E80 quesstion: High-speed dub of FR programs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I set up three one-hour, FR recordings, and have removed commercials from each using the shorten segment feature so they are now 42-43 minutes each. I've confirmed they are in FR mode via the "properties" on each one.

I want to be able to high-speed dub these to one disc, but it's saying there isn't enough room on the disc for all three. I thought FR mode would squeeze the dubbing list all on one disc? I'm able to dub them in real-time, but shouldn't I be able to dub them in high-speed mode as well?
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post #2 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 06:01 AM
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When you did FR for a 1 hour program, the E80 automatically chose quality closer to XP. So, what you've got are 3 programs that add up to ~2.5 hours (after removing commercials) in something close to XP quality. That's why all 3 won't fit on a 4.7GB DVD-R or DVD-RAM.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but for each program you use FR on the HDD, the E80 assumes you want to fill 4.7GB's worth (the same as doing FR directly to a DVD-R or DVD-RAM).

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post #3 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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The exact total is 2:09, but that's a trivial point. So I'd likely have to drop down to the 3rd setting (4 hours per disc) to get 2:09 worth of material to high-speed dub on one disc? Seeing as the 2:09 eclipses the 2-hour allotment allowed by SP mode.

Is that correct?
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 06:39 AM
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I think what you should have done was during the original FR recordings set the duration of each recording to 2:09 (actually a little higher like 2:15 to be safe), then stop the recording at the 1 hour mark.

This will ensure that each recording will be recorded at a bit rate (slightly below SP) that will fit on a DVD-R.

Thats my understanding at this point.
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post #5 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by PatsWonSB
I think what you should have done was during the original FR recordings set the duration of each recording to 2:09 (actually a little higher like 2:15 to be safe), then stop the recording at the 1 hour mark.

This will ensure that each recording will be recorded at a bit rate (slightly below SP) that will fit on a DVD-R.

Thats my understanding at this point.
that makes some sense. I should be able to let it record the entire 2:15 and then just shorten segment later (like removing the last approx 1:30), no? that way I can let it record the 2 hours while at work and don't have to be there to stop it when needed. just edit it down later.
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post #6 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 07:15 AM
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I had a similar problem last night. I recorded 6 half hour shows at SP, edited the commercials, then tried to high speed dub but got the same message, not enough space on disc. The total was 126 minutes.

I then had to remove one of the episodes to fit on disc.

Bob
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post #7 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonBrown
I should be able to let it record the entire 2:15 and then just shorten segment later (like removing the last approx 1:30), no? that way I can let it record the 2 hours while at work and don't have to be there to stop it when needed. just edit it down later.
Yes
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post #8 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by bad1550
I had a similar problem last night. I recorded 6 half hour shows at SP, edited the commercials, then tried to high speed dub but got the same message, not enough space on disc. The total was 126 minutes.

I then had to remove one of the episodes to fit on disc.

Bob
So it looks like it will strictly enforce the 2-hour limit. Was hoping there'd be some wiggle room. Bummer.
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post #9 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonBrown
So it looks like it will strictly enforce the 2-hour limit. Was hoping there'd be some wiggle room. Bummer.

Someone in another thread seemed pretty sure you could go 2:09-2:10.


Tbill

Tbill
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post #10 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by tbill1
Someone in another thread seemed pretty sure you could go 2:09-2:10.


Tbill
I'll find out soon enough, as I'll be trying to fit 2:09 worth of SP recording onto one disc. I've set up three 2:30 FR recordings, of which they'll all be pared down to 42-43 minutes worth. Figured giving the extra 5 minutes or so per FR recording might be just enough to get the filesizes down to where they'll fit. We'll see.
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post #11 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tbill1
Someone in another thread seemed pretty sure you could go 2:09-2:10.
You can do this in FR mode, not SP mode. Actually, you can get approx 2:15-2:20 of FR recordings before a drop in resolution occurs. If multiple recordings are desired then make sure each is recorded at the same FR time limit.

Note that its not the actual times that must add up but the size of the recordings. This must be less than the free space on the DVD-R (or whatever limit Panasonic enforces).
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post #12 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 11:21 AM
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Do I have to then set the FR recording time to 2:15 or do I just use the default FR setting to fit 6 half hr episodes (edited) on a 2hr disc.

Thanks,

Bob
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post #13 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PatsWonSB
You can do this in FR mode, not SP mode. Actually, you can get approx 2:15-2:20 of FR recordings before a drop in resolution occurs. If multiple recordings are desired then make sure each is recorded at the same FR time limit.

Note that its not the actual times that must add up but the size of the recordings. This must be less than the free space on the DVD-R (or whatever limit Panasonic enforces).

Could you explain why that is: FR mode can get 2:15-2:20 without a drop in resolution? I thought the recording speed assumes putting everything on one 4.7 disc. So why isn't it a mixture of SP and LP? If there is extra space on a disc ( longer than 2 hours), why won't SP work just as well?

Thanks in advance, Tbill

Tbill
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post #14 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 06:45 PM
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If you make a recording in FR mode on the HD that is too large to transfer "as is" to the DVD-R (like 2.5 hours long), couldn't you dub to DVD-R in FR mode and the program would then fit the DVD-R?
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post #15 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Could you explain why that is: FR mode can get 2:15-2:20 without a drop in resolution? I thought the recording speed assumes putting everything on one 4.7 disc. So why isn't it a mixture of SP and LP? If there is extra space on a disc ( longer than 2 hours), why won't SP work just as well?

Thanks in advance, Tbill
There are two parts to the equation. One, as you've correctly pointed out is
resolution but the other parameter of concern is bitrate. It breaks down as follows:

Mode Resolution Avg. Bitrate Hours of Programming per Disk
XP 704x480 ~8 Mbits/sec 1 Hr.
SP 704x480 ~4 Mbits/sec 2 Hr.
LP 352x480 ~2 Mbits/sec 4 Hr.
EP 352x240 ~1.3 Mbits/sec 6 Hr.

FR mode sets the avg bitrate (this is variable bit rate (vbr) compression) and resolution appropriate to the requested record time and available space on the disk. This approach allows it to use "SP" resolution out to about 2 hrs. 20 min., however, avg bitrate must be lowered accordingly. The 2 hour 20 min "breakpoint" corresponds approximately to the point at which the Panasonic FR algorithm determines that the required bitrate doesn't provide sufficient picture quality at SP resolution. So for FR recordings between approximately 2 hrs. 20 min and 4 hours 40 min in length, LP resolution (352x480) is used and the avg bitrate is adjusted to allow the recording to just fit the disk. With the Hybrid VBR Resolution setup menu setting set to "Fixed" (the default is auto) resolution will be "fixed" for the duration of the recording and only bit rate will be varied as necessary to fill the disk. In "auto" Hybrid VBR mode, both bitrate and resolution can be varied as the FR algorithm sees fit so under these conditions you could indeed have a recording with sections recorded at 704x480 and other sections recorded at 352x480.


Note: edited/corrected each modes bitrate's above consistent with potus' post below.

HTH,
Vic

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post #16 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 09:49 PM
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Vic- that was a work of art(and a dose of electronic engineering)-This board needs a classic response section.I need to save that to Word .Think I will.

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post #17 of 32 Old 08-19-2003, 10:17 PM
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Just from the bitrate meter display on my E80, it looks more like:

XP ~8 Mbits/sec 1 Hr.
SP ~4 Mbits/sec 2 Hr.
LP ~2 Mbits/sec 4 Hr.
EP ~1.33 Mbits/sec 6 Hr.

Which makes sense to me, since time*rate has to be constant (since disk holds a constant number of bits...)
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post #18 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 04:02 AM
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Potus,

Thanks for the corrected average bit rates per mode. I was going on memory of an old post of the resolution/bitrates, but wasn't "thinking" about what I actually typed on the bitrate. Resolution indeed lowers for the longer playback modes (LP,EP) but that doesn't translate into maintaining the higher SP-like bit rates (logic flaw on my part). You are absolutely correct on time*rate since the number of bits on a DVD are fixed, avg bitrate must be lowered to accomodate the longer playback times. At some point, as bitrate is lowered to accommodate longer playback time, the resolution needs to take a hit to accommodate the lower bitrate. Otherwise, if you maintained resolution constant throught, even for long time recordings, you'd get a really lousy looking 704x480 frame since the bitrate is so low. Thanks for setting me straight on that one. I've corrected my post accordingly so as to limit spreading bum information.

As Homer would say: "Doh!"

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post #19 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari

...With the Hybrid VBR Resolution setup menu setting set to "Fixed" (the default is auto) resolution will be "fixed" for the duration of the recording and only bit rate will be varied as necessary to fill the disk. In "auto" Hybrid VBR mode, both bitrate and resolution can be varied as the FR algorithm sees fit so under these conditions you could indeed have a recording with sections recorded at 704x480 and other sections recorded at 352x480.

HTH,
Vic


Can you please clarify this a little for a novice such as myself, are you saying that you will get better results with the VBR set to "Fixed" for FR recordings? If that is the case, are you sacrificing something else (such as record time)?
:confused:
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post #20 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by magoo1967
Can you please clarify this a little for a novice such as myself, are you saying that you will get better results with the VBR set to "Fixed" for FR recordings? If that is the case, are you sacrificing sometyhing else (such as record time)?
:confused:
I think "Fixed" was recommended to prevent transitions in resolution which can occur in "Auto" mode. Transitions in resolution can wreck havoc with PC based authoring software. If you are recording to DVD-R on the recorder then this is not an issue.

I don't remember reading any threads which compared "Fixed" to "Auto" as far as picture quality goes or any other advantages/disadvantages.
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post #21 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PatsWonSB
I think "Fixed" was recommended to prevent transitions in resolution which can occur in "Auto" mode. Transitions in resolution can wreck havoc with PC based authoring software. If you are recording to DVD-R on the recorder then this is not an issue.

I don't remember reading any threads which compared "Fixed" to "Auto" as far as picture quality goes or any other advantages/disadvantages.
Thanks for clarifying that for me, but this leads me to another question. Does this mean that if I have already created a dvd on the E80 using FR mode with the VBR set to "auto", that I will run into problems (or quality drops) if I try to duplicate the dvd on a PC based burner? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that once I have created a dvd on the E80, I could then make exact replicas (lossless copies) of that dvd on a PC dvd burner using software such as NERO, is this accurate?
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post #22 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by magoo1967
Thanks for clarifying that for me, but this leads me to another question. Does this mean that if I have already created a dvd on the E80 using FR mode with the VBR set to "auto", that I will run into problems (or quality drops) if I try to duplicate the dvd on a PC based burner? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that once I have created a dvd on the E80, I could then make exact replicas (lossless copies) of that dvd on a PC dvd burner using software such as NERO, is this accurate?
The problem only occurs while authoring a DVD-RAM/VRO recording into the DVD video format.

If you've already burn't a DVD-R in the auto mode then you can still duplicate it in a PC without any issues (or quality loss). Duplicating and authoring are 2 different processes.
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post #23 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PatsWonSB
I think what you should have done was during the original FR recordings set the duration of each recording to 2:09 (actually a little higher like 2:15 to be safe), then stop the recording at the 1 hour mark.

This will ensure that each recording will be recorded at a bit rate (slightly below SP) that will fit on a DVD-R.

Thats my understanding at this point.

There seems to be some dispute on this. According to VideoGrabber on another thread, Jason could also do this using SP-or am I not understanding this???

Tim...please help


Thanks, Tbill

Tbill
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post #24 of 32 Old 08-20-2003, 11:02 PM
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Lots of confusion here. From the top...

JasonBrown wrote:
> I want to be able to high-speed dub these to one disc, but it's saying there isn't enough room on the disc for all three. <

No, there's not. Brajesh's response was correct about your essentially recording them in XP mode (1 hour in FR mode is close to XP mode). So the 2:09 you've currently got would fill 2 discs (almost 9 gigs of content).

> So I'd likely have to drop down to the 3rd setting (4 hours per disc) to get 2:09 worth of material to high-speed dub on one disc? Seeing as the 2:09 eclipses the 2-hour allotment allowed by SP mode. Is that correct? <

No.

PatsWonSB's suggestion for FR mode recording should work fine, and you probably don't need as big a safety margin as suggested. And your idea to "overrecord" then trim the excess should work too.

bad1550 wrote:
> I recorded 6 half hour shows at SP, edited the commercials, then tried to high speed dub but got the same message, not enough space on disc. The total was 126 minutes. <

That's very strange. There should be no problem at all with 2:06 at SP mode on to a fresh disc. When you were in the dubbing screen, what did it show as the capacity of your blank disc (mine was 4411 MB)?

I've been burning all my recent DVD-Rs with 2:09 or 2:10 (one at 2:11), except when things are shorter and I'm too lazy to find extra to pad it out. I always have space left over at 2:09. There is a small amount of variation in the MB required for a given amount of time, but not a lot. All my current source material came from Dishnet, which is pretty heavily compressed already. Perhaps if I were doing OTA, cable, or real satellite (C/Ku-band) my results might differ. My content has been working out to ~34 MB/minute, or 4.5 Mbit/sec (average).

> So it looks like it will strictly enforce the 2-hour limit. Was hoping there'd be some wiggle room. <

Nope. I can guarantee there IS significant wiggle-room, unless my machine is different from all the rest (extremely unlikely). All it cares about is that is HAS to fit everything into 4411 MB (on my machine/discs, YMMV). With the material I've been recording, with compatible mode On and Hybrid-VBR disabled, SP mode recordings can fit at least 2:09 in that space.

If your content was recorded a bit higher, I could see that you might not hav an extra 9-10 minutes, but there'd be some extra room. When bad1550 couldn't fit 2:06 on his disc, I'd wonder what the MB requirements were? Probably just slightly over 4411 MB.

tbill1 commented:
> Someone in another thread seemed pretty sure you could go 2:09-2:10. <

That was me, and I'm not pretty sure, I'm positive. I've got a stack of at least 6 discs here with 2:09-2:11 on them.

PatsWonSb responded:
> You can do this in FR mode, not SP mode. <

No, that's incorrect. It works fine in SP mode, though I'm sure with some effort, FR mode could also be used. I'd just be concerned that FR mode might be smart enough (dynamic enough) to notice that its projected burn rate wasn't using as much space as expected, and bump it up, thus using more than the fixed SP mode would. I'd only use FR mode if I wasn't already going to come close to 2:08-2:10 usage. Like if I had to fit 2:15.

He also indicated:
> Actually, you can get approx 2:15-2:20 of FR recordings before a drop in resolution occurs. <

That's correct, but a little misleading. FR mode won't drop down into the next lower resolution range until you exceed that time, but your PQ will be slightly reduced as you go beyond 2:00. Pushing it to 2:20 is an almost 20% decrease in the bit-rate, which could be noticably detrimental to PQ.

Magoo asked:
> are you saying that you will get better results with the VBR set to "Fixed" for FR recordings? If that is the case, are you sacrificing something else (such as record time)? <

Yes, and yes. Setting hybrid-VBR to auto will get more time into any destination you record to. To accomplish this, two things will happen: one is that the PQ will sporadically go down. Theoretically, you shouldn't notice this, since it's only supposed to happen when it's masked. But there's no guarantee. The second thing is that you'll lose any ability to predict how much time you've got, or any particular recording will consume.

tboll1 wrote:
> Tim...please help <

Geez, this whole thread materialized in the last 40 hours. I'm not always able to check in several times a day. ;) Now, I need to sleep, and hope I didn't mess up any details.

- Tim

- Tim
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post #25 of 32 Old 08-21-2003, 05:44 AM
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Just to follow up, I was able to successfully record 6 half hr shows on one DVD-R recorded at SP. I edited the commercials and total time was 2:09 and did the high speed dub! This has now worked 3 straight times - Yea!

Bob
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post #26 of 32 Old 08-21-2003, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by VideoGrabber

Magoo asked:
> are you saying that you will get better results with the VBR set to "Fixed" for FR recordings? If that is the case, are you sacrificing something else (such as record time)? <

Yes, and yes. Setting hybrid-VBR to auto will get more time into any destination you record to. To accomplish this, two things will happen: one is that the PQ will sporadically go down. Theoretically, you shouldn't notice this, since it's only supposed to happen when it's masked. But there's no guarantee. The second thing is that you'll lose any ability to predict how much time you've got, or any particular recording will consume.

- Tim
Please bare with me here, but I am still a little shakey on this (what else is new?). Let me rephrase my question to better describe my concern, in hope that this will help me better understand the answer. Up until now, I have been using FR mode for any movies that exceed 2 hours so that I can fit them on a single disc without dropping all the way to LP speed (example: "Lord of the Rings-Fellowship..." is a 3 hour movie that I wanted to fit on 1 disc, so I used FR instead of LP thinking that the FR recording would look better). Since I knew nothing about the VBR setting, it was left on its default which is "auto". After reading this thread, I am getting the impression that I would be better off setting the VBR to "fixed" for these types of recordings (or maybe all recordings). What I don't understand is when you said that I would lose the ability to predict how much time any particular recording would consume. Does this mean that the movie I mentioned in my example would not have fit on a single disc if the VBR was set to fixed? Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated. Sorry to beat this into the ground, but I am just trying to make sure that I understand this correctly. Thanks.
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post #27 of 32 Old 08-21-2003, 06:22 AM
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Nice summary VideoGrabber :) ... Quite useful, thanks.

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post #28 of 32 Old 08-21-2003, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks to all for the informed answers. Right now, I'm using a 1 hour, FR mode dub (it sets it to SP mode) for 3 seperate shows, editing commericals, and doing an FR-dub in real time to DVD-R.

From what I read, I should be able to high-speed dub these, but do I then have to do a strict dub in SP mode, or will an FR dub that sets to SP quality by the 1 hour length do the trick?

I've tried one high-speed dub before, and the 5 minute chparter stops weren't present. Does the high-speed dub only preserve the user-inserted marks?
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post #29 of 32 Old 08-21-2003, 09:45 PM
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Scene content is also a major factor with the bit-rate. I made two separate recordings of the same 93 minute movie on the HDD ( one in SP mode, the other in FR mode).

I picked a nighttime scene that cuts from two policemen talking in a patrol car to a splash of neon lights along the Vegas strip.

SP Mode: Bit-rate went from approx. 3.2 to 5.2

FR Mode (Same exact scene): Bit-rate went from approx. 4.6 to 7.8

After dubbing the 93 min. movie onto a DVD-R, I also noticed that the remaining time indicator showed 2 minutes remaining on the DVD-R (before finalizing).


My point is that it does pay to use FR mode even with shorter movies.

Peter M
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post #30 of 32 Old 08-22-2003, 05:07 AM
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Jason:

Not sure I understand the FR/SP/High-speed question. FR mode will make the three recordings fit by re-encoding at an appropriate bitrate. I think SP mode will limit you to 2 hours and re-encodes in SP mode, while a high speed dub does no re-encoding and is limited simply by file size (more than 2 hours of SP recordings can fit on one disk.)

With a high speed mode dub to DVD-R the only chapters will be the ones set by the user (only those present on HDD, any markers set on the DVD-R after dubbing are not retained when finalized.)

Dubbing a DVD compatible recording in any mode other than high speed should get you the automatic chapter marks (not 100% sure because I haven't tried it.)

David
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Closed Thread DVD Recorders (Standard Def)

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