Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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In an effort to possibly save some repetition in posts, and avoid confusion, this seems to be a question that pops up once a week or so.

No current DVD recorder, available in the American market at least, will record high definition content IN HIGH DEFINITION RESOLUTION. DVD recorders can only record in standard definition which is 480i. You cannot record in 480p, 720p, 1080i or 1080p.

You CAN record hi definition content from a sat box or STB, depending on the hookup, but at best it will be in 480i resolution. The recordings should still be very good, they just won't be in high definition. Your STB or source signal has to be able to transmit the hi-def content via component, S video or composite- -not all do. NOTE--If you have a Directv Hi def box (and this may apply to other STBs) you need to manually SET the Directv box to output at 480i OR YOU WILL NOT GET A SIGNAL WHEN YOU HOOK IT UP TO A DVD RECORDER! Until the HD format wars are resolved and we start seeing some HD-DVD players, HD-DVD recorders are still a ways off.

Even if you have a hi-def DVR like a Directivo, while the Directivo will store the high def signal to its hard drive, so you can watch in high definition from your Directivo or Dish hard drive, it is downconverted to 480i when outputted to a DVD recorder for archiving(and it does not even stay in the digital domain, as it has to be converted to analog, then back to digital).

The only current way to actually record in hi-def resolution, other than a hi-def STB hard drive, is via a D-VHS recorder.


AUDIO ADDENDUM: No current DVD recorders can record a Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS multichannel digital signal either. Recorders have digital OUTPUTS (usually optical, some coaxial), but only record in Dolby Digital 2.0 or uncompressed PCM digital stereo audio. No standalone DVD recorders have digital audio inputs or allow recording of a 5.1 signal at this time. PCM audio is uncompressed,unlike DD, and is far superior than DD 2.0 for sound quality, especially for music. Beware the cheap DVD recorder brands, as many only have mono tuners and won't even record in stereo.
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post #2 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 03:24 PM
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squonk, can you make this a sticky?
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post #3 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 03:30 PM
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If you were refering to my post, if you had read it you would know that I had it set to 480i, and it wasn't a HD program.
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post #4 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie1617 View Post

squonk, can you make this a sticky?

I would if I knew how. Is that up to a moderator?
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post #5 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch65 View Post

If you were refering to my post, if you had read it you would know that I had it set to 480i, and it wasn't a HD program.
Butch

Not referring to anyone's post in particular--its just a question we seem to see quite frequently and may save some people search time.
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post #6 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 04:12 PM
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Thanks squonk. I know I've addressed this question many times. I think you're as weary reading my response as you are reading the question. But what am I to do if I'm not asked the one thing about which I have an answer?
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post #7 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 04:34 PM
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squonk, ask the moderators to make this into a sticky!

You could mention DVHS, but it is such an incredible niche market, it might not be worth the effort.

You might tell 'em that until you see the release of BluRay, or HD DVD recorders, with enormous fanfare and a huge marketing blitz, there aren't any. We're eagerly waiting too.

Luke

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post #8 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 04:59 PM
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I know that I cannot record HD using my current dvd recorder, but when I look at the dvds I recorded from the HD channels when I had Voom they look outstanding. I am in no hurry to embrace any new HD recording technology when I have been happy with an SD recording made from an HD signal. Probably someday, but I am not jumping on the bandwagon when it begins.
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post #9 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 05:33 PM
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elocs,
I'm sure you will agree that nothing improves the quality of a recording more than a high quality input source. Now how much of a difference did you see between watching the original in HD and watching the high quality SD recording. Was it enough to blow your socks off like the difference between VHS and DVD. Or was it just . . . nice . . .

I'm interested in your observation.

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post #10 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy View Post

Thanks squonk. I know I've addressed this question many times. I think you're as weary reading my response as you are reading the question. But what am I to do if I'm not asked the one thing about which I have an answer?

HealeyGuy, you have explained it quite well, and probably better than I can, many times. I just thought given the frequency of the question it might be nice to have a thread that can quickly answer the inevitable. I'm amazed at how many think that hi def recording to DVD is possible now even though we don't even have the players yet.

As for the 16:9 anamorphic recording issues, those are beyond my expertise at this point but have been addressed several times by the likes of RonDawg, HealeyGuy, Budget HT and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting. I don't know if its possible to make a comprehensive "sticky" re those recording issues because of all the equipment variables, but I know Budget HT and aprest have posted nice
comprehensive posts regarding widescreen recording that could be made into a sticky. (see aprest post in thread "what I've learned about aspect ratios and DVD recording" AND ALSO SEE APREST POST BELOW FOR 16:9 RECORDING TIPS) (see Budget HT post in "DVR to DVD recorder possible")
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post #11 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

I would if I knew how. Is that up to a moderator?

Stuck.

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post #12 of 585 Old 11-03-2005, 10:17 PM
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Thanks for the sticky. Maybe this can evolve into a comprehensive FAQ for newbies. I had to answer the HD recording question on a thread earlier today.

I have seen enough to know I have seen too much. (A League of Their Own)
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post #13 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 10:26 AM
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I am posting this as help for those trying to record 16:9 and 4:3 content onto various DVD recorders. The source of the content for the most part was a DirecTV HR10-250 HD STB but the recommendations should apply to any STB that allows you to select a 16:9 or 4:3 output (or will summarize what you might get if you know what the output is).

If you want to record strictly HD content from the HR10-250 to view on a 16:9 HD TV, then it doesn't matter a lot about whether you use a Panasonic, Sony, or a Pioneer recorder. However, if you also want to record HD content to watch on a 4:3 TV, then there are issues you must deal with. There are even more issues when recording HD SAT, HD OTA and SD SAT broadcasts from the HR10-250. The attached matrix covers all four scenarios listed below. I have Pioneer (310 and 510), Panasonic (ES10) and Sony (GX7 and GX300) DVD recorders and have found the Sony GX7 and GX300 to provide the most flexibility in recording from the HR10-250. The Panasonic ES10 provides better results for content longer than 2 hours but requires that the ifo files be modified to be watched with no distortion on a 4:3 SD TV.

I have been experimenting with recording onto DVD-Rs using various settings for the output of a DirecTV HR10-250 High Definition Tivo STB to a Sony RDR GX300 DVD recorder. Note that the HR10-250 STB can be set to output either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratios to its S cable connection that feeds the Sony GX300 recorder. The Sony GX300 can be set to record 4:3 or 16:9 (Note: the 16:9 setting only works with DVD-R and DVD-RW DVDs at HQ, HSP and SP speeds that is 120 minutes or less).

Here are the results (note that you sould download the attachment that has this information plus a 2X2 matrix that provides a simple reference for the results):
1) Sony GX300 input set to 16:9 and HR10-250 output set to 16:9:
On an HD 16X9 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is recorded as anamorphic and can be watched using Full mode; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is recorded as anamorphic and can be watched in Full mode with sidebars showing.
On a SD 4X3 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is a full letterbox with bars on top and bottom; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is a centered letterbox with bars top, bottom and sides showing.
2) Sony GX300 input set to 16:9 and HR10-250 output set to 4:3:
On an HD 16X9 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is recorded as non-anamorphic and can be watched using Zoom mode; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is recorded as non-anamorphic and can be watched in Normal or 4:3 mode with sidebars showing.
On a SD 4X3 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) and 4:3 SD content (from SAT) are both squashed from top & bottom and so distorted as to be unwatchable.
3) Sony GX300 input set to 4:3 and HR10-250 output set to 16:9:
On an HD 16X9 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is recorded as anamorphic and can be watched using Full mode; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is recorded as anamorphic and can be watched in Full mode with sidebars showing.
On a SD 4X3 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) and 4:3 SD content (from SAT) are both squeezed from the sides and so distorted as to be unwatchable.
4) Sony GX300 input set to 4:3 and HR10-250 output set to 4:3:
On an HD 16X9 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is recorded as non-anamorphic and can be watched using Zoom mode; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is recorded as non-anamorphic and can be watched in Normal mode with sidebars showing.
On a SD 4X3 TV: 16:9 HD content (from OTA or SAT) is a full letterbox with bars on top and bottom showing; 4:3 SD content (from SAT) is full screen with no bars.

I also have a Sony RDR-GX7 that works the same way. I also have a Pioneer 310, a Pioneer 510, and a Panasonic ES10 and because you can not select an input setting it records the same way as numbers 3 and 4 above.

I attached a word document that contains the above text and a matrix showing these results. Note that the vertical access of the matrix says HR10-250 but this axis can apply to any STB that allows you to select a 16:9 or 4:3 output.

 

Recording onto DVD experiment v3.doc 138.5k . file
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post #14 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkaStp View Post

Recording and Playback in 16:9 is also a common subject that would benefit from the same treatment. So sqounk you might want to update your original post to cover this also.

I agree. Squonk maybe you can change the tiltle of this sticky to be a "how to record 16:9 HD content to......."
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post #15 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 10:59 AM
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Often times when you record from a 16:9 HD source the resulting DVD plays as a 16:9 anamorphic undistorted widescreen video on a 16:9 HD TV set to "Full" mode. However that same DVD plays as squeezed from the sides so that people look tall and skinny on a 4:3 SD TV.

I have read many posts about how to fix this but too often the recommendations are complex and require you to reauthor the DVD. There is a simpler way!

All you have to do is change the flags to 16:9 using Ifo.Edit (freeware) on a PC.

You don't need to reauthor the DVD. Just copy the DVD files to your hard drive, change the file properties to "a" from "ra" so that the ifo files can be modified, edit the ifo files using Ifo.Edit and burn a new DVD. The longest part of this process is waiting for the DVD to upload to your hard drive. Editing the ifo files takes about one minute and my PC DVD burner takes less than 8 minute to burn the final DVD-R.

I often record movies that are longer than 2 hours to my Panasonic ES10 (which does not set the 16:9 flags correctly in any recording mode) which provides 500 lines of resolution in LP (4 hour) mode. I record using DVD-RW disks, transfer to my PC, modify the ifo files, and burn to a DVD-R.

For movies two hours or shorter I use my Sony GX300 or GX7 set to record in 16:9 mode so that the DVD has the proper 16:9 flags and I don't need to reset the ifo flags on my PC. Note however if I use the Sony GX300 or GX7 to record movies longer than 2 hours the recorder ignores the 16:9 setting and records in 4:3 mode so that the 16:9 flags are not set correctly and I need to edit the ifo files. Since the Panasonic ES10 provides better resolution than the Sony GX300 or GX7 for movies longer than two hours I use the Panasonic for movies longer than two hours and then edit the ifo files.

Use this link for instructions as to how to edit the ifo files.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=3783431&highl ... ost3783431
Look for instructions posted in this thread about half way down the page.
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post #16 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 11:18 AM
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Apple has a neat trick to record HD on current DVDs:

"Author in SD or HD

Showcase your HD content with integrated, scalable H.264 encoding that allows you to fit HD content on DVDs using existing drives and existing media. Create HD on DVD versions from existing SD projects. Go from native HDV to HD on DVD with no recompression from Final Cut Pro and save time by encoding HD and SD in one Compressor batch."

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/dvdstudiopro/

Of course the catch is current players won't play the H.264 compression but you can record and play these HD DVDs on your computer.

And don't forget the new HDV format to record HD on miniDV tapes. I am not aware of any home decks, just camcorders in the under $5,000 price range.

I doubt of that format will make it all the way to the home when you consider what HD DVD (and Blu Ray) recorders will sell for in a few years.

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post #17 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aprest View Post

All you have to do is change the flags to 16:9 using Ifo.Edit (freeware) on a PC.

The application to do this on a Mac is called myDVDEdit.
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post #18 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 11:47 AM
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Just got a new upconversion dvd recorder, haven't even hooked it up yet, can it upconvert a recorded signal to HD or just the pre-recorded DVD's?
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post #19 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

In an effort to possibly save some repetition in posts, and avoid confusion, this seems to be a question that pops up once a week or so.

No current DVD recorder, available in the American market at least, will record high definition content IN HIGH DEFINITION RESOLUTION. DVD recorders can only record in standard definition which is 480i. You cannot record in 480p, 720p, 1080i or 1080p.

You CAN record hi definition content from a sat box or STB, depending on the hookup, but at best it will be in 480i resolution. The recordings should still be very good, they just won't be in high definition. Your STB or source signal has to be able to transmit the hi-def content via component, S video or composite- -not all do. Until the HD format wars are resolved and we start seeing some HD-DVD players, HD-DVD recorders are still a ways off.

Even if you have a hi-def DVR like a Directivo, while the Directivo will store the high def signal to its hard drive, so you can watch in high definition from your Directivo or Dish hard drive, it is downconverted to 480i when outputted to a DVD recorder for archiving(and it does not even stay in the digital domain, as it has to be converted to analog, then back to digital).

The only current way to actually record in hi-def resolution, other than a hi-def STB hard drive, is via a D-VHS recorder.

I think this is all accurate--if its not please let me know.

So you can record HD with a D-VHS recorder? Can you somehow connect it to the HR 10-250 for recording purposes? Thanks.
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post #20 of 585 Old 11-04-2005, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post

So you can record HD with a D-VHS recorder? Can you somehow connect it to the HR 10-250 for recording purposes? Thanks.

This and some other posts are getting a little afield from the topic of this thread which basically is "what happens when HD sources are recorded to the currently available DVD recorders."

But to answer your question, D-VHS recorders will record HD only via their Firewire input when connected to the Firewire output of a HD receiver or PVR. If the HR 10-250 has Firewire output then I'd check the AVS HDTV Recorders & Players forum for other people's experience using the D-VHS decks with this receiver.
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post #21 of 585 Old 11-06-2005, 11:11 PM
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I know this has been said on this thread but in my experience it cannot be said enough: Even though we all know that you cannot record a true HD quality on our DVD recorders.... The Panasonic and Pioneer DVD Recorders DO record an HD feed signal much better(the recording is sharper and clearer) than a non-HD feed signal providing the record modes(XP,SP etc) are same.. And I would wager other DVDR brands do this also.

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post #22 of 585 Old 11-13-2005, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Administrator, can you update the title of this sticky so people can see the thread addresses 16:9 recording issues also? I edited the title but the old one still appears. Thanks.
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post #23 of 585 Old 11-19-2005, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkaStp View Post

I followed your instructions and was able to change the 16:9 flag on my PC. However I remember you or someone else mentioning a bit different procedure that I can't seem to get right. Here goes...
I am recording using a Panasonic ES10 from a DirecTV HD Tivo receiver (set to 480i output).
The following procedure works:
1. Burn program(s) to a DVD-R disc on the ES10
2. Finalize the DVD-R disc on the ES10
3. Play DVD on 4:3 display. It is strectched vertically as expected. No problem on 16:9 display.
4. Put the DVD into my PC
5. Copy entire DVD contents to a directory on my PC hard drive.
6. Use IfoEdit to set the 16:9 flag
7. Burn entire DVD content (incl. modified .ifo files) from directory on my PC hard drive to a new DVD-R disc. I use Roxio 7 Disc Copier for this.
8. Test the updated DVD-RW on my PC using PowerDVD. Looks correct and displays 16:9 letterboxed in 4:3 window as expected.

The following procedure does not work:
1. Burn program(s) to a DVD-RW disc on the ES10 (note the use of a DVD-RW disc)
2. Finalize the DVD-RW on the ES10
3. Play DVD on 4:3 display. It is strectched vertically as expected. No problem on 16:9 display.
4. Put the DVD-RW disc into my PC
5. Copy just the .IFO and .BUP files to a directory on my PC hard drive
6. Use IfoEdit to set the 16:9 flag in the .Ifo files
7. Burn just the modified .Ifo and .Bup files to the original DVD-RW which replaces the original files. I use Roxio 7 for this and choose the option to close the DVD after burning.
8. Test the updated DVD-RW on my PC using PowerDVD. It works and displays 16:9 letterboxed in 4:3 window as expected due to changing the 16:9 flag using IfoEdit.
9. Put updated DVD-RW into my DVD Player. It gives an error about being unplayable due to being unfinalized.
10. Put the updated DVD-RW into the ES10. It complains the disc is not formatted properly and offers to format it.
What am I doing wrong?


I use the first method and never tried the second one because I didn't think it would work. You just proved that it in fact doesn't work. Another reason that I didn't try the second method is that I didn't want to use DVD-RW disks as the final DVD. DVD-R disks can be bought very cheaply and I can resue the DVD-RW for the next movie that needs to have the ifo files modified.
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post #24 of 585 Old 11-25-2005, 07:23 AM
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Early in the thread when Squonk was addressing the audio encoding schemes supported by DVD recorders he posted this.

Quote:
but only record in Dolby Digital 2.0 or uncompressed PCM digital stereo audio

Question concerning this, if memory serves right PCM stands for Pulse coded modulation at least in the RF world it does. If this is the method of coding the audio it should be possible for multiple channels of audio to be stored. Is this what comes from the RF output of the Sat reciever?
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post #25 of 585 Old 11-28-2005, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy View Post

Thanks squonk. I know I've addressed this question many times. I think you're as weary reading my response as you are reading the question.

To the moderator -
I am a newbie, but find the huge amounts of excellent information here a great assistance as I learn more and more about HD, Cable, Sats etc. However, it makes sense to me that we newbies should not unwittingly ask the same questions over an over and waste a number of talented peoples time. So, how about a "Newbie" section as one of the forums. It could have the stickies from each of the regular forums. This would be a great place for us beginners to start our information gathering.
PS - as a newbie, I hope I am not out of line posing a question like this to a moderator. If this is bad form, please accept my apologies in advance.
Jim
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post #26 of 585 Old 11-30-2005, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp444 View Post

To the moderator -
I am a newbie, but find the huge amounts of excellent information here a great assistance as I learn more and more about HD, Cable, Sats etc. However, it makes sense to me that we newbies should not unwittingly ask the same questions over an over and waste a number of talented peoples time. So, how about a "Newbie" section as one of the forums. It could have the stickies from each of the regular forums. This would be a great place for us beginners to start our information gathering.
PS - as a newbie, I hope I am not out of line posing a question like this to a moderator. If this is bad form, please accept my apologies in advance.
Jim

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post #27 of 585 Old 12-07-2005, 05:20 PM
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Crutchfield says the Sony Sony RDR-VX515 Combination DVD recorder + HiFi VCR "can record progressive scan video signals".

Now maybe that means it can record progressive scan signals, but it records them in 480i...??


http://www.crutchfield.com/S-oK3pu9M...i=158VX515#Tab
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post #28 of 585 Old 12-07-2005, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsalopek View Post

Crutchfield says the Sony Sony RDR-VX515 Combination DVD recorder + HiFi VCR "can record progressive scan video signals".

Now maybe that means it can record progressive scan signals, but it records them in 480i...??


http://www.crutchfield.com/S-oK3pu9M...i=158VX515#Tab

The web site says ...
Quote:


Progressive Scan: The DVD can output progressive scan video signals from the component video outputs. Progressive scan video has less flicker and fewer motion artifacts than the traditional interlaced scanning method, resulting in a superior picture. To watch progressive scan video, you must have a television with component video inputs that supports the progressive scanning mode. Note: You can record progressive scan video signals.

This would be the first DVD recorder I have heard of that would accept progressive scan inputs for recording.

Dave
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post #29 of 585 Old 12-09-2005, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

The web site says ...


This would be the first DVD recorder I have heard of that would accept progressive scan inputs for recording.

The 515 doesn't have component inputs. Given that "To watch progressive scan video, you must have a television with component video inputs that supports the progressive scanning mode." Don't you need component inputs on a DVD recorder to record "progressive scan"?
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post #30 of 585 Old 12-09-2005, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aprest View Post

The 515 doesn't have component inputs. Given that "To watch progressive scan video, you must have a television with component video inputs that supports the progressive scanning mode." Don't you need component inputs on a DVD recorder to record "progressive scan"?

That's what I thought. So if the device "records progressive scan video signals", it probably only means it will record the signal as 480i and then upconverts via component out to 480p?
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