Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

...I disagree that there would be no "market" for a BR or DVD disc [AVCHD] HD recorder which acts in an analogous fashion to how VCRs recorded in your absence, straight to an archivable medium, in realtime. The vast majority of US people don't even have their TVs connected to their computers, yet being able to archive easily and cheaply would interest them. Think of how many grandmas are out there who buy these "digital picture frames", as an example, to see digital images because using a computer screen to view family images just isn't their thing/speed.

I'm not an economist, but if there were a sizable enough market, wouldn't they manufacture the product and put it for sale on the market?
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post #512 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 08:42 AM
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There can be many reasons why a product might be kept off the market besides "market demand".

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #513 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 08:47 AM
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Please be more descriptive... What are you suggesting?
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post #514 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 10:37 AM
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Reasons why a product might not be put on the open, commercial market, yet there would be a consumer demand for it, might include, as examples, legal, political, financial, or product liability issues/repercussions the general public very well may not be privy to.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #515 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I disagree that there would be no "market" for a BR or DVD disc [AVCHD] HD recorder which acts in an analogous fashion to how VCRs recorded in your absence, straight to an archivable medium, in realtime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

I'm not an economist, but if there were a sizable enough market, wouldn't they manufacture the product and put it for sale on the market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

There can be many reasons why a product might be kept off the market besides "market demand".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

Please be more descriptive... What are you suggesting?

What the heck, since this thread is likely gonna be unstuck anyway, I'll play one more time: MichaelLAX, m. zilch is simply playing the "conspiracy theory" card in the latest round of our navel-gazing AVS game of "waah waah why can't we buy the recorders we want anymore?" The game has been going on since 2006, when every DVD/HDD recorder except the Magnavox was pulled from USA shelves, never to return or be upgraded.

Many here cannot accept the simple fact that the tide changed and 95% of consumers now have no interest, NONE, in playing with removable media recorders. The invention of TiVo, and its perversion into the now-ubiquitous cable/satellite rental PVR, changed everything. Why? Because they do exactly what typical consumers wanted, but which was not possible previously. VCRs were bought by virtually everyone because there was no alternative: if you wanted to rent/buy videos to play at home, you bought a VCR. The recording feature was the initial selling point for early adopters, but once the corner video store arose most VCRs were primarily used as players. Remember the old cliche that most of the population had their VCR clock perpetually flashing "12:00" because they didn't know how to do anything but press the play button? The minority that actually did still want to record benefited from the fact the recording option had been established early on, and did not cost extra to incorporate in a VCR.

When DVD was introduced as a replacement for VHS, it couldn't record at first. Virtually no one cared: it was an overnight sensation because it made movie rentals more available and movie purchases far more affordable. The few people still interested in recording still used their VCRs. When DVD recorders first arrived, they were a pain to use and five times the cost of a VCR. The result? Epic fail. By the time they added an affordable HDD feature to make DVD recording truly practical, TiVo and the rental PVR had begun their encroachment on the consumer mindset. Huge flatscreen HDTVs began invading every home, rendering SD recording on DVDs obsolete. Throw in the shady manipulative practices of American cable companies, who put every possible obstacle in the path of DVD recorders, and the result is a closed system. The cable rental PVR, and to a lesser extent TiVo, are the only HDTV-grade recorders that integrate seamlessly with cable service. Most Americans have cable, so most Americans opt for the idiot-box rental PVR. The end.

And before we start in with the affiliated "why no American BluRay recorders?" question, lets not forget the price issue. When DVD recorders first debuted, the typical VCR was $99. No one was willing to pay $499 for a DVD recorder that had no real perceived advantages, couldn't record much past two hours per DVD in passable quality, and was harder to use. Models with HDD started at $900, which was just not ever going to work at retail: they might as well have not bothered. By the time mfrs got their act together to sell $449 DVD/HDD recorders with TVGOS and other conveniences, the consumer tide had turned completely to rental PVRs. The immensely botched USA digital broadcast transition and attendant draconian mfr regulations were the final nail in the coffin: recorder mfrs bailed in late 2006, leaving behind only the DVD/VHS combos. Those few of us who could appreciate the value of a $449 DVD/HDD recorder scrambled to buy up the last remaining units.

This state of affairs had a total chilling effect on any chance of an American BluRay recorder. DVD could just about get away with not having an HDD in the recorder: BluRay requires it. So before we even upgrade to BD, base price would have to at least equal the final $449 DVD/HDD price- which laid a gigantic egg. Add in the (excessive) cost of the new "only-in-USA" ATSC tuner, and you're up to $599. Add BluRay, and you're up to $1499 (price of the first Panasonic BD/HDD recorder). Having already been burned to cinders by $449 DVD/HDD, no mfr was ever going to commit suicide with a $1499 USA-spec BD/HDD, so we never got one and now never will.

Things were different in Europe and Asia because there is no cable service to screw things up, DTV broadcasts are standard across countries, satellite service is standardized, and a free TiVo-like EPG system is available. Without cable around to stunt every operational feature, DVD/HDD recorders were perceived as a very good value at $599 and sold very well, esp the Sonys. The first couple rounds of BluRay/HDD recorders did OK even at $1500, but eventually price resistance set in just as it had in North America. TiVo-like rental boxes that could record in full HDTV swept Europe as more and more households bought large screen TVs. Sales of DVD/HDD took a sharp dive in 2009, accelerated by best-selling Sony Europe's stupid decision to have Samsung OEM what have to be the worst DVD/HDD recorders in history (as replacements for the stellar previous Sony models). Just as in USA, most mfrs pulled DVD/HDD from the market, even the Magnavox mfr, leaving only Panasonic today.

Current European Panasonic BluRay and DVD recorders with HDD are a pale imitation of their previous models, with authoring and editing features thrown under the bus to accommodate demand for more TiVo-like operation. Any day now, Panasonic will bail like all the other brands did, and the entire global market will consist of sealed HDD-only TV recorders. It isn't a conspiracy by Hollywood, it just kind of worked out in their favor. Cable killed the disc recorder in North America, they remained popular overseas until recently when the proliferation of streaming, HDTV and mobile devices caused a drop in demand for disc burning. The typical consumer, everywhere in the world now, has lost interest in disc recording: all they really want is point-and-click, EPG-driven, HiDef timeshifting boxes.

A few years ago, Hollywood made an alliance with Toshiba and other memory chip mfrs to develop compact recorders that put HiDef TV directly on chips that could then be plugged into cell phones, iPods, laptops, tablets, TVs, etc. (the idea being to give younger consumers the device flexibility they craved while preserving some degree of DRM). The concept had reached a fairly advanced stage of development when it dawned on everyone that NetFlix web delivery had pretty much killed the market for such a chip recorder. Once again, the immediate-gratification on-demand playback paradigm had killed consumer need or interest in recording for themselves.

Aside from geeks willing to trick out their PCs with recording hardware, the age of consumer recording on a mass scale using simple dedicated devices is over forever. And it wasn't Hollywood or govt conspiracies that did it: consumers rolled over and handed victory to them by dint of laziness and dependence on convenience. You want to talk conspiracies? Wait about ten years, until all the leftover old recorders bite the dust and Hollywood/cable/internet providers finally have us completely by the short hairs. You're gonna see prices to "conveniently access media" skyrocket beyond what anyone today believes possible. All the cheapskate idiots who are now dementedly whining about "NetFlix Price Gouging" won't know what hit them when NetFlix finally stops selling rentals below cost.
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post #516 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 10:45 AM
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Thank you for taking the time and effort for that well written response!

I still use my Panny DVD-VCR Recorder (less and less frequently) to burn to DVD-RW:

1. Digitize VHS tapes that I find in my storage or on eBay;

2. Digitize Laserdiscs that are unavailable on DVD that I find on eBay; and

3. Digitize SD material.

I then transcode everything digital to AppleTV format, save it on my video hard disk library and serve it up to my AppleTV for viewing (and wipe the DVD-RW for reuse).

HD content starts with my Hauppauge HDPVR 1212...
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post #517 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

I still use my Panny DVD-VCR Recorder (less and less frequently) to burn to DVD-RW:

1. Digitize VHS tapes that I find in my storage or on eBay;

2. Digitize Laserdiscs that are unavailable on DVD that I find on eBay; and

3. Digitize SD material.

I then transcode everything digital to AppleTV format, save it on my video hard disk library and serve it up to my AppleTV for viewing (and wipe the DVD-RW for reuse).

HD content starts with my Hauppauge HDPVR 1212...

Why wouldn't you use the 1212 for all three scenarios in addition to HD content?
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post #518 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

MichaelLAX, m. zilch is simply playing the "conspiracy theory" card in the latest round of our navel-gazing AVS game of "waah waah why can't we buy the recorders we want anymore?"

Incorrect, and I would appreciate it if you would please not jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth explaining, "How m. zilch [sic] really feels". [I'm paraphrasing.] I never said anything about any kind of "conspiracy".

I simply stated that there are many reasons why products are or aren't on the open market, besides just consumer demand. If you disagree with me on that point, that's fine, but please don't read into what I've written and make it into something it isn't. Instead, simply take what I've written at face value. Thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #519 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Why wouldn't you use the 1212 for all three scenarios in addition to HD content?

As I mentioned the Panny DVD Recorder is being used less frequently, and hence the Hauppauge is being used more frequently...

There are some times that I just like the convenience of starting the content on my DirecTV DVR and pushing the Record button on the Panny remote to get to 1 hour or 2 hours as is needed and not have to use the computer for this step.

Of course the computer is always needed for step two in either case, to transcode to AppleTV specs.

The output of the Hauppauge is too complex for the AppleTV to handle, whether the original content was HD or SD, so I transcode it down (primarily from CABAC to CAVLC; which does not degrade the image quality, it only increases the size of the file).

It is going to be interesting to see if the newly released AppleTV 3 will be able to play the raw output of the Hauppauge with just a simple container change from m2ts to mp4...

Also: the Panny is hardwired to the DirecTV DVR (S-Video 1) and my old Laserdisc player (S-Video 2), while the Hauppauge is hardwired to only the DirecTV DVR (component).
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post #520 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 12:58 PM
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Aren't there 3 different output modes for the 1212, have you tried them all for compatibility with your AppleTV? Just info gathering here.
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post #521 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 01:28 PM
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Point taken, m. zilch: apologies for the wording of my reply to MichaelLAX. No disrespect to you personally was intended, I used your post as a jumping off point to cover all the issues we've jawed on here for half a decade. Its just that your remark along the lines of "other forces must be in play, I can't believe there's THAT little consumer demand to justify no recorders" has been posted by members over and over and OVER again, different wording but same idea, month after month, year after year. Time and again the answer has been, "sorry, no other forces, consumers just don't give a @#*& about archiving anymore, if there was ANY money to be made you bet your ass Sony and Panasonic would not have left it on the table for Funai."

As a former video store owner, I'm still plugged in to all the trade reporting on consumer electronics and home media. To trade journalists, recorder mfrs made it very clear six years ago why they were leaving USA, and shortly thereafter Canada: the ATSC digital broadcast system sucked like a trampled lemon wedge on the floor of a bar at 4AM, it was incompatible with existing production of recorders for the rest of the world, the FCC edict to implement it prematurely while still including conflicting analog tuners was a logistic and engineering nightmare, and it would force recorder prices back up to $599 at a time when Americans had already flatly refused to buy $449 analog recorders. They continued with DVD/VHS because a significant minority of Americans who still hadn't gotten around to dubbing their VHS to digital was willing to pay $329 for an ATSC combo unit, but the HDD feature was sacrificed (having been completely replaced by cable/sat rental PVR in the American psyche).

Thats really all there was to it. Some of us hate that it was that cut-and-dried, and understandably look for "other causes" in the vain hope they could be overcome and perhaps advanced Disc+HDD recorders would return to North America. That hope has now been extinguished: Europe has moved on to discless PVRs, and even the Japanese home market has rejected BluRay/HDD recorders. Disc is dead, aside from the pre-rec market. As fewer and fewer people feel the urge to archive, those left give up and just buy the commercial releases, esp of TV series. Timeshifting has moved to PVRs and increasingly to web delivery. I personally don't get the fascination with viewing online: all the sites have major issues and the experience is more annoying than anything else. But everyone I know, even the elderly, are doing Hulu and NetFlix and network sites: where the mass market goes, so goes the electronics and delivery system.
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post #522 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Aren't there 3 different output modes for the 1212, have you tried them all for compatibility with your AppleTV? Just info gathering here.

The characteristics of the resulting video file from the output of the 1212 are determined by the chipset contained therein. While there is some tweaking that you can do by software presets, none of them will change the output from CABAC to CALVC, convert the frame rate from 59.940 back down to 29.97, nor otherwise make its output compatible with the AppleTV.

While there are 3 input methods to the 1212 to input video/audio (composite, S-Video & component video and analog RCA or digital Toslink audio), there is only one output: component video with either analog RCA audio or digital Toslink audio.

Am I missing something? Is there some software presets that you are referring to? I have long abandoned the Windows software that comes with it and exclusively use Steve Toth's HDCapture for the Mac.

For those interested, here is an analysis of a sample output file from a 720p DirecTV capture (HDCapture has the ability to convert the m2ts to a mp4 container very quickly with no transcoding involved):

Code:
* * * MediaInfo Mac 0.7.36.0 file analysis report.
* * * MediaInfo Mac is ©2010 by Diego Massanti - http://mediainfo.massanti.com
* * * MediaInfoLib by Jerome Martinez - http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net
Created on: May 9, 2012 1:41:03 PM PDT
Report for file: 20120418_161501.m2ts

General / Container Stream #1
  Total Video Streams for this File.................1
  Total Audio Streams for this File.................1
  Video Codecs Used.................................AVC
  Audio Codecs Used.................................AC3
  File Format.......................................MPEG-TS
  Play Time.........................................1mn 55s
  Total File Size...................................21.4 MiB
  Total Stream BitRate..............................1 546 Kbps
Video Stream #1
  Codec (Human Name)................................AVC
  Codec (FourCC)....................................27
  Codec Profile.....................................Main@L4.0
  Frame Width.......................................1 280 pixels
  Frame Height......................................720 pixels
  Frame Rate........................................59.940 fps
  Total Frames......................................6941
  Display Aspect Ratio..............................16:9
  Scan Type.........................................Progressive
  Color Space.......................................YUV
  Codec Settings (Summary)..........................CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
  QF (like Gordian Knot)............................0.020
  Codec Settings (CABAC)............................Yes
  Codec Settings (Reference Frames).................4
  Video Stream Length...............................1mn 55s 799ms
  Video Stream BitRate..............................1 081 Kbps
  Video Stream BitRate Mode.........................VBR
  Bit Depth.........................................8 bits
  Video Stream Size.................................14.9 MiB (70%)
  Color Primaries...................................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
  Transfer Characteristics..........................BT.709-5, BT.1361
  Matrix Coefficients...............................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
Audio Stream #1
  Codec.............................................AC-3
  Codec (FourCC)....................................129
  Audio Stream Length...............................1mn 55s 808ms
  Audio Stream BitRate..............................384 Kbps
  Audio Stream BitRate Mode.........................CBR
  Number of Audio Channels..........................6
  Audio Channel's Positions.........................Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling Rate.....................................48.0 KHz
  Bit Depth.........................................16 bits
  Audio Stream Delay................................387ms
  Audio Stream Size.................................5.30 MiB (25%)
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post #523 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

Am I missing something? Is there some software presets that you are referring to? I have long abandoned the Windows software that comes with it and exclusively use Steve Toth's HDCapture for the Mac.

I was simply referring to this from the product description page. I am in no way an expert, just going off what I've read in the past. I would have thought the last one mentioned, .MP4 might work.

Record formats
There are three H.264 formats you can choose when recording a video:

.TS, which is a generic 'transport stream' compatible with many digital media players
.M2TS, which is compatible with the Sony Playstation3
.MP4, which is compatible with the XBox360

The .TS and .M2TS files are AVCHD compatible, and can be used to burn Blu-ray compatible disc recordings. These files can be burned onto a standard DVD+R or DVD+RW disc for playback in a Blu-ray disc player using the included Arcsoft TME Disk Create application. Approximately 2 hours of HD TV recorded at 5Mbits/sec can be put onto a standard DVD+R or DVD+RW disc.

The included TME Media Converter program may also be used to convert the .TS file to other formats compatible for playback on an iPhone and Ipod.
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post #524 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 02:06 PM
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These are "container" specifications, each of which contain a video component and an audio component (and other more complex files NOT from the raw Hauppauge could contain subtitles and other components).

While yes, you can get an mp4 container that is acceptable to the AppleTV, it is the specifications of the video and audio contained therein, that keep the raw output from working on the AppleTV.

The last line quoted must be the Windows way to convert m2ts files to mp4 containers; like the Convert function in the HDCapture for the Mac does.

I have, as suggested, used Toast to burn the raw m2ts AVC output files to a DL-DVD in BR format, and the HD content plays nicely on my Samsung Home Theater's BluRay player. But for the most part, I have abandoned optical media and gone "discless!"... with the exception of prerecorded commercial BR discs.
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post #525 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 03:01 PM
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+1 Yes, I agree archiving "discless" is the best, longterm way to go, at least for tech savvy folks like all of us, but average Joes/Joans and grandma/pa might not be there yet.
---

Back to the topic of standalone, consumer grade, HD (Blu-ray) disc recorders, and their possible demand and marketability in the US. I thought instead of the random speculations of internet forum members like me and others, some here might be interested in what industry experts like CNET have to say, [this taken from an article about some JVC professional Blu-ray recorders, then being released]:

"Not a month goes by without us getting an e-mail or two from consumers looking for a set-top Blu-ray recorder. "They're available in Europe and Asia," goes the common refrain. "When will they be coming here?" Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news: JVC has just announced two new Blu-ray set-top recorders for the North American market. The bad news? They're expensive models aimed squarely at professional videographers who are mastering their own HD discs (think wedding photographers and the like). They're not intended for home use and--because of their pro-targeted features--wouldn't really be useful for home recording anyway.

Don't blame JVC for the disappointment here. The reason that consumer Blu-ray recorders don't exist in the U.S. is that they'd be so jammed full of copy-protection schemes (to placate movie studios and TV networks) that they'd be all but unusable for recording TV shows anyway."[emphasis mine]

Of course this was written way, way back in the fall of 2009 though, so I'm sure things might be drastically different today.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #526 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Back to the topic of standalone, consumer grade, HD (Blu-ray) disc recorders, and their possible demand and marketability in the US. I thought instead of the random speculations of internet forum members like me and others, some here might be interested in what industry experts like CNET have to say, [this taken from an article about some JVC professional Blu-ray recorders, then being released]:

There are MANY who would argue c/net is about the most useless bunch of tools ever to try and pass themselves off as a tech site. I would tend to give more credence to any random poster on AVS than I would any industry article on c/net: their record has been none too good.

Quote:


"Not a month goes by without us getting an e-mail or two from consumers looking for a set-top Blu-ray recorder. "They're available in Europe and Asia," goes the common refrain. "When will they be coming here?"

Taken literally, this means three years ago (never mind now) the twits who run c/net claimed to receive "one or two" requests per month for BluRay recorders. Thats about two dozen a year, being generous. I guarantee you, all 24 of those requests came from AVS members, and I could write you a list of their names . Panasonic and Sony were not interested in selling 24 BD recorders a year back in 2009, and its not even on their radar in 2012. Sony quickly walked from its own creation: even in Japan there are no Sony-branded BD recorders. If that doesn't tell you something about worldwide lack of interest, nothing will. The Japanese collect test patterns, for pity's sake: they record EVERYTHING. If they've lost interest, its game over for everyone else as well.

Again, no disrespect to you, m. zilch: I know you're digging this stuff up to see if anything has changed since 2009. It hasn't, those "24 requests" to c/net have probably dropped to what you can count on the fingers of one hand in a year. A bunch of us on North American forums like this are clamoring for a new BD/HDD recorder: lets be generous and say 300. Of those 300, perhaps 20 would be willing (and able) to afford what they sell for in England, Germany and Australia: $899+ (US). Everyone else is delusional, believing "economy of scale" would make a $379 BD/HDD recorder possible.

Um, no: if they barely move them in Europe or Japan where consumers had no price resistance until very recently, they aren't gonna be able to get enough volume to cut the price in half for Americans. Pioneer, Sony, and Panasonic already tried that trick with DVD/HDD recorders, and got kicked in the gonads for their trouble. Funai/Magnavox agreed with WalMart to sell DVD/HDD below cost at $229, and they still rot in the warehouse until "discontinuation rumors" make them sell out once a year or so. And of those that sell, 50% are returned for refund because they're "too complicated to figure out." The brainwaves of the typical American consumer flatline the minute they touch video equipment: if it doesn't read their minds to record their favorite shows, their eyes glaze over and it goes back to the store.

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Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news: JVC has just announced two new Blu-ray set-top recorders for the North American market. The bad news? They're expensive models aimed squarely at professional videographers who are mastering their own HD discs (think wedding photographers and the like). They're not intended for home use and--because of their pro-targeted features--wouldn't really be useful for home recording anyway.

JVC couldn't make a reliable disc recorder if their entire board of directors was taken hostage, and that goes double if it involves an HDD. Their track record is atrocious, even the "semi-pro" DVD/HDD and DVD/MiniDV models that were precursor to these newer BD units. They're desperate to move some units in North America, so they repackaged a generic BD/HDD to bait "event videographers" and other "pro" users, figuring a "pro" could write off a $1300 recorder that self-destructs in three months. Plus, they can avoid including the ATSC tuner, meaning they don't have to change anything but the voltage setting on the power supply.

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"The reason that consumer Blu-ray recorders don't exist in the U.S. is that they'd be so jammed full of copy-protection schemes (to placate movie studios and TV networks) that they'd be all but unusable for recording TV shows anyway."[emphasis mine]

And with that, c/net proves what a bunch of ignorant tools they are. News flash: the recorders sold in other countries include just about the same level of DRM and recording restrictions as the North American models. There were a couple of minor exceptions with older DVD/HDD models, but the BD/HDD machines are crawling with restrictions inherent to both BluRay itself and the Japanese brands being in bed with Hollywood on multiple business levels. Hollywood has nothing to do with why BluRay recorders aren't sold in USA/Canada: they aren't sold here because unlike every other civilized region in the world, we are in thrall to cable TV service.

Cable does not want subscribers to use their own recorders when it is so profitable to rent them proprietary PVRs, so they use every technical trick they can muster to frustrate integration of "outside" recorders. There may be 2000 members on AVS that would rather die than pay a PVR rental fee, but there are 20 million cable consumers who are more than happy to skimp on their insulin or baby formula to pay the fees: they like their cable PVRs and TiVos, and they LOVE the one-click integrated EPG timeshifting on simultaneous channels. Oh, and by the way- they have no intention, none whatsoever, of paying $499-$999 for a generic non-integrated recorder that is really only useful for off-air antenna reception (which they don't get) or dubbing from a camcorder (which they now do on their laptops or tablets). They view $10-15/month for the PVR as small potatoes compared to large upfront cost for a recorder that can't do what they need.

There aren't enough consumers in North America willing to pay for an expensive recorder that can't be easily used with cable: thats all there is to this story. Even if we posit 10,000 AVS members as being interested, thats a drop in the bucket. Perhaps if our government paid more attention to consumer cable rights and less attention to their disastrous rush to sell off the public airwaves for pennies on the dollar, recorders would have been more viable here. But right here, right now in 2012, its all water under the bridge- the worldwide consumer has joined America in its disdain for generic disc recorders, be they DVD or BluRay. The machines are in decline everywhere, from Japan to New Zealand to Europe to Australia. Those of us still arguing for them are considered lunatics who want to live in the past: video disc recorders are about ten minutes away from 8-track audio tape as an obsolete format. We AVS types are interested- but nobody else is. Mfrs need volume or a product dies: so recorders are dying.
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post #527 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

+1 Yes, I agree archiving "discless" is the best, longterm way to go, at least for tech savvy folks like all of us, but average Joes/Joans and grandma/pa might not be there yet...

Actually the viewpoint of the major content distributors and the consuming public (at least in the United States) are jointly moving towards a business model of low cost rental streaming per title or ala carte streaming on a monthly fee.

So the average Joe/Joan and Grandma/Pa is glad to pay a couple of bucks to watch what they want, when they want, INSTEAD of all of the hullaballo of archiving. It is the technophile who continues to want to archive now...

The consuming public discovered that, instead of impressing their neighbors with a huge library of titles, if they want to watch it a second or even a third time, rent it again -- it is cheap enough!

There is no going back to the good old days in Hollywood, where consumers would buy the movie on VHS and then buy it again (at "sale" vs. "rental" prices) on DVD! Those days are over...

In Hollywood, this dilemma is known as trading analog dollars for digital dimes and any distribution executive who has not recognized the new reality can join all of the former recording industry executives at the unemployment offices.
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post #528 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 07:01 PM
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Yes, MichaelLAX so true for most collectors. I’d like to add that my local Wal-Mart sells movies that are only a few years old for $5 a pop on DVD. They also sell 20-movie John Wayne collections for $5. I once bought a 20-movie spaghetti western set for $5 just to watch it once and give it away. Stuff like Beverly Hillbillies can be had for under $10 – all episodes.

The thing is I don’t collect any of the above, I only collect concerts and although the majority of concerts broadcast can be purchased on DVD even BD – there are some that will never make it to disc or online – you record it off TV or you will never see it again and that’s the kind of stuff I collect. I also like to make my own compilations just from single songs you may see on TV shows – say BB King performing one song on Johnny Carson – stuff I have yet to see on disc. I don’t want to buy a hundred hrs of Johnny Carson Material just to save 20 minutes of songs performed.

So collectors like me will be out of luck when our recorders die. By that time the copy protection flags will be so hard to break that even an archive geek using a PC device like the Hauppauge 1212 won’t be able to help us archive. Oh and I realize that Hollywood couldn’t care less about collectors like myself.
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post #529 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

The thing is I don't collect any of the above, I only collect concerts and although the majority of concerts broadcast can be purchased on DVD even BD - there are some that will never make it to disc or online - you record it off TV or you will never see it again and that's the kind of stuff I collect.

Yeah, same situation here. I just like to add that many shows don't look/sound the same when they go BR - DVD, because many scenes are cut off, the music changes, etc.

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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

So collectors like me will be out of luck when our recorders die. By that time the copy protection flags will be so hard to break that even an archive geek using a PC device like the Hauppauge 1212 won't be able to help us archive. Oh and I realize that Hollywood couldn't care less about collectors like myself.

Meanwhile in the other side of the ocean (HK) there's even a full HDMI [HCDP capable] recorder.
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post #530 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...Oh and I realize that Hollywood couldn’t care less about collectors like myself.

Actually they care quite a bit about you! But you get to archive nonetheless!!!

And what you are doing is quite important. The music licenses for release on DVD are much different than for broadcast on TV/Cable with the latter being more easy to obtain. So you are most likely to see what you desire on TV and NEVER see it being released on DVD/BR.

A great example of this is the following:

Back in the 2003 Mike Smith, the former lead singer of The Dave Clark Five suffered a severe injury after a fall at his home and became paralyzed. In about 2006, Paul Shaffer (of the David Letterman house band/CBS Orchestra and benefactor of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame) decided to promote a "British Invasion" benefit concert which he held at BB Kings in Manhattan.

He invited some of the classic "British Invasion" acts of the 1960s to attend and the format was for them to sing one or two of their original hits and then a dedication song of The Dave Clark Five.

The concert included Billy J. Kramer, The Zombies, Peter and Gordon, Denny Laine (of the "Go Now" Moody Blues) and the tribute band Fab Faux.

I heard about it and placed an advance order on Amazon for the DVD, after I watched a special on HDNet of about 60 minutes of the concert (one hit song and one Dave Clark Five song each).

It turns out that Dave Clark controls all the publishing to the groups original music and refuses to grant the needed licenses for a DVD release.

Luckily I kept my original recording and digitized it, so at least I can enjoy that limited portion of the concert. Smith died about 2 weeks before the group was inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame...
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post #531 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

The thing is I don't collect any of the above, I only collect concerts and although the majority of concerts broadcast can be purchased on DVD even BD - there are some that will never make it to disc or online - you record it off TV or you will never see it again and that's the kind of stuff I collect.

So collectors like me will be out of luck when our recorders die. By that time the copy protection flags will be so hard to break that even an archive geek using a PC device like the Hauppauge 1212 won't be able to help us archive. Oh and I realize that Hollywood couldn't care less about collectors like myself.

+1

Expand that reality to tv shows and movies and you hit the nail on the head. There is so much old quality content out there that just will never see the light of day in a permanent, ownable format due to copyright tug-of-wars between corporate owners, that when you find a rare broadcast or stream of it, you have to be opportunistic to capture it somehow, or you may never get another chance again to see it.
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+1

Expand that reality to tv shows and movies and you hit the nail on the head. There is so much old quality content out there that just will never see the light of day in a permanent, ownable format due to copyright tug-of-wars between corporate owners, that when you find a rare broadcast or stream of it, you have to be opportunistic to capture it somehow, or you may never get another chance again to see it.

On that issue, I do not know if I agree; give me 3-5 examples, please.
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post #533 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

On that issue, I do not know if I agree; give me 3-5 examples, please.

original Mighty Mouse cartoons
Cold Case (I'm currently archiving, as music rights would be prohibitive for a DVD release)
Night Court (I currently own the first 4 seasons released on DVD, who the hell knows if the other 5 seasons will ever see the light of day.)
Picket Fences (only 1st season released, I got the other 2 seasons recorded from Hulu Plus 6 months ago, and they are already no longer available there)
A&E Evening at the Improv (just recorded 52 episodes from Hulu Plus)

...just off the top of my head.

EDIT:
60s Batman tv series
Ghost and Mrs. Muir tv series
Sid and Marty Krofft shows
Muppet Show (many seasons still unreleased)
Now and Again
Wonder Years (how could I forget...got those from Amazon Prime)
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post #534 of 585 Old 05-09-2012, 09:50 PM
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I think this thread needs to be unstuck. It makes no sense.

ROFLMFAO -- nothing can kick-start a dead thread like the suggestion to terminate its sticky status. Give it a week and it will run out of steam and die again. LOL

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post #535 of 585 Old 05-10-2012, 05:42 AM
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ROFLMFAO -- nothing can kick-start a dead thread like the suggestion to terminate its sticky status.

Or just posting in it There are better ways to request a thread be unstickied than making a post in the thread.
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post #536 of 585 Old 05-10-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

The music licenses for release on DVD are much different than for broadcast on TV/Cable with the latter being more easy to obtain. So you are most likely to see what you desire on TV and NEVER see it being released on DVD/BR.

A great example of this is the following:

Back in the 2003 Mike Smith, the former lead singer of The Dave Clark Five suffered a severe injury after a fall at his home and became paralyzed. In about 2006, Paul Shaffer (of the David Letterman house band/CBS Orchestra and benefactor of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame) decided to promote a "British Invasion" benefit concert which he held at BB Kings in Manhattan.

He invited some of the classic "British Invasion" acts of the 1960s to attend and the format was for them to sing one or two of their original hits and then a dedication song of The Dave Clark Five.

The concert included Billy J. Kramer, The Zombies, Peter and Gordon, Denny Laine (of the "Go Now" Moody Blues) and the tribute band Fab Faux.

I heard about it and placed an advance order on Amazon for the DVD, after I watched a special on HDNet of about 60 minutes of the concert (one hit song and one Dave Clark Five song each).

It turns out that Dave Clark controls all the publishing to the groups original music and refuses to grant the needed licenses for a DVD release.

Luckily I kept my original recording and digitized it, so at least I can enjoy that limited portion of the concert. Smith died about 2 weeks before the group was inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame...

Very interesting and I have a few examples almost exactly the same from various broadcasts I archived. Unfortunately I don't have the broadcast you specifically mentioned. Unfortunately my cable co pulled HDNet as they couldn't come to a carriage agreement.

.
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Originally Posted by profhat View Post

Yeah, same situation here. I just like to add that many shows don't look/sound the same when they go BR - DVD, because many scenes are cut off, the music changes, etc.

Absolutely. Although many DVD/BR discs may ad bonus material not broadcast I have shows that were more complete on broadcast then on disc. I also have shows that had a nice audio track on broadcast but some fool producer decided to ad annoying audience cheering tracks and stupid surround echoing to the disc, ruining the original performance

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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

+1

There is so much old quality content out there that just will never see the light of day in a permanent, ownable format due to copyright tug-of-wars between corporate owners, that when you find a rare broadcast or stream of it, you have to be opportunistic to capture it somehow, or you may never get another chance again to see it.

You said it.
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post #537 of 585 Old 05-10-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by michaellax View Post

on that issue, i do not know if i agree; give me 3-5 examples, please.

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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

original mighty mouse cartoons
cold case (i'm currently archiving, as music rights would be prohibitive for a dvd release)
night court (i currently own the first 4 seasons released on dvd, who the hell knows if the other 5 seasons will ever see the light of day.)
picket fences (only 1st season released, i got the other 2 seasons recorded from hulu plus 6 months ago, and they are already no longer available there)
a&e evening at the improv (just recorded 52 episodes from hulu plus)

...just off the top of my head.

Edit:
60s batman tv series
ghost and mrs. Muir tv series
sid and marty krofft shows
muppet show (many seasons still unreleased)
now and again
wonder years (how could i forget...got those from amazon prime)

i concede!

Reading the wiki on Cold Case and a thread discussing the influence of music rights and its effect on the lack of a DVD release is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Case_(TV_series)

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/24...make-it-to-dvd
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post #538 of 585 Old 05-10-2012, 06:37 PM
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i concede!

Reading the wiki on Cold Case and a thread discussing the influence of music rights and its effect on the lack of a DVD release is interesting:

That's why (I guess) you can't easily record a TV/Cable/Sat show. OK, I'm exaggerating. Now you can record it right to your Cable/Sat DVR in beautiful 1080i HD even with 7.1 DD, but how in this world do you dub it from there? (I'm not talking about TiVo or HTPCs )
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I digitize with the Hauppauge HDDVR 1212 in 720p, 5.1 (I could set it to 1080i, but I do not) and then transcode to be compatible with my AppleTV.
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post #540 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by profhat View Post

That's why (I guess) you can't easily record a TV/Cable/Sat show. OK, I'm exaggerating. Now you can record it right to your Cable/Sat DVR in beautiful 1080i HD even with 7.1 DD, but how in this world do you dub it from there? (I'm not talking about TiVo or HTPCs )

On older content, I'm not too concerned with that, as it wasn't in HD to begin with. I'm just glad to be able to save it for posterity.
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