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post #1 of 32 Old 09-02-2003, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been looking to buy a recorder for a while. Decided to educate myself on these forums first. It seems they have not perfected this technology yet. First I was looking at the new philips recorders dvd r80 specifically but heard poor reviews on philips durability. Then looked into the sony. poor editing capbilities. I dont like the dvd ram so that took panasonic out of the loop. The new pioneer models seem pretty good. I am looking for a recorder to archive my vhs tapes and hi8mm tapes. Also like to record some television . The player needs to play photo cds as well. Has any one heard anything on the new yamaha model DRX-1. Its listed on there web page. Last question is do you think higher end companies like denon will make a recorder soon. thanks for any input.
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post #2 of 32 Old 09-02-2003, 07:06 PM
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I dont like the dvd ram so that took panasonic out of the loop.
What does that mean? The Panasonics record to DVD-R for cross player compatibility. DVD-RAM allows on disk editing, and the hard drive and DVD-R dubbing capability of the E80 and E100 mean you never have to really use DVD-RAM unless you are looking to author DVD-R on your PC (using the DVD-RAM as a means to get it to your PC). The Pioneer units are generally pretty good, but they haven't released a new model in close to two years.

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post #3 of 32 Old 09-02-2003, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari
What does that mean? The Panasonics record to DVD-R for cross player compatibility. DVD-RAM allows on disk editing, and the hard drive and DVD-R dubbing capability of the E80 and E100 mean you never have to really use DVD-RAM unless you are looking to author DVD-R on your PC (using the DVD-RAM as a means to get it to your PC).
Yes, but you can't take rewritable media to another DVD player unless it is another Panasonic or DVD-RAM compatible player. That ruled out Panasonic for me. I went with the Sony and have been very happy.

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post #4 of 32 Old 09-02-2003, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drew64
I have been looking to buy a recorder for a while. Decided to educate myself on these forums first. It seems they have not perfected this technology yet. I dont like the dvd ram so that took panasonic out of the loop. The new pioneer models seem pretty good. I am looking for a recorder to archive my vhs tapes and hi8mm tapes. Also like to record some television ...
You just flunked Research 101. For some reason, you summarily dismissed Panasonic which will achieve the application you describe. It's not a case of perfecting the technology, it's a case of not looking past what's in front of you.
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post #5 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I have not heard great things about the panasonics as well. why would i want to only be able to play back dvd ram in only a panasonic player or dvd rm compatiable. I need compatiability with multiple players.
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post #6 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 05:46 AM
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I have not heard great things about the panasonics as well.
I don't know where you've been reading this, but Panasonics IMO are the best DVD recorders available. They've been in the game longer than others & have continually improved functionality & features. They've now released 4th generation recorders. Sony is only first generation; Philips, Toshiba & Pioneer only second generation.

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I need compatiability with multiple players.
Like vferrari already pointed out, use DVD-R. I only use DVD-RAM for timeshifting, editing & archiving masters. Besides, you're not going to get wide compatibility with DVD-RW/+RW either.

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post #7 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drew64
I have not heard great things about the panasonics as well. why would i want to only be able to play back dvd ram in only a panasonic player or dvd rm compatiable. I need compatiability with multiple players.
I'm not sure what your research may have uncovered regarding Panasonic performance issues, but I think that you will find that the majority of users have been very satisfied with performance and durability.

If you need compatibility with multiple players, then you would be concentrating on using the DVD-R format (which the Panasonic supports), not DVD-RAM.
[BTW, did anyone notice that Thompson/RCA has just signed an agreement to support DVD-RAM in their next line of players]

As for your argument about not wanting to be restricted to only playing back material on the unit that recorded it, you have automatically ruled out any HHD-equipped DVD recorder since hard drive contents aren't transportable in their native state.
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post #8 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 08:16 AM
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I also prefered to stay away from DVD-RAM. I've found DVD+RW to be reasonably compatible (especially with the latest models). +/- RW can be purchased in bulk (online) for way less $$$ then -RAM.

I can record to +RW for use in my portable (or sharing with others), then reuse the disc later. The +RW (or -RW) is also MUCH more likely (then -RAM) to be compatible with the majority of the PC drives being sold today.

It seems like the latest Philips models have improved (but not completely solved) the reliability issues. All I can say is personally, I'm happy with mine. (I use a satellite PVR for most of my broadcast viewing/time shifting).

If Panasonic had included -RW in thier models I'd be running thier hard drive unit today. The unit is certainly worthy of consideration.
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post #9 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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ok thanks for the input. Igot the info on the panasonics from the sound and vision magazine forum. I will take a closer hands on look at these Do you know if they will play photo cds too. Also and this maybe a dumb question( but Sony and Philips said it cant be done with their recorders) can you record one program while watching another.

I appreciate the advice thats why I camre here. Im gonna see how the pioneer 310 model is. I like the specs ive read
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post #10 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 08:46 AM
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The Pannys have met my needs well. DVD-R format is very compatible, and for me re-recordable DVD (RAM or +-RW) is a non-issue having the hard drive in the E80. Picture quality is excellent with the Panny, and editing with the hard drive is very good.
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post #11 of 32 Old 09-03-2003, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drew64
Also and this maybe a dumb question( but Sony and Philips said it cant be done with their recorders) can you record one program while watching another.
You can achieve TimeSlip/Trick Play function on DVDRW, but only when recording in DVD-VR mode. That pretty much rules out Philips and Sony's DVD+RW side of its dual format recorder as DVD+RW Recorders use DVD+VR. In fact, the new Pioneer DVR-5100H-S will have this feature.

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post #12 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 07:02 AM
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Panasonic's insistance on supporting DVD-RAM is mildly annoying, considering the pricing levels and availability of -RW and +RW media. I don't know if -RAM is a superior rewritable optical media format, but generally the -RAM discs are more expensive and harder to find (at least retail) than the other rewritable formats.

That being said, I've found that you need a really new player to support either of the + formats, which mitigates that issue somewhat. Further mitigating this is that -R media, which I've found to be the best supported media on standalone players, is at almost disposable price points when purchased in any quantity, and certainly cheaper than VHS tapes. Throw in the 80GB HDD, and there's little disadvantage to the -RAM discs.

I guess in an ideal world the Panny's would join the universal +/- R/RW world. We're starting to see more and more off brands coming out with cheap DVD writers for PCs that support this, and I suspect that there would be some cost advantages from a parts sourcing perspective as well as from a market penetration perspective.

Other than that and maybe some goofy UI aspects, it's hard to see the Panny as being at any disadvantage.
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post #13 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
Panasonic's insistance on supporting DVD-RAM is mildly annoying...
I guess in an ideal world the Panny's would join the universal +/- R/RW world.
Panasonic is hanging tough with DVD-RAM and it might be starting to pay off. Thomson/RCA just announced that DVD-RAM support will be included in their upcoming line of players. By extension, one might assume that if Thomson was to market DVD recorders they would be DVD-R/DVD-RAM.

On another front, The recent announcement from NEC and Toshiba indicates that, along with Sony, their upcoming Blu Ray recorders will only be backward compatible with dvd-r,/-rw/-ram. There will be no support for +R/RW.
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post #14 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JeffWld
Panasonic is hanging tough with DVD-RAM and it might be starting to pay off. Thomson/RCA just announced that DVD-RAM support will be included in their upcoming line of players. By extension, one might assume that if Thomson was to market DVD recorders they would be DVD-R/DVD-RAM.

On another front, The recent announcement from NEC and Toshiba indicates that, along with Sony, their upcoming Blu Ray recorders will only be backward compatible with dvd-r,/-rw/-ram. There will be no support for +R/RW.
I read someplace that -RAM had been accepted as a DVD Forum standard along with -R and -RW(?), and support for it was one of those DVD logo "standards" support issues that made it sound like all new players in 18 months or something would be able to at least play the 4.7 type IIs.

It kind of smells like + formats are going to die, but there are a shedload of blank media at the stores. I was at a Microcenter about a week ago and I'd estimate that it was 55% + media, 40% - media and 5% -RAM.
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post #15 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 02:43 PM
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JeffWld,

Thomson is adding DVD-RAM playback support, but has announced DVD+R/RW recorders. I dont think this really helps DVD-RAM's cause very much. They will still be considered 'incompatible' by most.
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post #16 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
It kind of smells like + formats are going to die, but there are a shedload of blank media at the stores. I was at a Microcenter about a week ago and I'd estimate that it was 55% + media, 40% - media and 5% -RAM. [/b]

I have noticed a LARGE preponderance of DVD+ media in my local stores (Florida). I usually have to hunt for the -R stuff, and it seems like the + stuff gets advertised much more frequently in sales flyers. I am wondering if retailers want -R to survive and are trying to push the + media instead?
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post #17 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
Panasonic's insistance on supporting DVD-RAM is mildly annoying, considering the pricing levels and availability of -RW and +RW media. I don't know if -RAM is a superior rewritable optical media format, but generally the -RAM discs are more expensive and harder to find (at least retail) than the other rewritable formats.
But DVD-RAM can be reused more times than the other rewritable formats.

Also, you can watch something else while recording onto DVD-RAM.

Some of the other rewritable DVD formats, when used in 'compatible' modes (i.e. to play in DVD players), have the same problem as videotapes -- if you delete a show then try to record again, you can *record over* other recordings.

Plus, there's a Panasonic player for under $100 (I think under $80) that'll play DVD-RAM.

BTW, I have _none_ of these recorders yet. But I'm almost certainly going to get a Panasonic one (probably DMR-E80) _because_ of the DVD-RAM support, even though I'll likely use it infrequently compared to DVD-R and the hard drive. The advantages are worth it to me. I don't care if it's the Beta of DVD rewritable formats, since I already will have DVD-R for exchange formats. The extra DVD-RAM features are worth it to me.
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post #18 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 08:16 PM
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Well for the one who says that DVD-RAM can be reused more times than the other formats , I've read that DVD+RW and the DVD-RW too can be reused something like 100 000 times...so i'm not sure you'll ever live long enough to be able to say which one is the best regardind this issue !

So THIS is not a decisive point i think.

I have been using a Phillips DVDR 880 for almost 1 year now and what i can say already is that along with the Minidisc technology when it came out, it has to be one of the only 2 products that changed my life (i think the next one will be the Tivo receivers) .

I had completely transfered all my VHS into DVDs that makes over 100 DVD, each having 4 hours of good quality recording.

The DVD R itself is a pretty easy device to use, the phillips allows U to do tons of editing with your Discs (like selecting one small picture to represent each video, title your videos, divide a video into several smaller parts each one having its own picture etc...).


I know about the divviding thing that not all the other formats can let U do that easily !
About the compatibility, I read in an internet study that the DVD-RAM recorded DVD's were compatibles with like 90 % of the DVD players tested whereas the DVD+R were compatible with like 86 % so it's not a big difference.

From my experience i used to put my DVDs in one of my friends DVD player (which is not a phillips one) and it works fine. The first time , if that doesn't work for some reasons , here is a tip that worked for me:

if your DVD's don't work at your friends' house, put the DVD into the player and press 1 with remote in order to close the door of the device. That's it it should work perfectly.

So the Phillips is a very good purchase (and now there are some new models with even more fonctions and cheaper). The only bug that i encountered in 1 whole year was some time the DVD recorder just doesn't react no more, neither to the remote control nor the buttons on the face. So that means that if for instance you were watching some DVDs , for some seconds (1 or 2 minute big max) you won't be able to stop , pause, or even turn the recorder off...

It happened maybe 5 or six times to me...but that is not a major bug as it resolves within the minute.

If you need some more information go there:

dvdplusrw.org

(sorry wasn't allowed to put the entire link as i'm a newbie !)
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post #19 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattack

The advantages are worth it to me. I don't care if it's the Beta of DVD rewritable formats, since I already will have DVD-R for exchange formats. The extra DVD-RAM features are worth it to me.
I guess that none of the anti DVD-RAM crowd own 8mm camcorders either.
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post #20 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kony
I've read that DVD+RW and the DVD-RW too can be reused something like 100 000 times...
That info must have been in one of the Philips press releases that I missed.
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post #21 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 10:01 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by kony
I've read that DVD+RW and the DVD-RW too can be reused something like 100 000 times...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That info must have been in one of the Philips press releases that I missed.

no no it was not in a phillips press releases...but anyway even if the DVD RWs could only be reused 20 times , i'm not sure that when you put like 8 buck in a blanks DVD you hope it to be rewritable till the end of times...

I just notice that most DVD that i write are for collection only (old VHS) ...so i'm not so much into the write and rewrite over and over !
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post #22 of 32 Old 09-04-2003, 11:10 PM
 
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I don't believe any of those 1000 or 10,000 uses on typical DVD-RW or +RW discs. I've found just taking the disc in/out of the drives and recording/playing them eventually gets some scratches after only 10 recordings sometimes! I'm concerned about the lifetime of -R or +R discs as well, I would look into the new TDK armor-plated DVD -R and +R discs.
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post #23 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattack
Plus, there's a Panasonic player for under $100 (I think under $80) that'll play DVD-RAM.
Panasonic DVD-S35S $79.84 - $20 rebate = $59.84, free shipping

Link to Amazon

at that price, buy two and .. er... RAM-it?

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post #24 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 07:03 AM
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I guess the love or indifference toward dvd-ram depends on your application. I collect and trade rock videos and view dvd-ram as an extension of the hard drive on the Panasonic dmr-e80. It affords me tremendous editing capabilities and lossless dubbing over dvd-r. I use the 9.4G cartridges and to me it's a removeable hard drive that does everything I need to do .... :D
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post #25 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckethead
I guess the love or indifference toward dvd-ram depends on your application. I collect and trade rock videos and view dvd-ram as an extension of the hard drive on the Panasonic dmr-e80. It affords me tremendous editing capabilities and lossless dubbing over dvd-r. I use the 9.4G cartridges and to me it's a removeable hard drive that does everything I need to do .... :D
My feeling is that having a half-dozen DVD-RAMs around is a good idea, particularly for the re-dub to HDD aspect of it, more if you do more of that.

I think it comes down to "Do I want X temporarily or forever?" If you want it forever, DVD-R makes sense, since you're not going to erase it. If you want it temporarily or plan on dubbing it a lot, -RAM makes sense.
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post #26 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kony
Well for the one who says that DVD-RAM can be reused more times than the other formats , I've read that DVD+RW and the DVD-RW too can be reused something like 100 000 times...
DVD-RW and DVD+RW are rewritable 1,000 times, and DVD-RAM is rewritable 100,000 times. See the FAQ on the dvdplusrw.org site you mentioned, which gives the 1,000 times figure for +RW.

Quote:
About the compatibility, I read in an internet study that the DVD-RAM recorded DVD's were compatibles with like 90 % of the DVD players tested whereas the DVD+R were compatible with like 86 % so it's not a big difference.
I think you meant to say DVD-R is compatible in 90% of players. Players won't play DVD-RAM unless they are specifically designed to do so, and the number of such players is relatively small.
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post #27 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 01:32 PM
 
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Are the double-sided 9.6GB DVD-RAM discs supported by the E50 model? Can you record and play up to 2 hours continuous in XP mode on a 9.6GB DVD-RAM disk on the E50 without turning the disc over since it is called "double-sided"?
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post #28 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThumperBoy
Are the double-sided 9.6GB DVD-RAM discs supported by the E50 model? Can you record and play up to 2 hours continuous in XP mode on a 9.6GB DVD-RAM disk on the E50 without turning the disc over since it is called "double-sided"?
All the Pannys should have dvd-ram cartridge compatibility. As for your second question, no, the cartridge must be physically removed and flipped over for access to the other side. The 9.4G ram disks are actually two 4.7G ram disks glued together .....

Hope this helps,

Mark
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post #29 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 04:38 PM
 
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Oh, then those 9.4GB DVD-RAM discs are no better than 2 4.7GB discs? Thats no good, I would want the ability to record continous 2 hours without removing the disc! Sounds to me like the hard drive model (E80) is required for recording longer shows/movies without interruption - then one can later edit and record onto disc from the hard disk recording.
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post #30 of 32 Old 09-05-2003, 09:00 PM
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About the compatibility, I read in an internet study that the DVD-RAM recorded DVD's were compatibles with like 90 % of the DVD players tested whereas the DVD+R were compatible with like 86 % so it's not a big difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you meant to say DVD-R is compatible in 90% of players. Players won't play DVD-RAM unless they are specifically designed to do so, and the number of such players is relatively small.


yeah that's right I meant DVD-R !
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