Tranfering mini DV to HS2 /DVD-r - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I just purchased a Canon mini dv camera and wanted to know the best method to transfer the video to DVD-R using the HS2. My first attempts using the firewire did not look very good, the quality seem to drop significantly from the original. I thought the firewire would give me the best results. Any suggestions.
thanks
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post #2 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 12:57 PM
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I have the DMR-E80 and I just completed a transfer from my Mini-DV via s-video with great results!

Bob
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post #3 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob, can you tell me the exact steps you used. Do you know how do
a "no loss" transfer from minidvi to the DVD-R? why did you not used the firewire port?
thanks
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post #4 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 03:23 PM
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E-80 does not have a firewire input like the HS2...

The Future ain't what it used to be...
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post #5 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by futyb
Bob, can you tell me the exact steps you used. Do you know how do
a "no loss" transfer from minidvi to the DVD-R? why did you not used the firewire port?
thanks
Correct - No Firewire on the E80. I used the S-Video and R/L audio on front of unit (L2)

Set my recording speed to XP, hit play on your mini-dv and rec on the E-80.

I was able to fit 2 One hour tapes on a single DVD-R, but was unable to dub in High Speed mode (I would have to record on SP).

Bob
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post #6 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 08:57 PM
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miniDV - 480 lines of resolution
S-Video - 310 lines of resolutiion
Firewire - 480 lines of resolution

miniDV -> Firewire -> Philips DVDR985 -> Left Me Speechless.

Max
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post #7 of 20 Old 08-19-2003, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by umenon
miniDV - 480 lines of resolution
S-Video - 310 lines of resolution
The above seems to imply that S-video output is incapable of retaining the full resolution/bandwidth of miniDV signal which is simply NOT true. I think you are confusing the resolution spec of SVHS for S-Video. S-video is a signal specification which imposes no such resolution limits.

You should be able to (theoretically) get very good results with
miniDV->S-video->E80.

Remember, DV to DVD CANNOT be a lossless transfer. DV format is NOT MPEG, and is recorded at a much higher data rate than even XP. Some conversion (and hence loss) has to be made.

I believe the only benefit Firewire can provide in this case is the synchronized control features it could give you. You shouldn't expect significant (if any) PQ improvements over the S-video route.

If someone has experience otherwise, (actually compared results of Firewire vs. S-video dubs to DVD) please chime in!
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post #8 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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potus, so except for those controls, I should see no pq difference between the 2, fw or svhs? Is it possible since dv is not mpgeg that I would get worse results than the svhs? If I used a computer to capture and burn the dvd-r would I get better pq using the fw ( or even usb) ?
thanks
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post #9 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 12:22 PM
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Just to be clear, I would rather NOT use the term "svhs". This is further confusing the issue, since svhs recording does not in any way enter into the equation here. It's "S-video" (NOT svhs) vs. Firewire.

Now, as far as PQ quality goes, I don't _think_ you will notice any difference in PQ between the 2. In BOTH cases there is a re-encoding that has to occur to get the data onto DVD. In both cases, the SAME MPEG encoder (the one in the DVD recorder) will be used. Since I also assume that the MPEG encoding step is the biggest source of PQ degradation, (much bigger than d/a-a/d conversion, or DV decode steps) the PQ should therefore be comparable.

Keep in mind that I have never actually done Firewire transfer to DVD. My E80 doesn't have it. This is all based on conjecture. I haven't even tried S-video, but I _have_ transferred some miniDV material to E80 using composite, and even that produced very good results. I would expect even better with S-video. Anyone with practical Firewire vs. S-video, please chip in!

As far as results using a PC, I can't say much, only conjectures again. This would be very similar to using Firewire on a recorder. The DV data will be transfered to the PC as a lossless digital copy. But instead of the recorder doing the conversion to MPEG, your PC's DVD authoring software would do it. So depending on the quality of the MPEG encoder on your PC compared to the one in the DVD recorder, the results may vary..

Oh, and to answer a previous question, there is NO WAY to get a lossless transfer from miniDV to DVD-R, not even with Firewire. (of course you can use a PC to copy the raw DV data to DVD-R media, but that doesn't count, since you will NOT be able to play it on a DVD player.) As mentioned before, the formats are different (DV vs. MPEG)
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post #10 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 02:18 PM
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miniDV -> Firewire -> 985 Recorder

Its all in the digital domain ... no conversion to analog.

Its like the difference between a TIVO built into a DirecTV box and one thats standalone ... the first TIVO is better because its all digital !

Max
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post #11 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 03:16 PM
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"all digital" does NOT necessarily mean better.

For example, I can take an mp3 file, reconvert it to a lower bitrate and come up with something that's far inferior to the original, in spite of "all digital" transformation.

Conversely, I can take that same mp3 file, play it through my pc's sound card's output (d/a conversion), loop it back into the soundcard's analog input, record it uncompressed to a .wav file (a/d conversion) and wind up with a better result than the "all digital" conversion. (This would be a silly thing to do, of course, but it's for the sake of argument...)

"all digital" superiority is not a given... If it were a direct bit-for-bit copy (as a Firewire transfer of data to a PC is), you would have no argument, but there are an awful lot of horrible things that can happen to digital data as it is translated from one format to another. (which has to occur somewhere along the line in the miniDV-to-DVD equation...) Just because the translation is all in the digital domain does not mean it is "perfect".

Have you tried:
miniDV -> S-video -> 985 Recorder?
The results might surprise you.
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post #12 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 06:39 PM
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futyb asked:
> so except for those controls, I should see no pq difference between the 2, fw or svhs? Is it possible since dv is not mpgeg that I would get worse results than the svhs? <

Rather than spending a lot of time asking and reasking the same questions, and getting guesses and conjectures, why not just try it both ways? You have all the necessary equipment right in front of you, and in 5 minutes you will KNOW the answer, unambiguously. Firewire better than S-video, worse, or the same.

Then you can come back here and educate the rest of us. :)

- Tim

- Tim
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post #13 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 08:24 PM
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I have been using the miniDV - > S-video -> MPEG2 for the last few years ... until I bought the 985 and realized all the resolution I was missing.

Unfortunately, I overwrote my past recordings so I did not have to buy tons of miniDV tapes. Which I regret because I stuck with crummy video from the old days.

Bear in mind ... when you do a miniDV -> firewire -> 985 recorder ... you should always use the HQ setting ... because thats the only one that will make the output look as good as the original.

I should also be pointed out that folks with miniDV who have plugged their camcorders to the TV via S-Video (the only option available for most) ... are actually seeing a degraded picture. I was shocked when I connected my camcorder via firewire to the 985 and sent it via component out to my TV. Its SO SO SO MUCH BETTER. Thats how I review my videos now. When I want to record the video ... I just press RECORD on the 985 (in HQ mode off course).

If your recorder does not do firewire ... I can understand your trying to knock firewire.

Hey ! Its your video and its you who will be watching it. If you are happy with seeing 310 lines on your 480 line capable display. I cannot stop you :-)

FWIW ... my aunt refuses to get a DVD player because she can't tell the difference in video quality compared to her VCR. She thinks I am full of it.

Max
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post #14 of 20 Old 08-20-2003, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
my aunt refuses to get a DVD player because she can't tell the difference in video quality compared to her VCR
Too funny. She must also enjoy rewinding tapes as well. DVD is not just about picture quality its also about instant access to any portion of the disk, less space than tapes, and extra content and features. If you've brought up these points and she's still not convinced then its truly a hopeless case. She'll probably end up spending more money replacing her VCR with a new one when it finally craps out than she would if she bought a new low end DVD player. Well there's no law against watching a crappy video signal...yet.

The Future ain't what it used to be...
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post #15 of 20 Old 08-21-2003, 12:46 PM
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Hi, I have DMR 3040 (same as HS2) and VX2000 camcorder and I can tell you that DVD in XP mode is far cry from miniDV from VX2000.
Difference between S-Video input and DV is that you get less noise and it is much less filtered for it, Noise in video is much harder to compress and it is adding a lot to size of the files.
Artur.
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post #16 of 20 Old 08-21-2003, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by umenon
Its like the difference between a TIVO built into a DirecTV box and one thats standalone ... the first TIVO is better because its all digital !
I am not saying that firewire recording isn't better than s-video, but the above statement is not really correct. Directivo is much better than standalone Tivo no only because "it's all digital", but becasue it's a lossless (bit for bit) copy of the original stream. Mini-DV via firewire to DVD is NOT lossless. Even though "it's all digital" there is lossy transcoding taking place going from DV format to DVD MPEG. The only thing that it is certain is that the resulting DVD will be of lesser quality than the DV original. The only question is how much less.

Jay
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post #17 of 20 Old 08-21-2003, 07:28 PM
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There's lots of misinformation here... Like "S-video - 310 lines of resolution"... I give up...
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post #18 of 20 Old 08-23-2003, 11:15 AM
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So for me, this conversation essentially boils down to the difference between purchasing a Panasonic E-80 (without firewire) for about what...699. msrp, compared to an E-100 (with firewire)...for I-do-not-know-how-much-msrp.

Is it worth the price/quality difference?:confused:
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post #19 of 20 Old 08-23-2003, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WOLVERNOLE
So for me, this conversation essentially boils down to the difference between purchasing a Panasonic E-80 (without firewire) for about what...699. msrp, compared to an E-100 (with firewire)...for I-do-not-know-how-much-msrp.

Is it worth the price/quality difference?:confused:
Don't forget the other choice is the E-60 for $599 msrp. It has firewire and the nifty PC Card slot feature but no hard drive.

Jay
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post #20 of 20 Old 08-23-2003, 03:59 PM
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Hmmm, interesting. Why can't I have it ALLLLL ! ? :D
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