Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 02:30 PM
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Are you getting Harry's Law (the latest legal drama from David E. Kelly)?

Not on DVD, Hulu, Netflix or even NBC.com.
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post #542 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

Are you getting Harry's Law (the latest legal drama from David E. Kelly)?

Not on DVD, Hulu, Netflix or even NBC.com.

Nope, not yet. Most new shows do get their time in the syndication/streaming/DVD sun, though. Patience, grasshopper.
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post #543 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Nope, not yet. Most new shows do get their time in the syndication/streaming/DVD sun, though. Patience, grasshopper.

Did you say that about Cold Case?

Harry's Law seems to be in some sort of legal-limbo between NBC (its network) and Warner Bros Television (its producer)...

So I am archiving now and not "wishing" later!

I do not think that Kelly's The Practice ever was completely released to DVD.

Syndication; yes, but what about the risk that extra minutes will be shaved out for more commercials?

I was actually foolish enough to order cable (even though I was a DirecTV subscriber), so that I could receive FX (at that time a "cable-only" exclusive) so that I could record the complete X-Files. What a waste of time! I DID however get the rebroadcast of the episode "Home" which was banned for rebroadcast by FOX!
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post #544 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 02:52 PM
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Good for you that you are archiving now. Were you fortunate enough to start from the beginning or get re-runs? If not, your next best bet would be streaming. Even shows like Picket Fences (another Kelly show) that had legal-limbo issues for years finally made it to the Hulu/Netflix/Amazon realm eventually, if only for a short while.
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post #545 of 585 Old 05-11-2012, 02:59 PM
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I became a big fan of Kelly's when I discovered Season Two of The Practice (took me years to view season one; again thanks to FX) and it had a crossover episode to his new show "Ally McBeal." Rare for shows on two different networks (ABC and FOX)!

I'm watching the Season Two opener as we speak!
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post #546 of 585 Old 05-12-2012, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

...
Picket Fences (only 1st season released, I got the other 2 seasons recorded from Hulu Plus 6 months ago, and they are already no longer available there)
A&E Evening at the Improv (just recorded 52 episodes from Hulu Plus)
...
wonder years (how could i forget...got those from amazon prime)
...

Does that mean you can archive a TV series from a compilation set of DVDs that are rented from Netflix? Raises an interesting question...
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post #547 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 12:38 AM
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Okay, Citibear, I understand your aversion to "conspiracy theories." But, please explain one thing to me - when JVC made their BD recorder for the US market, why didn't they just include an input that would allow us to record HD from a DVR? Would it have been that expensive, or difficult? I don't mean a tuner, or timer recording, just an input. Wouldn't that simple addition have increased US sales?
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post #548 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 01:10 AM
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Is this the JVC you are asking about: JVC SR-HD1250US Blu-Ray Disc and HDD Recorder?

Here is a review from an Amazon customer:

I will try to give anyone interested in this unit some important informa to consider. It did not work for me at all, but it might work for you. To begin the unit is marketed by JVC but I do not think it is their original product. The unit comes in a basic box with no company advertising on it. It does say JVC on the unit but on the menu screens during operation make no reference to JVC at all. It looks very much like the TASCAM Blu-Ray recorder and I would guess it is the repackaged same unit.

First the unit will record to BD-R and BD-rewritable formats as well as DVD-R and RW (not DVD+R or RAM). It will read from +R discs. It is copy protected so if you think you can duplicate store bought DVDs and BDs, you can put that thought to rest....you cannot. All material must go through the HDD first. There is no direct recording to blank media. This is not a bad thing as you can do editing when the title is on the HDD. The unit has several recording modes for High Def and Standard Def. It has NO flexible bitrate modes so you must use the standard modes. For example, for HD recording it offers modes of 2 hours / 4 hours or 6 hours on a 25g disc. The times modes are the same for SD. You can do direct dubbing from a disc to HDD as long as it is copy protected. This means you can dub your TV recordings of CSI to the HDD. It will re-encode the material at the mode selected, for instance SP for 2 hours (SD). This would be a very good thing if you had commericals recorded and you wanted to remove them and then dub the edited title to another disc. You can do those kinds of edits. If your original recording had chapter marks they will appear in the same spots on the HDD dub so you can remove them and input them where you want, or delete portions of the recording, give it a title and select a thumbnail image that will appear on the final menu. These things are pretty nice options.

This is where my problem with the machine came into play. First it has no COMPONENT INPUT, so for me recording HD could only be done from a HD video camera, which I do not own. My cable TV HD box has only a component output but no HD-DV output, which is what this unit requires for HD dubbing, so I could not dub recorded HD to this machine. I could have lived with that.

On page 28 of the manual it gives recoding lengths for each recording mode and how they apply to each recording format. For example, if you record a title in the SP mode, which is 2 hour on standard definition 4.7g DVD-R it would translate to 10.5 hours on a 25g BD-R. To any reasonable person this would imply that this machine could actually put standard defintion on a BD-R? It cannot. If you record in standard definition you must dub it to a DVD-R or RW. It cannot be dubbed to BD-R. So why tell the buyer that you can get 10.5 hours of standard definition on a BD-R disc, when this machine cannot do it. I do not know, I tried to ask JVC and got no response.

This is what happens if you try. I wanted to take all 14 Sherlock Holmes movies starring Basil Rathbone and put them on 2 BD-Rs in standard definition. Using page 28 as a guide, I did my math and they would fit easily with an hour to spare on each disc. This would be using the SP mode for standard definition. First I had to dub them from the original discs which I recorded off TCM. I had one disc per movie recorded at approximately 7.2 mb/s which is a high birate and would be re-encoded to the SP level of 5.0 but this would mean very little actual loss of image quality. The encode in real time. I did all 14. I should have done one and tested it. It would have saved me 20 hours.

The actual dubbing process went smoothly and all 14 titles were nicely stored on the HDD. I did have to pick the thumbnail images for each and input titles, which is horribly difficult on this machine compared to DVD recorders from Panasonic and Pioneer. After completing this, I inserted my first blank BD-R, only to see the message, disc is incompatible. I had purchased 20 GIGABLOCK discs on Ebay as they were the only ones I could find that said they would work with this unit....they do not. I went to Bestbuy and bought a three pack of Verbatim at $15. The machine recognized that disc and formated it. So stay away from cheap discs in this unit. I followed the dubbing from HDD to BD-R instructions and when the unit detected that a BD-R was inside, I got the message, titles will be dubbed in HD qualty only. I could not change this. I thought well let us try. I selected the first title to be dubbed and received a message that read "some titles cannot be dubbed). This is all it said, just some titles canot be dubbed. This message does not appear anywhere in the manual. No matter what title I selected no standard definition title could be dubbed to a BD-R disc. I put in a standard DVD-R and it would have dubbed it with no problem. I checked in the manual under record mode convertion thinking that I could somehow tell it to do what I needed done, afterall the page 28 graph, said a BD-R could hold 10.5 hours of SD on a disc. But I found that only HD titles on the HDD can be converted down to SD, so you can take a high definition title and put it on DVD-R but it is re-encoded in the mode to fit on the disc.

So that is it for me on the unit, I hope it helps people make a decision. It was a horrible mistake for me, but luckily I had a 15 day return policy to protect me, so I am only out shipping cost. If your HD cable box has a HD-DV output or you want to put your HD videos from your camera on disc, this unit may be very good for you. It just did not work for me. A word of warning even on some of that, as I understand it, many HD broadcasts have copy protection built it which allows only one copy of the material. For this unit that would likely be the transfer to the HDD, it then may not allow dubbing to disc, unless it was converted to SD.

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post #549 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 06:22 AM
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Nice find MichaelLAX, sounds like about what I'd expect from that recorder, although I'd never seen such a complete review before. JVC made a BD recorder that is so crippled no one would want it. Then when it won't sell or people return them in droves they say, "see, no one is interested in BD recorders" Reminds me of a movie about electric cars by a certain conspiracy theorist(MM) but no way the bear is going to like that movie
Either the people designing such a recorder as the one reviewed above are totally clueless about what the average person would want to do with a BD recorder, they wanted it to fail or they were so paranoid about being sued by content providers they basically designed something no one would want(in which case I wonder why they even bothered)
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post #550 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 06:28 AM
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Have you seen Chris Paine's sequel: "Revenge of the Electric Car"... Well worth seeing!
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post #551 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX View Post

Does that mean you can archive a TV series from a compilation set of DVDs that are rented from Netflix? Raises an interesting question...

Nope, nothing like that. Just using my Roku to stream the episodes and record them via line inputs to my Mag. If they are available on DVD I most likely already purchased them.
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post #552 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 11:01 AM
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Good answer!
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post #553 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 11:15 AM
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Season sets on DVD is worth the purchase as opposed to spending the time and effort to record the entire series/season via the streaming route. Time is money. I only spend the time archiving if the show is not available for purchase, and doesn't appear it will be.

The only exception to that is if the DVD release has been modified in some way, like replacement music because the rights to the original music couldn't be obtained, then I will try to archive from a streaming source.
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post #554 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

...The only exception to that is if the DVD release has been modified in some way, like replacement music because the rights to the original music couldn't be optained.

When has that happened?
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post #555 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 11:21 AM
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Off the top of my head: Daria

This is where I get the bulk of my information: www.tvshowsondvd.com
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post #556 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Okay, Citibear, I understand your aversion to "conspiracy theories." But, please explain one thing to me - when JVC made their BD recorder for the US market, why didn't they just include an input that would allow us to record HD from a DVR? Would it have been that expensive, or difficult? I don't mean a tuner, or timer recording, just an input. Wouldn't that simple addition have increased US sales?

Kjbawc, excellent point, but I'm confident you are just wasting your time. He's made up his mind regarding "how things are" and any info from industry experts such as CNET which contradicts his way of thinking he simply dismisses and trashes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

There are MANY who would argue c/net is about the most useless bunch of tools ever to try and pass themselves off as a tech site.

This is clearly a rather childish ad hominem attack, but since he is incapable of contradicting the actual point being made by CNET (highlighted in bold text in my last post), using third party references (he could have easily done by merely linking to, um, one of the more "trustworthy" industry tech sites than CNET), it's all he's got.

As for why JVC didn't include HD inputs (notice he completly trashes them too), of course we'll probably get some song and dance about "How they were too stupid to realize it might increase sales", "Everything they make breaks anyway, so who cares", "Their target audience would only want SD inputs, which they did include.", "The design they were stealing from didn't have HD inputs so neither did theirs"....etc. etc.

It's not worth pursuing, my friend. Frankly, I doubt I'll even bother to read any more of his rants "explaining how things are" either, so if he asks any questions of me, don't be surprised if they go unanswered.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #557 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

JVC made a BD recorder that is so crippled no one would want it. Then when it won't sell or people return them in droves they say, "see, no one is interested in BD recorders" . . . Either the people designing such a recorder as the one reviewed above are totally clueless about what the average person would want to do with a BD recorder . . . I wonder why they even bothered)

jjeff, I don't think that is a fair assessment. The JVC was never designed for the "average" person or home recording enthusiast and it certainly was never designed with DVR functions in mind. It is a professional level recorder for professional videographers and doesn't hide it -- it says professional in its description. The video inputs and component outputs are BNC cables. That tells you everything you need to know about who the target audience is -- and it's not us. All the input connections on that unit tell you it is made for HD cameras -- either transferring pre-recorded footage from a camcorder through firewire or recording primary footage from a camera plugged in via BNC connector. If the person above who bought and reviewed the unit had done a bit more research on the unit itself he would have seen that it was not something he should have bought for his particular needs -- recording HD from a DVR or BluRay player.

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post #558 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

It is a professional level recorder for professional videographers and doesn't hide it -- it says professional in its description. The video inputs and component outputs are BNC cables. That tells you everything you need to know about who the target audience is -- and it's not us. All the input connections on that unit tell you it is made for HD cameras -- either transferring pre-recorded footage from a camcorder through firewire or recording primary footage from a camera plugged in via BNC connector.

And that primary footage camera is recording SD, only, into that BNC input (or one can use the s-video in, which it also has) because, um, "professional videographers don't like recording in HD, they prefer SD"?

That BNC input is just a plain vanilla composite video in*, SD only, just like the yellow RCA jack consumer decks have, but a more secure connection that can't be pulled out accidentally (you need to unlock its bayonet, first, by rotation). You also can use a typical RCA cord with a simple $1.99 adapter if you choose.

The JVC's exclusive HD input is firewire (and camcorder only USB), which can be safely locked from recording copy protected material, should the content providers wish it to be so, through the use of 5C [although many cable companies don't even bother guarding that connection, other than for On Demand material, perhaps because there are so few HD recording devices out there which even take it, for example the now defunct D-VHS decks.]

*1 Vp-p, 75 Ohm, just like on every other consumer machine. Source.

edit to add: I see now it even comes with the RCA adapter, thanks to the same source
edit to add #2: "Videos that are copy-controlled cannot be imported." p23 of the owner's manual

Source:http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/DV...ction_Book.pdf

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #559 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 06:51 PM
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^^^ I guess I don't see your point here. It's a professional level deck designed for camera usage and not for the home consumer. Are you disagreeing with that? The first page of the link you supply kind of beats you over the head about its intended use.

Since it's a professional deck for cameras I find it hard to find fault in its design because it didn't include inputs that would be of use to a different target audience but of little or no use to its intended audience.

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post #560 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 07:58 PM
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I see, professionals (their target audience), must prefer SD analog inputs then, which it has two kinds of. Check.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #561 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 09:49 PM
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Again, what is your point?

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #562 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

All the input connections on that unit tell you it is made for HD cameras -- either transferring pre-recorded footage from a camcorder through firewire or recording primary footage from a camera plugged in via BNC connector.

"...and recording that primary footage from the HD camera in glorious 480i resolution, standard definition, because that's the only kind of resolution that BNC jack can record, but more importantly it is what professionals want when recording primary footage from an external HD camera through analog connections, so it would be pointless for them to include HD analog inputs for such purposes since they'd go unused.", I guess.

Makes perfect sense.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #563 of 585 Old 05-13-2012, 10:37 PM
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Oh, OK. So the BNC input is not for an HD camera. I made a mistake and you choose to jump on that -- fine. I'm going to bring this back to the real point of my post, which was a response to jjeff. That point being you can't run down the JVC for not being a very good consumer recorder and not recording in HD from a variety of HD sources like component or HDMI, when it was never designed for such use or such users. It was designed to take input from cameras -- HD, SD whatever. If you don't think it's good for its intended use -- well then, that's another story and one I'm not debating here.

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post #564 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 12:16 AM
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^This JVC unit(s) is crippled for the exact same reasons any consumer, standalone BD recorder would be as well, in my opinion, and therefore both are of little value to a large segment of potential buyers and are hardly even made.

Back peddling arguments along the lines of "It doesn't have HD analog inputs only because nobody, who they are marketing to, would want them" was perhaps not your point, afterall. Sorry if I misunderstood you on that point. My bad.

I'm also sorry if I lashed out at you. It was the thread in general I should have been addressing with my anger, not you.


Back on topic.

Unlike HD digital connections, HD analog ports are extremely difficult to safeguard against unauthorized copying, which is why they are quite rare on US consumer, standalone, HD recording disc devices (in fact non-existent, as far as I know), and recently are now even becoming more rare as an output, due to the analog sunset. [Which is why I bought two BD decks last year to put in storage, even though I didn't really need them! I wanted to get in under the wire.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #565 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Back on topic.

Unlike HD digital connections, HD analog ports are extremely difficult to safeguard against unauthorized copying which is why they are quite rare on consumer, standalone, HD recording devices (in fact non-existent, as far as I know), and recently are now even becoming more rare as an output, due to the analog sunset.

Just for information, the analog HD input ports are not so inexistent at all:

Gefen HD Personal Video Recorder



Cypress HD Personal Video Recorder




Pixel Magic MTV7000D

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post #566 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by profhat View Post

Just for information, the analog HD input ports are not so inexistent at all:

What I really meant to say was: "HD analog ports are extremely difficult to safeguard against unauthorized copying, which is why they are quite rare on US consumer, standalone, HD recording disc devices (in fact non-existent, as far as I know)".

I have fixed my post, thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #567 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 07:54 PM
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Ok I do think there is a kind of conspiracy behind consumer and semi-professional disc recorders lacking proper HD inputs. That JVC blu-ray recorder is targeted for event videographers such as weddings, church services etc. Sure many semi-pro cameras have a firewire out to transfer HD to the deck but what if you do a multi-cam shoot and use a switcher without firewire? Or what if you use a firewired camera that is incompatible with the JVC? Or what if you need deck with HD-SDI to deck HD dubbing? Or what if you use extra long cable runs that firewire can't handle - I can think of many example were an event videographer would need either component or HD-SDI inputs.

By the way the normal way of transferring digital video by most broadcast facilities and large production and post production houses is to use HD-SDI. Firewire transferring is almost unheard of and analog-component-HD I/O is nowhere as popular as HD-SDI, which is uncompressed digital-component without copy protection - a single BNC cable.

Since HD-SDI is digital component uncompressed its compatible with all cameras, decks, switchers using it - and it can be used for fairly long runs. FireWire on the other hand is native and you run into major compatibility issues.

SDI- and HD-SDI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface

Example of broadcast and pro production gear using HD-SDI
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-x...duct-PDWF1600/

Bottom line is that JVC HD blu-ray disc deck is very limited for pro use and I wager the lack of proper I/O has to do with higher up powers not wanting HD-SDI and analog-component I/O due to the high-up cry-babies crying copy-fowl. I am sure JVC would love to equip the deck with proper I/O and would sell many more decks.
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post #568 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...Bottom line is that JVC HD blu-ray disc deck is very limited for pro use and I wager the lack of proper I/O has to do with higher up powers not wanting HD-SDI and analog-component I/O due to the high-up cry-babies crying copy-fowl. I am sure JVC would love to equip the deck with proper I/O and would sell many more decks.

This suggestion is just way out of place historically.

Consumer electronic companies have always taken the lead in offering equipment that can be used for, shall we say, piracy! They don't care about copyright and other intellectual properties other than their own.

They have always rationalized it on the "it has legal uses" defense.

SONY put its corporate *ss on the line with the BetaMax and the Supreme Court only granted them a victory because it did not want to declare millions of common citizens to be copyright infringers. I doubt the case would be decided the same way today.

Since that time SONY complicated its corporate life with purchasing huge libraries and production entities of copyright content (Columbia Pictures, Columbia, Epic Records, music publishers, etc.).

But the other electronics manufacturers could care less! You think the owners of the DVD and BR patent licenses lose sleep over all the lost copyright royalties income lost due to outright copying on their burning equipment?!?

You must not have been born when the explosion of blank audio tape cassettes started the whole "home taping" phenomena which lead to the same thing in video years later.

Were you born when HD-DVD and BluRay started a format war (avoided in the 90s by the merger of the two distinct DVD formats for the common good) and by the time BR won, the consumer marketplace discovered two things:

1. It did not want to pay to own; it only wanted to pay to rent; and

2. Disc -> anticipation, waiting and then satisfaction. Streaming -> GET IT NOW!

$1,000 to burn to a BR in realtime? No me, maybe you!
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post #569 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 08:30 PM
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Electronic companies are forced to abide by certain rules.

Example 1
VCRs required to have an AGC circuit that will not allow recording of copy-protected material.

Example 2 (although a little looser than my above example
Most DVD players abiding by A) region coding and B) Copy protection flags.

As to my JVC blu-ray example lacking the proper I/O interface. I highly suspect that in order to equip it with HD-SDI
A) You need to pay some kind of emnormous fees
B) You need to meet the strick requirements to include such interface.

By the way Michael I was born in 1961 and every year I see stricter and stricter rules for manufacturers have to abide by A) I/O rules and B) copy protection rules. Take HDMI - full of crappy restrictions for example. How much cheaper and easier and more compatible without idiotic crippling handshakes it would be to use HD-SDI instead of HDMI for consumer use. Remember DVI? Why you think it was replaced by HDMI for consumer TV and BD use. How about new BD decks crippling the analog outs in the near future - no Michael I wasn't born yesterday
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post #570 of 585 Old 05-14-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by super eye View Post

bottom line is that jvc hd blu-ray disc deck is very limited for pro use and i wager the lack of proper i/o has to do with higher up powers not wanting hd-sdi and analog-component i/o due to the high-up cry-babies crying copy-fowl. I am sure jvc would love to equip the deck with proper i/o and would sell many more decks.

+1

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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