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post #1 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you think there is a dimes worth of difference between 2 discs at 70 minutes each(140 minutes total minutes each FR) rather than 3 at 40 minutes(120-XP- Hi speed dub ?- Examples- I am talking about recording live from a TV Football game(ABC or ESPN) or Casablanca on AMC.

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post #2 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 07:51 AM
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Unless your source is coming directly from the network/studio feed line, I'd wager that you would see no appreciable difference.
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post #3 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 04:46 PM
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I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I'm perfectly happy with recording a 2 1/2 hour program to a single disk. Even though I'm taking a resolution/bitrate hit, I consider the hassle of having to switch disks in the middle of a program far outweigh's the quality hit.

Let's face it, the technology that enables high quality video to be recorded to a single disk (i.e., dual layer disc pressing) will not be available to consumers anytime soon, and may likely be bypassed by HD recording to Blue Ray discs. I've lived with VHS quality archives for 20 years, so even a 2 MB/sec, 352x480 DVD-R recording far surpasses anything I've ever archived to VHS (or even S-VHS) and I'm perfectly happy with it. I don't even fret or lose sleep over whether I'm feeding the recorder with an S-video or Composite signal from my digital STB. They both look great and even a coax feed is acceptable if I have no other choice. (Don't get me wrong, even I consider EP mode barely watchable). I chose DVD recording not just because of recording quality but also because the medium provides other significant benefits vs. tape such as direct/random access, menus and titling information that facilitate archving, a convenient form factor, and, hopefully, longer lasting archives. In my opinion, archiving a single program to multiple disks detracts somewhat from the "convenience" of the medium.

Bottom line is that PQ is a subjective issue and only YOU can determine what minimum quality level is acceptable to you. This may take some experimentation on your part to see whether (1) the differences in quality are perceptible and (2) whether a perceptible quality hit makes a difference!

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post #4 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I just tested it- the HDD recorded source was the Tennessee/Fresno State FB game that I had recorded this past weekend done at XP. I burned one disc ,high speed, for about 57 minutes of the game. Then I burned another disc about 115 minutes at FR. I had previously deleted all commercials. No question the the 57 minutes done High speed was noticibly " purer" and clearer resolution. Don't get me wrong the FR was still damn good.

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post #5 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 09:03 PM
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That's a very different test than the example you initially proposed. Since you essentially were in SP mode (5mbps) on the FR recording, you wound up doing a comparison of XP vs. SP.
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post #6 of 14 Old 09-03-2003, 09:55 PM
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I think XP and SP are actually recorded at the same resolution, but SP uses a lower bitrate (more compression). I've found that the differences become quite apparent when played in slo-motion. When played at normal speeds, though, SP holds up pretty well.
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post #7 of 14 Old 09-04-2003, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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NO- Jeff wild - I did not do sp on the FR- - IT WAS XP BOTH- BOTH were XP original record HDD( I just burned differently)- So my test stands - I promise you that. There is no doubt that hi speed dub is noticibly superior to FR. If you thought my original post was different than that tell me. Here is my conclusion: Take a 150 minute football game on the HDD at XP. I say that if I hi speed dub 3 discs at 50 minutes each, it will have better resolution than 2 75 minute discs at FR-High speed. My point is- I will always have a better resolution if I high speed versus flex record, if I want to use an extra disc for hi speed. Surely you cannot disagree.

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post #8 of 14 Old 09-04-2003, 06:56 AM
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HoustonGuy:

You won't get any disagreement from me about the quality difference that is realized between standard dubbing mode vs. high-speed. High-speed is a bit-for-bit clone while standard dubbing mode triggers a re-encode.

However, my response was based on the way you phrased your initial example: ["Do you think there is a dimes worth of difference between 2 discs at 70 minutes each(140 minutes total minutes each FR) rather than 3 at 40 minutes(120-XP- Hi speed dub ?"] This was taken as meaning that you would be burning "live" from the source (not the HDD) with a 70 minute programmed disc time in FR. This interpretation was further reinforced in my mind when you went on to say: "Examples- I am talking about recording live from a TV Football game(ABC or ESPN) or Casablanca on AMC." As a result, it appeared as if you were attempting to compare a live recording with a lower bit rate against an XP recording dubbed in high-speed mode.

I think that some additional confusion stemmed from an error in your first test report when you stated:

"I burned one disc ,high speed, for about 57 minutes of the game. Then I burned another disc about 115 minutes at FR."

I think what you really meant was that the FR disc was 1 hour and 15 minutes (75 min.) and not 115 minutes. It was because of this that I replied that the test was different since the FR recording would have been only 5 minutes short of 2 hours, which is essentially SP mode.

In any case, I'm glad that Panasonic has added high-speed dub mode for those who want to maintain the highest quality possible.
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post #9 of 14 Old 09-04-2003, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
I burned one disc ,high speed, for about 57 minutes of the game. Then I burned another disc about 115 minutes at FR.
Since the original source was recorded in XP mode, isn't your first dub a bit for bit copy (high speed mode), while your second dub (FR) requires a re-encoding? If so, this is not a fair comparison.
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post #10 of 14 Old 09-04-2003, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff -you are right- I meant 75 minutes or one hour and 15 minutes not 115 minutes.

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post #11 of 14 Old 09-06-2003, 08:31 AM
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This begs the question on recording quality.

What is better?
Source to HDD SP, to DVD-R SP?
Source to HDD XP, to DVD-R SP?

Is the reencoding irrelevant if your master source is of better quality?

What is better, ignore FR? FR fiddles with the bitrate depending upon motion in the source, so going from static (waiting for snap) to action and back causes more dynamic encoding.

I recorded Thursdays game from a HD source (digital cable box on network HD channel, via S-Video) in SP, and both the SP in FR mode and SP discs don't look as nice as I expected. Way too much shimmering, etc.
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post #12 of 14 Old 09-06-2003, 12:30 PM
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In my experience, PVerdieck, The first option would give the better quality. I see much more of a performance hit by having to do a re-encode, than I do when I record is SP instead of XP...

EJ

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post #13 of 14 Old 09-06-2003, 02:49 PM
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Does dubbing from a Play List always involve a re-encoding? I know you can't do a high-speed lossless dub with a Play List. I'm wondering whether to record on the HDD at XP or SP if I am going to make a Play List and then dub at SP (or maybe FP).

John
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post #14 of 14 Old 09-06-2003, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
What is better, ignore FR? FR fiddles with the bitrate depending upon motion in the source, so going from static (waiting for snap) to action and back causes more dynamic encoding.
I don't think this is true. FR just sets the average bitrate/resolution consistent with the time of the recording and the available disc space AT THE BEGINNING OF THE RECORDING. All the Panny recored modes, including FR, use variable bit rate encoding to accommodate fast action and relatively static scenes so you should see approximately the same visual effect for a static to action transition scene (and corresponding change in bitrate) for an XP recording as for an ~1-Hr. FR recording, etc...

Vic

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