption if using Dual Layer discs.
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post #5 of 6 Old 06-12-2015, 08:42 AM
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I wouldn't worry too much about it, TvMind. If you have a Pioneer, you must have acquired it years ago (since they were all discontinued by 2008). Assuming you have used it regularly since then, if it was a more fragile example it would have croaked on you long before now. If its been burning DVDs for you all this time, it will likely continue to do so for another few years (tho of course the laser will eventually give out, they all do). As Super Eye noted, its a zero-sum calculation: high speed uses more laser power over a shorter time, real-time uses lower power over a longer period.

Sooo... pick your poison. I prefer HS dub, to retain video quality and free the unit for other uses quickly. The edit point accuracy is preserved during HS dub if you switch the edit display from "frame accurate" to "video mode": video mode will force your displayed edit points to the nearest 0.5 second which is exactly where they'll be in the finalized DVD. I understand your beef with MeTV intrusive commercial frames, I don't like them either, but I quickly taught myself to "get over it". For one thing, the MeTV syndication prints are incomplete and butchered anyway, for another, we're kidding ourselves if we think we're ever gonna re-watch this stuff more than once or twice. A lesson I learned over my thirty-three (!) years of VHS/DVD collecting: we're casually viewing for nostalgia's sake, not curating this stuff for the Library Of Congress. With the shows I really love THAT much, I just buy the commercial DVD sets (which for classic sitcoms especially are now a great $$$ value).
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post #6 of 6 Old 06-13-2015, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I prefer HS dub, to retain video quality and free the unit for other uses quickly. The edit point accuracy is preserved during HS dub if you switch the edit display from "frame accurate" to "video mode":
Thanks for chiming in here Citibear I was hoping you would reading from past years posts you seem to be the expert on these matters: I tried pm'in you but I just joined and you have to have 15 posts to do that. Back to the issue:

Yes I know that frame accurate is 0.5 sec accuracy and you are right , in the past, I found it unacceptable when rewatching material all those abrupt transitions were rather jarring. But you are right I will have to 'get over it' as you say, or let this one go. I agree wholeheartedly that I am not archiving for resale or anybody else but for my own enjoyment. I am however aware that I want to preserve every precious frame of these classics as much as possible. I wrote to MeTV about their aggressive editing but, not surprisingly, they denied they do it. Oh and I do buy the DVD's as well, just recently bought 'Meet Corliss Archer' at less than $5 a DVD or 4 episodes IIRC, shipping is expensive however to Canada.

Btw the way thanks for the tip on VR mode initializing for direct HD backup. Had to use that recently when a got a "glitch" and couldn't record or edit anymore. This has happened many times in the past. I had to delete the 'culprit' recording and things returned to normal. Yes I am guilty of also leaving many short edited shows on the drive. It's so hard to keep up ! So high-speed it is with frame accurate. But being the anal s.o.b. I will keep recording on the dvb/hd and edit these in VideoRedo "one day" hehe. Maybe the next lifetime

When I get real lazy I download these in avi. from poster on usenet , complete series, to enjoy .just saying'

Thanks guy all good advice and enjoy these gems while we still got 'em.
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