How to record HBO's programming to DVD-R - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 07-25-2004, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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With HBO's current CGMS-a signals embedded in the programming, will the Sima CT-2 GoDVD! allow me to record programs to DVD-R so that they can be watched in other rooms of the house. Seems like every store is selling this including Crutchfield. I don't know what would be better this or a clarifier. I'm just looking to use my recorder legally and perhaps make also some fair use back-ups of some scratched DVDs (before they start dropping out).

I should also ask if either the CT-2 or Clarifier will 'change' PQ at all, even in a minimal way when it's enhancements are bypassed.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 07:31 AM
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For backup up DVDs you are much better off doing that on a computer if you are comfortable. See www.dvdrhelp.com for more info. I have experimented with DVD player (hacked frimware) to DVD recorder and while it does work, you loose the Dolby Digital sountrack (you are left with two channel) and there is a noticable drop in PQ.
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post #3 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 09:07 AM
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I record HBO to DVD all the time, I've not noticed any quality/playback problems. I just record from the S-video out of the cable box into the S-Video in on the DVD recorder, but I've not had to use a SIMA or any such thing to stabilize the signal at all.

I am using Time Warner Cable, if that makes any difference. Of course I have not tried to make copies of the DVD's I've made from HBO, perhaps that would no longer work.
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post #4 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 11:08 AM
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I can record from HBO to my Panasonic E80H with no problems at all! I use DirecTV. Using S-video.

Scott

"you can never doubt what nobody is sure about" Willy Wonka
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post #5 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 11:10 AM
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Recording HBO from DISH receiver HD to Philips DVD and not having any problems.
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post #6 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 11:39 AM
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I think CGMS-a is supposed to disallow ADDITIONAL copies after the first. So you can record no problem, theoretically, but you cannot make copies of the recordings either analog or digitally. Not sure if it works well though, or even if it is working at all.
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post #7 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 11:52 AM
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I don't have any issues recording HBO from my VOOM box to my Panny E80 via s-video.

HD Media Keen Videosaurus
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post #8 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 12:15 PM
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I see two posibilities:

1. There is no copy protection at all on the program you are recording
1. There is a "Copy Once" CGMS flag and the E80 in honoring it.

I don't have HBO but could get it. Anyone out there has an oscilloscope and can look at the HBO's video going to the Panasonic? If you can, I can tell you what to look for, to determine if ther is any CGMS-A signaling at all.
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post #9 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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According to Crutchfield's tech. support, the Sima CT-2 GoDVD will NOT strip out CPRM or CGMS-A signal from the program source. Looks like I'll have to go with the Clarifier.

Have a good one.
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post #10 of 42 Old 07-26-2004, 05:26 PM
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How about the Video Filter? It is CGMS-A compatible.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter

According to HBO, you are not supposed to record any of the HBO on-demand movies. Only regular HBO.

Has anyone tried recording HBO on demand? If you can record it, it means that they arenot actually implementing CGMS-A yet.
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post #11 of 42 Old 07-27-2004, 11:57 AM
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I just finished recording the full season one of Showtime's Dead Like Me from on-demand with no problem. I'll try some HBO shows.
Using the newly installed Comcast Motorola 6208 STB via S-video connection to the Pioneer DVD recorder.
Have also been recording HD programs to the DVR in the STB and then sending them (in SD of course) to the DVD with no problem. (Collecting the new Twilight Zone shows from INHD.)
Recording to the DVR and then to the DVD in SP mode yields a perfectly acceptable recording on my 46" MITS and allows me to insert the title card captured from the DVR so it shows in the menu of the DVD.

I have seen enough to know I have seen too much. (A League of Their Own)
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post #12 of 42 Old 07-27-2004, 02:36 PM
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Either the Pioneer recorder doesn't respond to CGMS-A commands or the
Showtime's Dead Like Me from on-demand, is not been protected by your provider.

It's quite possible that the programs are not protected yet but they will be later. Also, the Pioneer recorder can record programs that the Panasonic can't, if something other "Copy Once" CGMS is sent to it.

You can probably also record HBO on Demand the same way with the Pioneer. Let us know. Thanks
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post #13 of 42 Old 07-28-2004, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Logic Design

It's quite possible that the programs are not protected yet but they will be later. Also, the Pioneer recorder can record programs that the Panasonic can't, if something other "Copy Once" CGMS is sent to it.
Thanks
You keep saying this but it is simply not true, at least on my units, both the E-80 and E-85.

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post #14 of 42 Old 07-28-2004, 08:06 AM
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I have performed detailed tests on the E85 and E55. It consisted of making short recordings from DVD to these units. When I sent the Copy Once CGMS-A code, they did not record. I did exactly the sme thing with an E50 and it worked.

It is a fact that the protected DVD's I am using to record from, have other kind of protection (like Macrovision AGC and Colorstriping ), that the HBO programming doesn't have such that, the E85 would not record anyway even if sent the copy once command. I can't say what exactly HBO is doing yet because I have not looked at the video signal they send. If you can record HBO programming and they are sending copy once CGMS-A, then yes, the E85 responds correctly to the command.

All I am saying right now, is that I don't think any of us know if HBO is really protecting the content. One way to find out is tro try to record HBO-On-Demand which according to them, you should not be able to.

I will get a hold of another E85, Subscribe to HBO and look at the video they send with an oscilloscope. That way, there is no doubt if they are sending any kind of protection with the programming.
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post #15 of 42 Old 07-28-2004, 08:53 AM
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Please keep us posted. If presumably the E55/E75/E85/E95 & later models have this 'bug', then I better hold on to my E80.

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post #16 of 42 Old 07-28-2004, 10:34 AM
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FYI: The following received from Dish Network regarding HBO coding.

"Thank you for your email correspondence. I have no information concerning any encoding you may want to address this with HBO. Please go to www.hbo.com

Sincerely,

Mark H.

Technical Support

Dish Network"

This was the reply I received after enquiring about HBO signal coding.
Regards
TW
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post #17 of 42 Old 07-29-2004, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Logic Design
I see two posibilities:

1. There is no copy protection at all on the program you are recording
1. There is a "Copy Once" CGMS flag and the E80 in honoring it.

I don't have HBO but could get it. Anyone out there has an oscilloscope and can look at the HBO's video going to the Panasonic? If you can, I can tell you what to look for, to determine if ther is any CGMS-A signaling at all.
Yes, I have oscilloscopes but the E80H puts an ICON next to the program that states if it's copy all, copy once, copy never etc.

I've never had a problem recording HBO from DirecTV and making duplicates, nor have I ever seen the copy once or copy never flag used.
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post #18 of 42 Old 07-29-2004, 01:03 PM
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I just got my Panasonic E85 yesterday and I was able to record from Comcast's Digital HBO to my HDD and then I burned it to DVD-R with no problem.
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post #19 of 42 Old 08-02-2004, 07:24 AM
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Had to go out pf town for a few days and I am now back.

Will try to order HBO today from my cable company...Brighthouse Networks.

I know how to tell for sure if HBO is including any kind of copy protection in their programming. Will post on this thread the results in a couple of days.

Tom Roper, Are you able to look at lines 20 and 21 of the video field? That is where the "copy once" instruction will be? If you see a logo on the screen, it is probably after those two lines.
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post #20 of 42 Old 08-02-2004, 08:00 AM
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Logic, you'll have to tutor me on the oscilloscope.

I could connect the probes to the composite video output easy enough, but I don't know the pin assignments for S-Video, don't have any way to break it out without opening the connector.

I can capture and a store a single waveform easy enough..I have a Tektronix DSO and a FLUKE 123 scope meter.

But that said, why? I KNOW there is no copy once instruction embedded because the E80 has icons tthat tell you if the program is copy always, copy once, or copy never. I don't see the point. With DirecTV, all I've ever seen from HBO is copy always, and no difficulty recording or making multiple dupes by high speed dubbing from the HDD to DVD-R or DVD-RAM.
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post #21 of 42 Old 08-02-2004, 10:48 AM
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Tom Roper,

Sorry but I did not understand about the icons. That's something new to me. If the icons tell you the kind of copy protection in the signal, then there is no reason why to look at the signal. I never saw anything like those icons with the E85 I experimented with. I did not have it long enough to know if it had that capability.

Do you have access to Pay_Per_View channels? According to HBO, there is protection on those and you should not be able to copy them.
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post #22 of 42 Old 08-02-2004, 11:12 AM
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Hi Logic,
I have access to PPV channels on DirecTV, but I have not ordered from them.

I'm sure the E85 had the icons. On the E80, it shows up on the title list found under the "Select Programs" tab from the dubbing menu, and the dubbing list itself.

I just tried this on HBO-HD, no copy restriction in place at this time.
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post #23 of 42 Old 08-02-2004, 02:08 PM
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i use an mpeg2 capture board and then burn to dvdr
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post #24 of 42 Old 08-03-2004, 02:26 PM
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post #25 of 42 Old 08-03-2004, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
The broadcast flag only applies to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable and satellite companies already have their own digital-rights management in place.
I'm not losing sleep over this. If you can record it once, and get it to the PC, you're home free. If you make a career out of standalone DVDRs and neglect the PC based tools, you get what you get.
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post #26 of 42 Old 08-03-2004, 04:54 PM
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The point is, DirecTV does not seem to be agressively using DRM, and they have it now. The article is pointing at what's coming to over the air broadcasts in 2005.
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post #27 of 42 Old 08-04-2004, 07:01 AM
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I am somewhat familiar with the broadcast flag ruling by the FCC.
It's something to maybe worry about in a year or two.

We are all trying to understand better the copy protection schemes and what could be done about them if and when they are implemented. This post originally addressed HBO and their claim that beginning on June of this year, they will start implementing "Copy Once" protection in their programming. According to all I have heard so far, sounds like they are not, at least everywhere.

Just want to make anyone here aware, that if users would like at some point, to provide their own CGMS-A code to any video source, I have the means to do that. For example, if you receive a signal that has "Copy Once" or "Copy Never" flags, It could be changed to "Copy Always" or any other of the four possibilities. The fact that no one has yet provided proof that HBO is implementing "Copy Once" signaling, means that we don't even know for a fact that Panasonic units like the E85, really honors this. I tried it once and it did not. If users are getting "Copy Always" icons next to their recordings then we have not verified anything yet.
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post #28 of 42 Old 08-04-2004, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
The fact that no one has yet provided proof that HBO is implementing "Copy Once" signaling, means that we don't even know for a fact that Panasonic units like the E85, really honors this. I tried it once and it did not. If users are getting "Copy Always" icons next to their recordings then we have not verified anything yet.
Good logic, Logic! (Roger, Roger ;) )


Here is the CPRM wording on the E80 from the manual p. 15:

No recording Limit:
Record-->HDD-->Dub-->RAM
Record-->RAM-->Dub-->HDD
Record-->DVD-R-->Dub-->You cannot dub

*************************************

Recording Limited to One time:
Record-->HDD-->Transfer-->RAM
Recored-->Ram-->Dub-->Content is duplicated on HDD but cannot be played
Record-->You cannot record on DVD-R

**************************************

Recording not possible:
Record-->You cannot record/dub on any media
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post #29 of 42 Old 08-04-2004, 08:23 AM
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Light goes on in head...

Is CGMS-A the same thing as CPRM?

From p. 54 in the E80 manual (Glossary):
CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media)
CPRM is the copyright protection technology that is used to protect broadcasts that are allowed to be recorded only once (e.g. some CATV broadcasts).
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post #30 of 42 Old 08-04-2004, 08:41 AM
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Here's what I'm getting at...

If CPRM is something that has to be embedded into line 21 of the VBI, a cable provider could do that on analog, but seemingly could only do it on digital if the set top box recognized a flag encoded into the mpeg stream telling the decoder to insert the CPRM instruction into the NTSC analog VBI at line 21.

What I'm hypothesizing, is could the responisibility for inserting CPRM into line 21 of the VBI fall onto the set top box which is performing the digital to analog conversion? Obviously, the cable provider could do it directly on analog, but on digital, only if the set top box supported the feature since it's receiving an encoded mpeg stream, and not 29.97 fps 480i.
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