DVD-R Archival Media - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 03-16-2006, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like there are at least two or three different manufacturers of what claim to be "archival media":
Delkin Archival Gold

Memorex Pro Gold (available in April)

Verbatim Dual Reflective Layer (available in 2nd quarter 2006)
These discs are substantially more expensive than standard DVD-Rs, but I might be tempted to buy a spindle so that I could archive the most irreplacable of my material.

According to these web pages, all three of these use gold in the reflective layer and claim that it increases the longevity of the media. This could be true if the degradation was due to changes in the reflective layer, but isn't the dye layer just as likely to be the culprit? Does anyone have any comments on these?
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post #2 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 11:56 AM
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I have been thinking about these as well and I do have a subset of discs I would use these as a backup to.

I have not searched around yet but I sure would like to see some hard data on why they believe these will last longer than the previous 30 to 100 year claim ;) So far I have only seen the marketing fodder.

Seems like the gold would mostly help if they believe that the disc would begin to delaminate and cause oxidation of the metal layer. I have not seen this in DVDs but it was apparently common in the early days of CDs.
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post #3 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 02:00 PM
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I guess I should have read before posting the first time. Looks like that is why want to use gold.

Quote:
Memorex Pro Gold CD - Recordable media
These innovative discs are proven to last up to six times longer than traditional media with a CD archival life of up to 300 years and a DVD archival life of up to 100 years. Laboratory tests prove Memorex Pro Gold Media to be resistant to the effects of rapid, artificial aging such as ultraviolet light, heat and humidity exposure thanks in part to gold’s inert characteristics that prevent oxidation, a common cause of failure for most recordable media during long-term storage.
Thanks for the links.
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post #4 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 08:09 PM
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it is the dye that fails.

you are paying for nothing. all these Brands outsource now. Some plant in China is poping the DVDrs out and the brand sticks their lable on it.

don't pay more than you need to.

read my thread about DVDr data integrity for a pointer to a good brand (and one to stay away from).
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post #5 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 08:15 PM
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WTF? Oxidation!!!!!!!!

thats horseshit.

DVD ROT was rusting (i.e. Oxidation). this only happens to store bought "pressed" DVDs

DVD Rs don't have metal in them thay have a dye. The dye does not oxidize! it FADES due to light. the poorer ones fade FAST......not over yrs but over weeks.

LIGHT as in sunlight is the culprit.


don't be sucked into paying out the arse for a DVDr that is just as likely to fade as the el-cheapo brand.


Memorex is full of crap.

go buy the Matrix by AML I posted about. 21-bucks for 100.

good luck!
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post #6 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaffo
DVD Rs don't have metal in them thay have a dye. The dye does not oxidize! it FADES due to light. the poorer ones fade FAST......not over yrs but over weeks.
DVD-Rs do have a metal layer beneath the dye to reflect the laser light. When the laser burns the dye, the burned spot turns dark and absorbs the light, preventing it from being reflected.

I can understand that if the metal layer oxidizes and becomes less reflective, this would affect the ability to pick up the burned data. But the NIST Stability Comparison of Optical Discs suggests that the dye layer is the one that is more likely to deteriorate, since it's made of organic materials that inevitably degrade. So I'm doubting whether the marketing claim for the gold layer is really relevant.

The NIST study does show that at least one (unidentified) brand was much more stable under their testing conditions, and they attribute this to the dye. I would very much like to understand what the differences are in the dyes used. In the links I gave in the original post, only the Verbatim mentions a specific type of dye - "Metal AZO dye".

Interestingly enough, DVD-RW discs use a metal recording layer rather than a dye. The metal alloy changes between amorphous and crystalline phases to record "pits" and "lands". I wonder if this is more stable than the organic dyes used in DVD-R?
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post #7 of 51 Old 03-18-2006, 06:36 AM
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It was Mitsui/MAM-A that started the gold DVD-R's several months ago. Their gold CD-R media has been highly rated for years. It suspect that Delkin and other companies are getting their gold discs from Mitsui/MAM-A.

http://store.mam-a-store.com/standar...hive-gold.html
http://videosystems.com/e-newsletter...as_Gold090905/
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post #8 of 51 Old 03-18-2006, 07:23 AM
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I'm wondering when or if NIST will set voluntary standards and list which media meets their quality standard? I'm getting sick of these discussions and not knowing which brand to use. Currently using TY for critical work and TDK, Imation, Ritek, Maxell depending on what I'm burning, speed of the machine or computer burner, and if I'm burning an TV program for a friend or backing up a movie,etc.

And if and when this gets settled with standard media what about Blu Ray or Fi Def DVD?
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post #9 of 51 Old 03-18-2006, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Nelson
Interestingly enough, DVD-RW discs use a metal recording layer rather than a dye. The metal alloy changes between amorphous and crystalline phases to record "pits" and "lands". I wonder if this is more stable than the organic dyes used in DVD-R?
A while ago I clearly remember reading somewhere that CD-RW were much better for long term storage then dye based CD-R, because there is no dye. The same can probably be applied to DVDs. I always found it strange though that nobody on discussion boards was talking about this....
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post #10 of 51 Old 03-18-2006, 04:43 PM
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I thought I read that DVD-RW was not as durable over time but now cannot find where I read it or the reason for it. I thought it was part of the Fred Beyers testing lab findings.

I will keep looking through my files.
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post #11 of 51 Old 03-18-2006, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoRoy
I thought I read that DVD-RW was not as durable over time but now cannot find where I read it or the reason for it. I thought it was part of the Fred Beyers testing lab findings.

I will keep looking through my files.
I also remember it the way you do. But then RAM was designed for and is recomended as archival storage and it also is not dye-based. Perhaps -RW is a poor man's RAM and as such dips below -R on the longevity scale.

Everyone here is right, as far as I am concerned. It is confusing, unresolved and a pitiful shame. The saving grace of the technology is that the general consumer is largely ignorant of the issues we discuss on a regular basis. Otherwise, nobody would buy these things.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #12 of 51 Old 03-19-2006, 05:17 AM
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Very few people are buying recorders as they've heard so many negative things and warnings from friends, family and forums like this. Most BB's DVD Recorder sections look like a disaster area with open box items sometimes outweighing new units. And, the salesman don't go out of their way to promote them. Maybe they should promote them by giving a good recorder for free to anyone buying a HiDef TV. The picture quality advantages as well as the other advantages put VHS to shame.

Does anybody think HiDef or Blu Ray will be any different?
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post #13 of 51 Old 03-19-2006, 07:48 AM
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The price of media may keep some out of the game for a while. When I bought my first PC DVD drive in 2002 (I waited for the 1st dual format) the media prices were what kept me from really doing a much as I wanted.

Also you may see people wait for dual format recorders and drives since it can be a pain if you buy by into one format and friends / family choose something different.
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post #14 of 51 Old 03-20-2006, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So here's something interesting regarding DVD-R vs. DVD-RW media...

Many of you may have seen my posts in other threads alluding to the fact that I've decided to test all my DVD-R burns every 3 months and compare this to the tests I did immediately after the initial burns. I've come up to the 3-month mark on about 100 discs so far, and virtually all of the discs have degraded. The degradation ranges from nearly zero to around a 20% higher PIE error count, with the overall average being in the 5% range. This has been consistent over my Maxell-branded RITEKG05 discs and my Taiyo Yuden TYG02 discs (although I've only had 3 T-Y discs go through my 3-month test do far).

I have a few DVD-RW discs that have been burned between 2 and 3 months ago that I haven't overwritten since, so I decided to retest them. I found it very interesting that for all 4 discs I tested, the error rates went down compared with the test I did immediately after the initial burn. The reduction ranged from 2% to 12% fewer errors, with the average being about 7%. There were three Maxell and Verbatim-branded MCC01RW11n9 discs and one TDK502sakuM3 disc (which had the 2% improvement) in this sample.

It's a bit early to leap to the conclusion that the metal recording layer really is more stable than the organic dyes used in DVD-R discs, but this initial data at least seems to be pointing in that direction...
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post #15 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 12:29 AM
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Wow. Great information Sean!
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post #16 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 06:05 AM
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Very interesting and with the price of RW discs these days it does make archival viable for some subset.

Sean, one question about your tests. Are you testing with the same drive and FW that you did at the beginning of the 3 months?

This is something I am very interested in now that I have also started 100% scanning of the discs I care about and comparing scanning capability between a couple of drives and FW revisions.

Thanks.
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post #17 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, all my tests have been with a Plextor PX-716A with firmware version 1.03. I've been using the "PlexTools Professional" software (V2.17) that came with the drive.
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post #18 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 10:45 AM
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Outstanding work Sean. This kind of objective testing is what is needed, not endless threads repeating the same hearsay about one brand or another. I wish I had Plextor drives but they don't make a RAM reader which I use all the time to transfer from the DVDR to the computer. Too bad the Plextor couldn't include RAM in the same testing because of everyone's speculation that it might be the best archival media. Were the disks you're monitoring burned in the Plextor or in a set top DVD recorder?

I have seen enough to know I have seen too much. (A League of Their Own)
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post #19 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 10:48 AM
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Sean, did you store your -R and -RW discs you just tested vertically or horizontally, and was there any diff. in how you stored each kind of disc?
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post #20 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 10:52 AM
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I have mentioned before but I also have that drive.

While I would normally say it is good to remain constant on the FW for a test like this, I just want to make sure you know, current FW is 1.09.

Quite a few bug fixes between 1.03 to 1.06 and after that mostly media updates. Many fixes for DL & RW media and Autostratey.
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post #21 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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All the discs I've been testing were burned in the same Pioneer 633H DVD-HDD recorder.

All discs were stored vertically in a benign humidty environment (about 40-60% RH). There is a difference in the storage method, though - the DVD-R discs are stored in DVD "binders" with plastic sleeves while the DVD-RW discs are stored in jewell cases. I suppose that there's some potential that the plastic sleeves are damaging the discs somehow, but I've had a pretty close look at the recording side of the discs and there are no marks or scratches visible.

I'm aware of the newer firmware, but I tend to lean toward the "if it ain't broke..." school of thought and since I've not been having any particular problems with data discs burned on the drive I haven't worried about an upgrade. I think I might consider upgrading the firmware at the end of the year after a few more rounds of testing all my DVDs so that (a) I've got a long run of testing done with the same firmware, and (b) it will be more evident that any difference between tests done before and after the upgrade will be due to the new firmware.
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post #22 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 11:27 AM
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Looks like a great process and environment.

Agreed, probably do not need to update FW unless you change media or have problems. BTW Plextor just updated their media compatibility tables and now use the MID as reference instead of the arcane part number.

Also has a column that reports how they support the particular media (Reccmmended, Compatible, Autostrategy). They also highlight the highest recommeded media in yellow. Very nice if you have not checked it out yet.

I try to stay in the yellow bands. 716A Media
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post #23 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a very nice list of media, thanks!
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post #24 of 51 Old 03-21-2006, 10:04 PM
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I also have the Plextor 716 burner. Haven't used it much though. Too much other stuff going on in my life right now. The media lists helps. But it refers to the Plextor 716A. I'd like to see NIST come out with a list mentioning other brands(machines).
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post #25 of 51 Old 03-23-2006, 06:54 AM
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Maxell is now making "Broadcast Quality" DVD-R discs with hard coating and a 2x longer life expectancy. They cost $2 each however.

http://www.tapeonline.com/store/prod...id=VMP-DVD-RBQ
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=382445
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post #26 of 51 Old 03-23-2006, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info about these Maxell disks. Here's a link to the specification sheet (a PDF file) on Maxell-USA's web site.

I understand what the hard coating does for me, and the antistatic properties to reduce dust problems are also a good idea. But the NIST testers indicate that the biggest issue in terms of life expectancy are the dyes used, and Maxell is not making any claims about the dyes used in this product other than a very generic statement of "2X archival life".

If I can find any of these locally I may give them a try.
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post #27 of 51 Old 03-24-2006, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoRoy
I thought I read that DVD-RW was not as durable over time but now cannot find where I read it or the reason for it. I thought it was part of the Fred Beyers testing lab findings.

I will keep looking through my files.
I finally ran across the place where I read that RW was not as long lasting but they do not explain why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSTA Faqs
As with CD-R and CD-RW discs media manufacturers have performed their own lifetime evaluations using a variety of homegrown tests and mathematical modeling techniques. Generally speaking, manufacturers claim life spans ranging from 30 to 100 years for DVD-R and DVD+R discs and up to 30 years for DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM. Be aware, however, that disc producers, manufacturing methods and materials change over time as do applications and cost imperatives. Consequently, those concerned with disc longevity should consult their media manufacturer for more particular information.
OSTA Org Link

I would like to see some more science on this one though.
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post #28 of 51 Old 03-24-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoRoy
I would like to see some more science on this one though.
In case you haven't run across this yet, here's a link to one section (storage/longevity) of a Care & Handling "treatise" on CD/DVDs (see "next" and "previous" links at bottom of page for other sections):

http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html
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post #29 of 51 Old 03-24-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo
In case you haven't run across this yet, here's a link to one section (storage/longevity) of a Care & Handling "treatise" on CD/DVDs (see "next" and "previous" links at bottom of page for other sections):

http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html
Thanks for the link, I had not seen that one.

Still not much science and in one paragraph they say RW may outlast DVD-R and in the next they say just the opposite :confused:

They do say however that not much testing has been done in this area.
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post #30 of 51 Old 03-24-2006, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoRoy
Still not much science and in one paragraph they say RW may outlast DVD-R and in the next they say just the opposite
I didn't see that even after re-reading it. In the intro, they say:

"Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more."

Then, in Section 4.3, they reiterate that in more detail, starting out by saying:

"RW and RAM discs are generally not considered for long-term or archival use, and life expectancy tests are seldom done for this medium."

???
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