Summary of ATSC recorders - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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An updated list is being kept at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_rec..._DVD_recorders

All have a DVD recorder so far. All downscale the native HD signal.
Therefore you will get better picture quality from a dedicated ATSC tuner such as the Samsung DTB-H260F

MFG
Model ID Features Price Available Manual More info
LG
DR787T 230 Now Forum thread
Review
DR797T
VCR 300
Panasonic
All have QAM
DMR-EZ7K
Up convert to 1080p 250 April Alternate
DMR-EZ17K
200 Now yes
DMR-EZ37K
Up convert to 1080p 315 April
Philips
DVDR3505
Up converts to 720p and 1080i 200 Now yes
Alt 1
2
DVDR3575H_37
160GB Hard Disc 330 May


RCA DRC8335 VHS 250 - April

Samsung AVR650 250 - April
Samsung AVR950 - VHS - 300 - April

Sylvania zc350sl8 - 170 - April

Toshiba D-R550 - QAM - 230 - March - Alt 1 Alt 2 3
Toshiba D-VR650 - QAM - VHS - 275 - March

I put a March date on the units that were available for preorder in February.

Cross posted at HDTV reception hardware forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=803388
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post #2 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 04:10 PM
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Quote:

I wish they had a HDD and component inputs
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post #3 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 07:45 PM
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From the "little" picture of the Panny it looks pretty much like last years model only in black. Wonder if all the ATSC Tuner units will be in black instead of silver?

Glad to see that BLACK is making a comeback though
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post #4 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 08:05 PM
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As has been mentioned by other posters, the Panasonics look like the current models with a hefty kick in price for the added ATSC tuners. If that is the price premium an ATSC tuner adds, even at this late stage of the turnover, then it is no wonder why manufacturers delay until after the dates of the FCC mandates before they put the products on the shelf.

I see nothing in any of the press releases for the Panasonics that would indicate they will record 5.1 from those tuners. They are already down-rezing HD to 480, so I would not be surprised to see them down-converting 5.1 to 2.0 as well. In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

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post #5 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 08:25 PM
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I assume these would be standard definition tuners?meaning they record downrezzed 480i HD,but if you used them as a tuner for a HD monitor,would the maximum resolution be 480?
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post #6 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 08:56 PM
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When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?
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post #7 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSDO View Post

When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?

Yes. All standalone ATSC tuners do this (480i is what comes out of the S-Video and composite ports on these tuners).

The Future ain't what it used to be...
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post #8 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Lococco View Post

I assume these would be standard definition tuners?meaning they record downrezzed 480i HD,but if you used them as a tuner for a HD monitor,would the maximum resolution be 480?

One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.
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post #9 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielCard View Post

One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.

This make sense. The ATSC tuner and DVD recorder are just packaged as a "unit". The ATSC tuner tunes in the OTA signal and in the case of HD..720p or 1080i would be seen on your display no different than the way your TV's ATSC tuner works. But when that signal is sent to the recorder part of the "unit" its downrezd to 480i.
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post #10 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 09:49 PM
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that's good news,anything other than full resolution is cheating the consumer.
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post #11 of 1027 Old 01-20-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

As has been mentioned by other posters, the Panasonics look like the current models with a hefty kick in price for the added ATSC tuners. If that is the price premium an ATSC tuner adds, even at this late stage of the turnover, then it is no wonder why manufacturers delay until after the dates of the FCC mandates before they put the products on the shelf.

I see nothing in any of the press releases for the Panasonics that would indicate they will record 5.1 from those tuners. They are already down-rezing HD to 480, so I would not be surprised to see them down-converting 5.1 to 2.0 as well. In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

Especially with no HDD's!
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post #12 of 1027 Old 01-21-2007, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Especially with no HDD's!

What I meant by my comment was that for decades people have accepted recording with VCRs that recorded analog TV at half the horizontal/vertical broadcast resolution. Now we will have hi-def TV and a fleet of new DVDRs that will record the 1920x1080 hi-def signal at 720x480 which is actually quite a bit less than half the vertical/horizontal resolution. People will probably be very satisfied with that. That makes DVDR's the new VCR for the digital age.

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post #13 of 1027 Old 02-10-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

Not true, my current DVD recorder can not tune nor record any digital channel. So, these do have capabilities that my current DVD recorder does not. Don't forget there are still plenty of people that can't afford (or refuse to) pay for TV and use OTA only. The capability to record a digital signal is a big upgrade over recording an analog OTA signal.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it.


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post #14 of 1027 Old 02-10-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

What I meant by my comment was that for decades people have accepted recording with VCRs that recorded analog TV at half the horizontal/vertical broadcast resolution. Now we will have hi-def TV and a fleet of new DVDRs that will record the 1920x1080 hi-def signal at 720x480 which is actually quite a bit less than half the vertical/horizontal resolution. People will probably be very satisfied with that. That makes DVDR's the new VCR for the digital age.

I got it. And you make perfect sense. I just added the HDD comment as evidence of my fustration over the lack of them in the 2007 models.
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post #15 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 01:41 PM
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Great idea to start a summary list! Here's a couple more:

Toshiba: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=CES+2007

* D-R550: ATSC, QAM, NTSC $229.99, April 2007)
* D-VR650, super-multi-format, VCR combo unit, ATSC, QAM, NTSC, ($279.99, April 2007)

Boldly trying a new DVR:
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post #16 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 01:52 PM
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Question: Do any of these DVD Recorders output HD-quality broadcast signals via component out? I'm looking for an HD ATSC/QAM tuner and find the combined ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder to be an interesting product, even if the recording abilities are only 480i.

I'm thinking this way: If I can get an all-in-one solution that allows me to watch HD live broadcasts and very good SD recordings from broadcasts on recordable media via time shift, I can dump my cable HD feed and use this box solely. I might lose a program guide built-in, but I have never found my cable co.'s guide to be all that useful (was spoiled by Tivo during my DirecTV years).

SCD
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post #17 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SDouglas View Post

Question: Do any of these DVD Recorders output HD-quality broadcast signals via component out? I'm looking for an HD ATSC/QAM tuner and find the combined ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder to be an interesting product, even if the recording abilities are only 480i.

I'm thinking this way: If I can get an all-in-one solution that allows me to watch HD live broadcasts and very good SD recordings from broadcasts on recordable media via time shift, I can dump my cable HD feed and use this box solely. I might lose a program guide built-in, but I have never found my cable co.'s guide to be all that useful (was spoiled by Tivo during my DirecTV years).

I don't think anyone here has used one and specs are very hard to come by. So the answer to your first question is maybe.

As far as the second question, assuming the unit you buy as a QAM tuner, you will only be able to receive the unencrypted digital (which includes HD) stations. The means no HBO, ESPN, etc. It varies from area to area, but most of the time the only unencrypted digital signals are the local channels.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it.


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post #18 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 02:58 PM
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the difficulty may be the integration of such a device with a DVR, like Tivo or replaytv. I am not sure how you could get Tivo to control those devices - I tried with a Samsung atsc tuner and couldn't get the combo to work.
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post #19 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielCard View Post

One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.

But will it record a 480i ANAMORPHIC signal, or are we stuck with letterboxing all HD content?
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post #20 of 1027 Old 02-11-2007, 05:32 PM
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All the ATSC tuners that I've used allow you to choose a display format when viewing an HD signal via a 480i or 480p output: anamorphic ("squeezed"), side-cropped ("pan&scan"), or letterboxed. I hope the new recorders allow recording those same formats. But we can't really tell until we can get our hands on the recorders or their user manuals.
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post #21 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

But we can't really tell until we can get our hands on the recorders or their user manuals.

Good idea - Samsung only posted the manual for the 157 so far on their site. Unfortunately that is a tunerless unit so you can't tell much from that. It does have an IR blaster which I didn't think many units had. I'm not sure much else can be gleaned from that manual.
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post #22 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DLSDO View Post

When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?

I avoided being an early adopter of HDTV because of the lack of an included hi-def tuner in all of the early sets. With that hurdle overcome (thanks to a government mandate), I'll say OTA HD is the best bargain in TV.

Unfortunately, the HDTV manufacturers have made it incredibably difficult to archive any OTA broadcasts. The means to do so are either incredibly cumbersome (PC), supported by one manufacturer (S-VHS), or have been simply deleted from entire product lines of new HDTVs (firewire, video-out ports) or completely cost-ineffective (Tivo).

I had a hard time justifying spending $5000 for an HDTV with the ability to archive OTA broadcasts (at any resolution) explicity removed.

The included hi-def tuner in the DVD recorders only restores a functionality that should have been in my $ 5000 HDTV.
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post #23 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by biker19 View Post

Good idea - Samsung only posted the manual for the 157 so far on their site. Unfortunately that is a tunerless unit so you can't tell much from that. It does have an IR blaster which I didn't think many units had. I'm not sure much else can be gleaned from that manual.

I thought DVD-R157 had ATSC tuner built-in. Well i shouldn't have trusted pre-release specs from jr.com...
If this is true then some one should remove DVD-R157 from ATSC recorder list.
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post #24 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 12:53 PM
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I thought DVD-R157 had ATSC tuner built-in. Well i shouldn't have trusted pre-release specs from jr.com...
If this is true then some one should remove DVD-R157 from ATSC recorder list.

They could have released that at any time since it has no tuner - it is a bit of an oddity - I'm not sure I've seen a tunerless DVDr yet. I wonder if it's just some older design from which they lifted the NTSC tuner (and firmware to record from tuner).
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I'm not sure I've seen a tunerless DVDr yet.

This one was mentioned around here a while back, another of those oddities:

http://shopmiracle.stores.yahoo.net/sonyvrdvc10.html
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post #26 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

This one was mentioned around here a while back, another of those oddities:

http://shopmiracle.stores.yahoo.net/sonyvrdvc10.html

That's pretty expensive for what it does.

Seems like what Samsung did with this 157 could be done by the other makers also - just strip out the tuner and offer the "new" model at the same price as last years' model - what an idea

Now I'm really curious to see if that's what happened. The law of unintended consequences - many folks assume makers will just add a digital tuner to go along with the analog one - instead the makers strip out tuners altogether.
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That's pretty expensive for what it does.

Seems like what Samsung did with this 157 could be done by the other makers also - just strip out the tuner and offer the "new" model at the same price as last years' model - what an idea

Now I'm really curious to see if that's what happened. The law of unintended consequences - many folks assume makers will just add a digital tuner to go along with the analog one - instead the makers strip out tuners altogether.

An ATSC tuner will only effect about 10-15% of the television viewing market. There is no QAM mandate.

I think originally there was high hope for the potential of side band multicasting. This would increase the number of OTA channels to a point where people might actually go back to an antenna for OTA reception because of the increase in programming. Unfortunately multicasting is proving to be less than attractive for broadcasters. Instead they have decided to forego multicasting and go right to broadband.

By this I mean there was a time when the powers that be thought that reruns of "Lost" for example would be available as a multicast OTA. Instead networks are now offering these reruns via broadband for a fee. The only real multicast operation right now is the NBC Weather channel. Big deal. And PBS does some. But that's it. And other plans have been abandoned - again for broadband initiatives.

Plus cable companies are only required to carry a broadcasters primary channel. Not the multicasted channels. Which means no audience for the advertisers. Until the broadcasters can deliver an audience there will be essentially no multicasting.

This has taken much of the attractiveness out of the benefits of an ATSC tuner.
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Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

I think originally there was high hope for the potential of side band multicasting. This would increase the number of OTA channels to a point where people might actually go back to an antenna for OTA reception because of the increase in programming. Unfortunately multicasting is proving to be less than attractive for broadcasters. Instead they have decided to forego multicasting and go right to broadband.

By this I mean there was a time when the powers that be thought that reruns of "Lost" for example would be available as a multicast OTA. Instead networks are now offering these reruns via broadband for a fee. The only real multicast operation right now is the NBC Weather channel. Big deal. And PBS does some. But that's it. And other plans have been abandoned - again for broadband initiatives.

You can thank the same people that required the ATSC tuner for killing mutlicasting by requiring children's TV programming on all stations, including the multicast stations

In my area that meant that no more 24/7 weather channels. For someone that uses OTA only, this proved very useful in severe weather. It is a lot easier to flip on the TV in the middle of the night rather than booting up the computer, navigating to a webpage and finding the radar on that site.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it.


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post #29 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 07:07 PM
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An ATSC tuner will only effect about 10-15% of the television viewing market. There is no QAM mandate.

I think people in this forum consistently underestimate this. Many people with cable do not use cable exclusively, i.e. a TV up in the bedroom may still have rabit ears. I believe I saw a citation once that upwards of 40% of the public receives at least some of their TV via OTA.

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post #30 of 1027 Old 02-12-2007, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I think people in this forum consistently underestimate this. Many people with cable do not use cable exclusively, i.e. a TV up in the bedroom may still have rabit ears. I believe I saw a citation once that upwards of 40% of the public receives at least some of their TV via OTA.

Anybody with cable most assuredly is using analog cable with those extra televisions. One advantage of cable is that you are no longer charged by the outlet for analog. If the cable itself does not run to the television people figure out ways to get it there. Run it along the baseboard. Through the wall etc. If you have cable into the home rabbit ears no longer cut it. Except for maybe the portable television sitting on the kitchen counter. Which is probably not considered a target market for the DVD recorder manufacturers. Most numbers published by the NAB and the cable industry peg it the 10-15% range.

I even recently purchased a wireless a/v sender/receiver with an ir blaster that includes remote control access. It was $49.99 and it allows me full control over a digital cable DVR box. I have it hooked up in one of the bedrooms and it allows full access to the DVR. Analog cable wasn't enough.

http://www.x10.com/promotions/wirele...der_vk82a.html

It works great for casual viewing. It even included the universal remote.
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