Magnavox 557, 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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REAL-TIME DUB (RTD) INFO

The procedure for dubbing is in a separate help file here.

Important: A RTD from HDD to DVD sets the DVDR default rec mode to whatever you select for the RTD. Always check your default rec mode after a RTD!


Jump To:
Notes
Note on Helpful Advice from Users of Other DVDRs
Making Multigenerational Copies in Same Rec Mode - Digital Channels
Mode-Conversion Dubbing from 1-hr-HQ to ALL Other Rec Modes - Digital Channels
Mode-Conversion Dubbing from 2-hr-SP Tape to 2.5-hr-SPP DVD
Real-Time Dub Smooths Edit Points

Notes
  1. The reason we can fit only 4424 MB, or 4.4 GB, of info on a "4.7 GB" disc is simply the difference in figuring capacity: disc mfgrs use the decimal numbering system (K=1000) but our DVDRs and computers use the binary system (K=1024).
  2. High-speed dub (HSD) retains ALL chapter marks in the DVD copy (auto- and custom-set). real-time dub (RTD) strips those and sets marks only per your auto-chapter setting in the Recording menu.
  3. When dubbing from DVD to HDD, you have to set the HDD rec mode since the dub doesn't occur automatically at the same rec mode as the DVD. Only a high-speed dub from HDD to DVD does that.
  4. A dub is controlled by the machine so, once you start the dub, you can walk away... you don't have to babysit a dub.
  5. Caution: Don't start a dub if you have a timer rec program due to start within the time period of your dub. You'll just end up ruining your disc!
Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

Note on Helpful Advice from Users of Other DVDRs

Be aware that, when people with OTHER DVDRs offer advice on recording and dubbing modes, etc., they might not have digital tuners in their units, so their source PQ is not as good as your digital channels.

Also, they certainly don't have Philips new MPEG-2 encoder-decoder (CODEC), one of hundreds they've developed, which has advanced features like those mentioned in a recent magazine article about the "big four" codec producers [Zoran, ESS, LSI and Philips] and who's doing what with their DVD chips, part of which reads:

"Philips is adding to its new MPEG-2 CODEC optimized hardware blocks for running new picture improvement algorithms such as adaptive picture sharpness detection and deblocking* artifacts removal."

So, do your own tests and become familiar with YOUR unit's capabilities, and you might be surprised at how "old" advice is, well, just OLD!

Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

Making Multigenerational Copies in Same Rec Mode - Digital Channels

Note 1: This discussion assumes recording from digital channels... recordings from analog channels will be hard-pressed to retain PQ, much less improve it!

Note 2: These RTD multi-generation tests were all done with the INTERNAL DRIVES of a 3575. You WILL get different and lower-quality results if you introduce an outside source, like a DVD recorded in a diff. recorder, a separate DVD player, Composite or S-Video cables, etc.

High-speed dub (HSD) is ALWAYS best to use IF POSSIBLE. However, there are some occasions that you might want to or need to use real-time dub (RTD), or mode-conversion dub, like when programs run long and you don't want to Delete Scenes, or you do all your recordings at 1-hr-HQ cuz you value VIEWING quality over subsequent ability to put on a disc, etc... "special" circumstances, for the most part. For more info on RTD and HSD, click here.

Prompted by one of the Panasonic Super-Fans who bought a 3575 to bash and posted that an HQ multigenerational dub "looked like crap," and me thinking that sounded suspiciously untrue (as usual), I decided to test the very-worst-case scenario of making sequential dubs, from one generation to the next with the internal drives, ALL in RT. That's definitely "worst-case" since, in the real world, the dubs from HDD-to-DVD would normally be made at HS for a lossless, mirror-image copy.

I started by recording 30 min. or so of an action movie at 1-hr-HQ rec mode from my excellent TNT digital channel (Gen 1), which I receive via an analog cable feed. It has lots of detail shots, fast movement, closeups of faces, C4 explosive blocks w/small writing, a detonating device with a small LED and text, helicopter flying with inside shot of heads-up display, etc. IOW, LOTS of stuff that would normally show PQ degradation.

I copied the Gen1 HQ title from HDD to a DVD+R (Gen2), back to HDD (Gen3), back to DVD (Gen4), back to HDD (Gen5), and back to DVD (Gen6)... all RT dubs from the last Gen using 1-hr-HQ rec mode.

Theoretically, there was supposed to be some degradation, but I just couldn't see it. I've got 3 copies on DVD... representing SIX REAL-TIME GENERATIONS... and ALL look virtually the same!

I wonder how many gens I could stretch that to if my original feed were OTA or Sat HD to start with, or even true digital cable, rather than my basic analog cable feed!?

If you need to do this multi-generational dubbing for a special purpose, you should, of course, use HS dub from HDD to DVD, then the Gen6 RT dub in my worst-case test would only be Gen3.

Even if you start with a Finalized DVD in HQ mode from a good source, where the Gen1 on the DVD would have to be DIRECT DUBBED in RT to the HDD (Gen2), this test proved that a worst-case Gen5 from a Finalized HQ DVD can be virtually indistinguishable from the original, depending on the quality of the source.

Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

Mode-Conversion Dubbing from 1-hr-HQ to ALL Other Rec Modes - Digital Channels

Note 1: This discussion assumes recording from digital channels... recordings from analog channels will be hard-pressed to retain PQ, much less improve it!

Note 2: These RTD mode-conversion tests were all done with the INTERNAL DRIVES of a 3575. You WILL get different and lower-quality results if you introduce an outside source, like a DVD recorded in a diff. recorder, a separate DVD player, Composite or S-Video cables, etc.

Another question might be how good is this DVDR in maintaining PQ with a RTD that converts rec mode from a digital channel recording to one of the next-lower quality modes... again, in prob. the worst-case for source (other than an analog channel): my basic analog cable feed?

This is useful for someone who is primarily a "time-shifter" (record shows, watch later, then delete), but wants the highest quality recordings to VIEW. The true time-shifter seldom makes DVD copies so the 1-hr-HQ per DVD limit will only be an occasional "time-problem" that might require a real-time conversion dub to another rec mode... and even then, just for movies or special events that are over 1-hr in length.

I just completed several tests of RTD to check PQ loss from a 5-minute segment I recorded to my HDD in 1-hr-HQ. This DVDR allows you to pause a manual recording and change channels, so I did that to make sure I included sports, dramas, commercials, etc. in my test recording.

My results are summarized below with separate PQ assessments for a Drama (Las Vegas) vs Sports (BB & FB), PLUS the commercials, which were of different quality (RedLobster looked delicious at any rec mode ).

I was able to get a good assessment of the original PQ cuz I watched each RTD, looking for key areas to compare, like the effect of fast movement on edges, facial sharpness, etc. "Excellent" means I could not see a diff. from the original. "Good" means there was some visible softness but really hard to tell w/o a direct comparison to the original (i.e., I wouldn't have noticed anything "wrong" w/the pic if I hadn't seen the original.... many times!). "Fair" and "Poor" mean there was increasingly noticeable softening, mosquito noise, fuzzy edges, etc.

Mode-Conversion Dubs from 1-hr-HQ to Other Rec Modes with Internal Drives
From 1-hr-HQ rec. of digital HD channels in analog cable feed

RTD Mode PQ Drama PQ Sports*
2-hr-SP Excellent Good
2.5-hr-SPP Good Good
3-hr-LP Good Good>Fair
4-hr-EP Good Fair
6-hr-SLP Good Poor

*See this help file for info on recording fast-action field sports where fast-moving players are teeny-weeny objects on large field.

Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

Mode-Conversion Dubbing from 2-hr-SP Tape to 2.5-hr-SPP DVD

Note 1: This discussion assumes recording from digital channels... recordings from analog channels will be hard-pressed to retain PQ, much less improve it!

Note 2: These RTD mode-conversion tests were all done with the INTERNAL DRIVES of a 3575. You WILL get different and lower-quality results if you introduce an outside source, like a DVD recorded in a diff. recorder, a separate DVD player, Composite or S-Video cables, etc.

I copied a 1994 commercial VHS movie from the original tape to my 3575 HDD in 2-hr-SP rec mode using COMPOSITE Y/W/R RCA CABLES, which is considered by many to be lowest quality connection. So, my reported results here should be considered as WORST-CASE since S-Video connection should produce an even better end product.

The SP HDD title turned out to be 2:22:05, so too long to fit on a DVD with HSD (2:10:00 max.), so I dubbed the movie to a DVD-R using AUTO, which selected the SPP mode (nearest, best mode for total length).

I asked my wife, who has critical nose and eyes, to see if she could tell any difference between the SP original and the SPP copy on disc. She said there was a "very minute" difference in PQ.

Based on my experience with mode-conversion dubbing of digital HD programs using the internal drives, I believe if I had used an S-Video connection instead of composite for the original copy-to-HDD, she wouldn't have been able to detect that "minute" difference cuz the original copy on HDD would have been a better source for the SPP conversion.

Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

Real-Time Dub Smooths Edit Points

One other benefit to RTD is that it re-encodes the entire program, which recreates the Group of Pictures (GOP) that are disrupted when we delete scenes. This makes those edit points smooth again since the MPEG2 stream has been recreated in new GOPs.

Go back to List. ...... Go to main list of help files.

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post #92 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 03:41 PM
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Just thought I'd post my findings with my 3575. After spending ~1hr setting up the contrast/brightness/backlight etc. to match the HDMI input on my Panasonic tc-32le60, I was quite happy with the PQ. I even comented to my wife that PQ looked better than my Sony progressive scan component-out DVD player, playing several of my "HQ test dvd's". I like to use the THX optomizer setup section of my Monsters Inc. dvd. I also use a Shania Twain music DVD, many of the music videos have great color, fast motion, and even a B&W video, for setting white and black levels. It takes a properly setup system to display B&W in true B&W, no tinting/colors.

Back to my findings, as noted at first the playback on the 3575 looked great, color and contrast were second to none(that I've tried). But it went down hill from there. I'm not sure what happend, I might have been trying the HDMI button to change various resolution outputs, not sure, but now the picutre is WAY to contrasty.
I could not even see the words THX on the optomizer screen, let alone the drop shadow behind it. Before whatever happened it was just fine. Anyway now I have to have the brightness on my Panny tv, set all the way up, to see anything. I also cannot, no way see the drop shadow behind THX(hope you know what I mean by THX).
I've tried all the settings on the 3575 to help correct things. I do have one question about the 3575 HDMI setup though. What is the difference between RGB and YCbCr HDMI output? Why would I want to use one, over the other. The manual does not explain why one would choose one over the other, with the exception of "if conneted device is not compatable with YCbCr, the output will automatically be RGB". Does this mean that YCbCr is better than RGB, if your monitor is capabable it? I do notice something does change when I try each, but I wouldnt say one was better than another.
Also in the RGB mode I have a choice of "normal or Enhanced" If I choose RGB, then "normal" the video is slightly less contrasty, but still WAY too much.

I have also tired all the output resolutions. 480p, 720p and 1080i. Note I do not get the option for 1080p, so if I read the manual correct, does this mean that my tv is not capable of displaying that resolution? I guess there's no reason to buy a 1080p HD dvd player then, at least with my monitor... Of cource I have set up the 3575 to output progressive.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I suppose I could swap the cables with my component Sony dvd player to see if it were a cable/hdmi out problem. It's just that previously I did have a Panny es-25 upconverting dvdr w/hdmi out, in place of this 3575, and I never had this contrast issue.
I suppose I could give another 3575 a try, I did read many older posts about this machine, some people really bashing the PQ, but then some people saying how good it was. Maby they just have a few lemons out there, that have bad outputs. I know first hand Panny's have there fair share of gremlins, but PQ has never been one, at least in my case.
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post #93 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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"Bashing the PQ"... haven't read that before in this forum.

YCbCr is digital Component video, which is what's on a commercial DVDs. If your TV is YCbCr compatible, that would be the best setting for HDMI. I'd choose RGB if using Component cables since that's the analog Component.

Normal and enhanced RGB change contrast, as you noted. Choose the one you like best.

An HDMI res not selectable is supposed to show your TV does not accept that res. You might have a 720p TV?

Several people have found HDMI best when set to output at 480p (me too).

The "sudden" change from great to poor PQ sounds like something "snapped" in the unit, if there was no other input change from you. Can't think of any settings that might cause a drastic change as you describe. Might have to take back or swap units?
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post #94 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 04:11 PM
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I think by "bashing the PQ" I was refering to someone who was not happy watching HD TV thru the 3575, of cource he was told it would be dumbed down to 480i, and to not expect HD out of this unit. I should have clarified.
And yes, my display is 720p, but I can select 1080i output from the 3575 and it works fine, also I watch 1080i OTA HD TV, all the time...
I think I will try and track down another one. Walmart does have a great return/exchange policy.
One last thing, is there a way to reset this unit back to "out of box state". Maby I could give that a whirl. I tried the reset option in one of the setup screens, but I'm not sure if it was back to "out of box" state. Could you confurm? thanks again.
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post #95 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

...One last thing, is there a way to reset this unit back to "out of box state". Maby I could give that a whirl. I tried the reset option in one of the setup screens, but I'm not sure if it was back to "out of box" state. Could you confurm? thanks again.

Hit "Skip" then 1 2 3 on the remote.
At the info screen, hit the OK\\Enter key
and the unit will be reset to factory settings
(to exit without a reset, hit the Back key).
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post #96 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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How To Kill the 2160A Finalize/Format/Erase Bug Without Pesticides!

10/12/09 - It turns out you can kill the mysterious "FW Bug" in the 2160A without pesticides... it has a very simple workaround:

1. Keep your timer programs intact.

2. Set your 2160A's input to L3 (DV) with Source button on remote.

3. Finalize, Format and Erase away!


Important notes:

  1. To Format a new DVD±RW disc for 1st use, you MUST have the unit on L3 BEFORE inserting the disc cuz the Formatting starts immediately w/o any user action. A +RW formats quickly but a -RW takes a minute or so. You'll see chasing lines in the front-panel display. RW discs only need one initial formatting for continual use. DVD±R don't get formatted, so no special actions reqd before 1st use.
     
  2. To Erase an RW or Finalize any recorded discs, you can insert the disc first, set Source to L3 (DV), open the Disc Edit menu and select option (after the disc loads, of course, ~20 sec). However, it might be better to develop a habit of setting the 2160A on L3 first, before inserting a disc for any Disc Edit op?
     
  3. While on L3, short "flashes" on screen mean nothing... don't worry about them.
     
  4. While on L3, don't press any buttons other than the Setup button to get to the Disc Edit option you need. Don't get curious or frisky with other buttons, esp. SKIP + # buttons... I've already done that!
     
  5. Remember, Finalizing still can't be done if any timer rec program is due to start within 1-hour of Finalize start, and an RW initial Format or post-rec Erase still needs at least 15 minutes.
     
  6. Setting the 2160A on L3 dumps the accumulated buffer and stops background recording.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

November 28, 2009

Dear Mr. Funai:

I believe I've found the EXACT cause of the 2160A FW bug that doesn't allow Disc Edit ops if any timer rec programs are set, and the reason setting the machine on L3 works as an operational fix:

Per the manual, the 2160A is SUPPOSED to stop autostart recording (AR) when a user selects any option in the Disc Edit menu. My original 2160 does, but I'm 99.999999% sure the 2160A doesn't.

The reason L3 works is because it DOES stop AR, which is reqd for a Disc Edit op cuz these DVDRs can't simultaneously record/auto-record to the HDD and perform an "editing" op on a DVD, like Format, Erase or Finalize.

I checked my original 2160 to see if it stopped AR when I selected a Disc Edit menu option. I inserted an unfinalized disc, opened the Disc Edit menu, selected Edit Disc Name, exited that menu after a few sec, then checked AR by pressing the PREV button, and the time counters started at a new zero (0) point with only a few sec of total AR time in the buffer each time I did this. That means the AR buffer had been dumped and AR had been stopped while in that Disc Edit menu option.

So, Mr. Funai, if you would check the FW for the 2160A, I believe you'd find a missing command to STOP AR WHEN A DISC EDIT OPTION WAS SELECTED AND IN USE, LIKE FORMAT, ERASE, FINALIZE AND EDIT DISC NAME.

Seems like a simple fix that maybe you'd find the time to incorporate and offer for download soon!

Yours Truly,
All 2160A Users

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Some have expressed interest in how I came up with the L3 workaround, so here's a brief explanation.

After lots of unsuccessful tests with different settings suggested by many people, this problem seemed to be unsolvable by us. The only workaround had been to delete all timer-rec programs before doing any Disc Edit op (Format/Erase/Finalize)... a royal pain in the arse!

I kept checking the Funai FW download page to no avail... a FW update really didn't appear to be forthcoming.

On 10/12/09, knowing how frustrated 2160A users must be, I decided to re-address some nagging questions I had, which led to a provable theory of how to kill the bug without a FW update. The thought process went something like this.

Normally, there's a connection between timer rec programs and the Disc Edit ops like Format, Erase and Finalize. A RW Format or Erase can't be started unless there's at least 15-min. before the next timer program, and a -R/+R/-RW Finalize must have at least 1-hour.

The E19 FW Bug in the 2160A was different in that it would allow users to start a Disc Edit op, but it would fail at the 90% point... about the time for a "write-to-disc" op. This suggested a "read-write" component instead of, or in addition to, a program-timer component... maybe some sort of "interference" going on between the two?

E19 is stated as "Safety Stop during editing." The "during editing" was obviously the Disc Edit read-write op it was involved in at the time (Format/Erase/Finalize), and "Safety Stop" meant the FW saw a problem during that read-write op that reqd it to abort the process.

That "problem" must be more than the next timer rec start time since the process would start OK, and the only read-write op going on at the 90% point is Autostart Recording (AR).

What if AR was THE problem? And if so, was there a way to stop, or suspend, it to see if the "interference" would go away and allow Disc Edit ops with timer programs set? Only chance to do that for "bug-killing" purposes seemed to be opening one of the menus that dump the buffer or setting the Source to a line input. The menus were out cuz that would preclude opening the Disc Edit menu. That left only a line input.

I had tested L1 and L2 before on my original 2160, so I just confirmed again that they restarted AR after they dumped the buffer. However, my Eureka! moment came when I realized I had never tested L3. When I did, it dumped the buffer as expected, but it ALSO suspended AR for as long as the machine was on L3... unlike L1 and L2, it won't start ANY recording without a DV source connected. While in this "permanent" waiting mode, it also allowed me to open the Disc Edit menu and perform disc ops in my original 2160!

Since I don't have a 2160A, I couldn't test the full theory on the so-called FW bug, but armed with my newfound operating info and unproven theory, I asked for a volunteer who had a 2160A to do a Finalize test while on L3. Artwire responded, did the test and proved my theory: L3 worked as the FW bug killer! He also tested RW Format and Erase and found both also worked while on L3.
 

    
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post #97 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 04:27 PM
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OK, which one is it? Do they both work. I'm a little reluctant to try a reset on a DVDR, after odd results I had with my Panny EZ series DVDR.
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post #98 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Try Chuck's SKIP-1-2-3 first. Should be very safe, but some have said it didn't reset everything. If not satisfied with that, try the power cord option.

The "Reset All" in the Setup menu just resets the menu options.
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post #99 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

*Advantages of a Hard Disk Drive (HDD) in a DVDR*


4. Play and Record Simultaneously. What's that you say... do both at the same time? Yup! Timer recording one of your weekly shows, but want to Play something else from the HDD or DVD? No problem... it's multi-tasking! You really will have a hard time explaining this new "multi-tasking" machine to certain people... who will remain un-named by me... you know who they are!




Hey all! I am a happy PIO640 owner looking for second DVR. I've been very happy with my PIO, but this Philips caught my eye.

I seem to remember an older Philips or maybe a Panasonic DVR (I've looked at so many different ones over the past year I can't keep them strainght any more), that you could NOT 'chase play' your timer recording that was in progress.

Before I order this one, I just wanted to make sure that you could actually watch, pause, rewind a timer recording in progress.

I also want to make sure that you can watch another recorded show or play a DVD while you are timer recording.

Thanks!

RF
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post #100 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardfalco View Post

Hey all! I am a happy PIO640 owner looking for second DVR. I've been very happy with my PIO, but this Philips caught my eye.

I seem to remember an older Philips or maybe a Panasonic DVR (I've looked at so many different ones over the past year I can't keep them strainght any more), that you could NOT 'chase play' your timer recording that was in progress.

Before I order this one, I just wanted to make sure that you could actually watch, pause, rewind a timer recording in progress.

I also want to make sure that you can watch another recorded show or play a DVD while you are timer recording.

Chase play a recording in progress Yes!

Simultaneous timer record and play Yes!

I also own a Pio 640... a good combination with the 3575!

How do you get your TV signal?
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post #101 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 09:03 PM
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Thanks for the quick response!

I have analog cable from Comcast...any issues with analog cable and this machine?

I'm a little gun shy after a bought a DVR a couple of years ago from Wal-mart that would not allow you to chase play a timer recording in progress...it also continously recorded what ever channel you were on.

Can't remember if it was a Philips or Panasonic...

RF
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post #102 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardfalco View Post

Thanks for the quick response!

I have analog cable from Comcast...any issues with analog cable and this machine?

I'm a little gun shy after a bought a DVR a couple of years ago from Wal-mart that would not allow you to chase play a timer recording in progress...it also continously recorded what ever channel you were on.

Can't remember if it was a Philips or Panasonic...

RF

Yes, virtually ALL the people who have a digital tuner dropout problem are on analog cable. I think the odds are 43% that you might have that problem.

I have two units that do that but only if I do a "stress test" by surfing madly and continuously until "blue-screen." I can get digital channels back by toggling to the analog tuner then back again. My units never fail to tune digital channels on startup and have never missed a timer rec. In normal use, they're perfect. I also have one of the earliest-built units (Apr 2007) that's never lost tuning, even when "stress-tested."

Philips will replace units that exhibit the problem.
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post #103 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 09:23 PM
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I have read (in this forum) about the digital channel drop out....I'm not sure that I understand the problem exactly though.

The digital tuner only loses the digital channels sometimes? Since I only have analog cable, would I only see problems (possibly) if I tried to tune an over the air digital channel?

Guess I am a little lost with the Digital vs. Analog tuner...

RF
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post #104 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardfalco View Post

I have analog cable from Comcast...any issues with analog cable and this machine? RF

Depending where you are, Comcast sends the same signal down the cable here in Houston. I subscribe to digital and have a STB to get HDTV but I have a friend at work who only subscribes to the basic analog service with no box and he plugged the cable into his Vizio HDTV and scanned the cable input and he gets the free HDTV signal along with the analog channels so you might try and do a scan when you get the Philips.

I've been called a storehouse of worthless information many times.
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post #105 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by richardfalco View Post

I have read (in this forum) about the digital channel drop out....I'm not sure that I understand the problem exactly though.

The digital tuner only loses the digital channels sometimes? Since I only have analog cable, would I only see problems (possibly) if I tried to tune an over the air digital channel?

Guess I am a little lost with the Digital vs. Analog tuner...

RF

IF a unit you get DOES have the digital tuner problem, you might be like me an never notice it. Some units have NO problems on analog-only cable (I have one), and others lose tuning faster than others. I think it's related to "analog interference" (Philips' words) and Philips says its a hdwe fix.

Anyway, I'm on TW cable, and it seems most people with the more serious problem are on Comcast. No guarantees there tho.

The problem is that, if you tune a digital channel and surf to another, the screen may go "blue-screen" (no pic) and all the digital channels will go blue-screen. Some have seen the channels come back as they surfed further or let it sit. On mine, I can only lose tuning with a "stress test".. 60 or more FAST round-trips thru channels... and then I can get them back by toggling the DTV/TV button.

As expected, no problems with analog tuner... it's only the digital QAM tuner. People on OTA antenna and digital cable have virtually no problems with tuning.
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post #106 of 25869 Old 12-08-2007, 10:32 PM
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Thanks!

Looks like this is about the best thing going for DVRs right now...
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post #107 of 25869 Old 12-10-2007, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

Don't think so. You should be OK based on my experience with my basic analog cable from TW. Here are the DIGITAL channels my LCD TV gets compared to the same channels in my 3575:

Net.........TV CH.....3575 CH
CW21.......60-703...60.1
Fox6HD....60-706...60.2
My68........60-711...60.3
DiscHD......75-10....75.1
ESPNHD....76-1......76.1
TNT.TV.....78-300...78.1
TBS.com...83-205...83.3
ESPN2HD..83-754...83.4

Somehow the 3575 finds those channels "in the clear" (not scrambled) and assigns them its own single-digit number.

One thing of note: when I did my original scan, the two 83.x channels weren't picked up. I only knew they were there when I got my new LCD TV. Used Manual Channel Preset to enter 83, but it said Scrambled, went to 83.2, same thing, went to 83.3 and 83.4, and there they were!

Not sure if those two channels were there on first scan or recently added.

Edit: Just realized that those two 83.x channels might have been "missed" on original scan cuz there was no 83.1 (scrambled)! If that's the case, other people may have digital channels they haven't found yet either. Might be a good idea to correlate your TV channels (if digital) with what your 3575 picks up and see what's "hiding" cuz the 3575 didn't find a XX.1 channel???


wabjxo thanks for the info....in my case it did pick up 83.11 - Universal HD but not 83.300...now when you say to do a manual scan...as that the option under setup > channels > manual ? When I do that and type in 83 it goes right to the located 83.11 but I dont see a way to advance or scan past that. Or do you mena just manually entering 83.1, 83.2 etc ? Thanks for the help.
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post #108 of 25869 Old 12-10-2007, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tayovm View Post

wabjxo thanks for the info....in my case it did pick up 83.11 - Universal HD but not 83.300...now when you say to do a manual scan...as that the option under setup > channels > manual ? When I do that and type in 83 it goes right to the located 83.11 but I dont see a way to advance or scan past that. Or do you mena just manually entering 83.1, 83.2 etc ? Thanks for the help.

Hey, thanks for pointing out an error in my instruction!

I FIRST went thru the 83.1 etc. channels on the regular tuner (just entering 831, 832, etc.) and found 83.1 Scrambled, then 83.2 Scrambled, then 83.3 tuned in, so THEN I brought up the Manual Channel Preset menu while on that channel, then ADDED it! That brought in ALL the channels in the 83 group.

With Channel up/dn, I go thru 83.1 and 83.2 as "Scrambled" then tune 83.3 and 83.4 normally.

So, start by finding your first tunable minor channel in a major group, like 83, then use the Manual Channel Preset menu to actually tune it in permanently. It should bring in any channel in that group that's tunable?
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post #109 of 25869 Old 12-10-2007, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

I went thru the 83.1 etc. channels on the regular tuner (just entering 831, 832, etc.) and found 83.1 Scrambled, then 83.2 Scrambled, then 83.3 tuned in, so I brought up the Manual Channel Preset menu while on that channel, then ADDED it! That brought in ALL the channels in the 83 group.

With Channel up/dn, I go thru 83.1 and 83.2 as "Scrambled" then tune 83.3 and 83.4 normally.

So, start by finding your first tunable minor channel in a major group, like 83, then use the Manual Channel Preset menu to actually tune it in permanently. It should bring in any channel in that group that's tunable?

Must not be tunable...when I manually key in 83.1 it just shows the scanning and then lands on 83.11, same happens for any other 83.x before .11 and even after .11 up to .20 just reverts back to .11 I guess I will keep trying higher than .20 when I am bored =]
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Originally Posted by tayovm View Post

Must not be tunable...when I manually key in 83.1 it just shows the scanning and then lands on 83.11, same happens for any other 83.x before .11 and even after .11 up to .20 just reverts back to .11 I guess I will keep trying higher than .20 when I am bored =]

REVISED: When you enter 83.1 and it goes to 83.11, that means your 83 group was NOT added, I believe.

When I Added my 83.3 channel, it added the entire 83 group, so when I enter 83.1, IT GOES TO 83.1 and shows "Scrambled" and stays there. When I channel up from there, it goes to 83.2 "Scrambled" and stays there. When I channel up from there, it goes to 83.3 tunable, then 83.4 tunable.

BUT, basically, your channel up/dn is NOT working like mine and suggests that you might have more unscrambled channels in your 83 group.

When you get a chance and if you care to, try DELETING 83.11, then starting over with entering 831 on the tuner (w/o the menu). If you get a static "Scrambled" but it stays on 83.1, you can start again from there and keep entering the next minor channel.

Once the FIRST UNSCRAMBLED channel appears, leave it on screen and bring up the Manual Channel Preset menu, and switch the checkmark from "Delete" to "Add." That should Add all the unscrambled channels in your 83 group.

If successful like mine, when you channel up/dn to 83, channel 83.1 should appear and show "Scrambled" and it shouldn't immediately go to the first unscrambled channel like yours is doing now.

You'll have to channel up thru all Scrambled channels until you get to your first tunable channel. I just enter the number directly when I want one of my hidden channels and I'm in a hurry.

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post #111 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 05:31 AM
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After living with my 3575 for several days now, and after doing a HARD reset, that is unplugging unit +30 seconds, then plugging back in, all seems well. I do have to say, the video output via the HDMI and Component (only 2 I have tried) is quite dark/contrasty. I have setup my Panny LCD TV, to max brightness and dialed down the contrast, which helps matters a lot. Note I've had several Panny DVDR's on those same inputs, and was able to use the center settings for bright/contrast and they looked fine. Maby it's a slight incompatability issue, but as long as I can adjust the tv, even if it's at its max, I'm ok with that.
I do have a few questions about the 3575.

1. Is there any way to have the unit automatically name the title, for the program being recorded? On my Digital Panny, on digital broadcasts, it automatically uses the program title broadcast by the tv station, it's really handy idetifying what each thumbnail is.

2. Is it possible to delete certin .x channel numbers from the scan list, but keep others in the same major. That is, can I delete ch 9.2, but keep ch 9 and 9.1 if so I cannot figure out how. It seem like I would have to delete all the 9's.

3. Is there anyway to pan and scan the zoomed picture. I see a way to zoom the picture, but not pan and scan the zoomed immage.

4. Is it possible to format, delete a DVD, while the HDD is recording. I would think it would be possible, but cant figure out how.

5. Is it possible to record a commercially recorded NCP DVD, to the HDD, or will it only do -+R/RW's to the HDD. As noted in a previous thread I was able to feed a NCP commercial disc from another DVD player, to the 3575's S-in, and record it to the HDD fine, but the same disc would not internally copy from DVD to HDD. Does this machine somehow know that a disc is commercially pressed, VS say a finalized -r disc.

After a rocky start, I seem to be really liking this DVDR W/HDD, and cant figure out how I've lived all these years with out a HDD. It's really cool to be able to record to the HDD, and watch dvd's at the same time. But this is probably old news, for those that have had HDD's before. Too bad there so scarce(even this model is hard to find) in the US.
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post #112 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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jjeff, erzug went thru the dark HDMI pic w/red bias with Philips troubleshooter and they determined his unit was defective. He took it back to WM and ordered one from Circuit City, and got a unit with the same pack date (Apr 2007). The CC unit not only had good HDMI pic but also got more digital channels.

Answer to your other questions:
1. No.
2. No.
3. No., just slide the zoom frame.
4. No.
5. I don't know. Unless you were trying to copy the disc using the Dubbing menu. Since that disc is most likely Finalized, being a commercial DVD, you can copy it (if truly NCP) using the DIRECT DUBBING button (bottom row). Start the DVD playing then, at any time during the playback, press the DIRECT DUBBING button and the DVD will copy to the HDD in real time, starting at the beginning of the DVD.
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post #113 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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NEW FEATURE?

2nd time I turned on my 3575 at the unit, standing right next to my Vizio LCD, and it turned the LCD on too!

If I can figure a way to make this repeatable, it'll be a FIRST for DVDRs... actually, a feature that should have been in the first DVDR since they're no good w/o a display, just another box!
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post #114 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 08:37 AM
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Since I won't be unboxing my 3575 until Christmas I was wondering about a playback feature that my current Pioneer has.
When playing back a recording, if I hit the fast forward, scan 1 has sound but scan 2 or higher does not. This is great to burn through the fluff parts of Deal or ND and still hear it.
If I am recording (no HDD in my PIO), scan 1 through scan 4 does not have sound which I am sure is a limitation because of playing a DVD that I am recording.
Does the 3575 have sound when fast-forwarding on any FF speeds?
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post #115 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GSfromCT View Post

Since I won't be unboxing my 3575 until Christmas I was wondering about a playback feature that my current Pioneer has.
When playing back a recording, if I hit the fast forward, scan 1 has sound but scan 2 or higher does not. This is great to burn through the fluff parts of Deal or ND and still hear it.
If I am recording (no HDD in my PIO), scan 1 through scan 4 does not have sound which I am sure is a limitation because of playing a DVD that I am recording.
Does the 3575 have sound when fast-forwarding on any FF speeds?

Yes, in fact it has 2 "Rapid Play" speeds with sound: slower (0.8X) and faster (1.3X)... bottom right button on remote.

Its "regular" FF speeds, w/o sound, are 2X, 20X and 40X.

P.S. Has 3 slo-mo speeds also, after pressing Pause: 1/3X, 1/8X and 1/16X fwd, same back except 1/4X instead of 1/3X.
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post #116 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 01:06 PM
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GSfromCT, yes as Wabjxo said the 3575 does have rapid play at 1.3x, which is quite intelagable as well as a good picture. A sony player that I have, has .6x up to 1.4x. The 1.4x is a little fast to understand, and on the 1.3x the video is quite jerky. I'm glad the 3575 has the 1.3x and is not jerky. I think it's the fastest a person can speed up the material, and still comprehend whats going on. That said for just faster scanning w/audio, I like my older Panny's which have 2x w/sound. The new EZ series Panny's have cut the sound on the 2x speed

Wabjxo, I couldnt figure out what you were saying about the 3575 turning on your Vizio. Are you saying that the remote code for the Power on, of the 3575 is the same as Vizio? If so I personally would not like that. Sometimes I would want to turn off the 3575, but not the Vizio. I can check with my 3575 remote. I have a Vizio 20" LCD, which is in another room than my 3575, but I could check if you want to varify it.

Also, are you saying that using the direct dubbing button, that I have to start the copy at the beginning of the program? cant I start the dub after the program has started(to eliminate material in the beginning that I dont want to record), and pause the record, for example during a commercial on the dvd.

I suppose I could exchange the 3575, to see if it helped the dark HDMI/Component picture, but as noted with the brightness Maxed out on my Panny TV, the video IS bright enough. Just no head room, if I ever wanted to turn it up more. Bummer on the inability to selectivly delete .x channels. In my case I have several minor channels that I dont care to have in my scan list, but I do like one of the minors. I have never seen a digital device not be able to selectivly do this, but then again I havent seen everything out there either.
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post #117 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Wabjxo, I couldnt figure out what you were saying about the 3575 turning on your Vizio. Are you saying that the remote code for the Power on, of the 3575 is the same as Vizio? If so I personally would not like that. Sometimes I would want to turn off the 3575, but not the Vizio. I can check with my 3575 remote. I have a Vizio 20" LCD, which is in another room than my 3575, but I could check if you want to varify it.

No remote control involved. Standing closely in front of my 47" Vizio LCD, press Standby/On button on front of 3575, Vizio turned on too, twice in 6 months.

Quote:
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Also, are you saying that using the direct dubbing button, that I have to start the copy at the beginning of the program? cant I start the dub after the program has started(to eliminate material in the beginning that I dont want to record), and pause the record, for example during a commercial on the dvd.

You have no choice on starting point. It's programmed to start the dub from frame 1, same as my Pio 640.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I suppose I could exchange the 3575, to see if it helped the dark HDMI/Component picture, but as noted with the brightness Maxed out on my Panny TV, the video IS bright enough. Just no head room, if I ever wanted to turn it up more. Bummer on the inability to selectivly delete .x channels. In my case I have several minor channels that I dont care to have in my scan list, but I do like one of the minors. I have never seen a digital device not be able to selectivly do this, but then again I havent seen everything out there either.

If you've tried all the HDMI setting combos, you might have no choice but to exchange it, like Erzug did.

I have to keep my Scrambled channels 83.1 and 83.2 so I can keep 83.3 (TBS) and 83.4 (ESPN2HD). A bummer, but not a really bad thing to have 2 extra (hidden) channels I didn't knoiw were there!?
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post #118 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 02:16 PM
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Wabjxo, I knew Vizio's were a pretty good TV, but didnt realize they were psychic.......Could it be that you have a HDMI cable connected from the 3575 to your Vizio? I think HDMI has the capability to do something like this. I know on my Panny TV, there's something in the setup about CNTL w/hdmi, but I have it off. I personally would rather choose what and when I want to turn equip off/on. JMO
Is there a way to play a dvd on the 3575, and then pause the recording HDD to edit out unwanted parts? If not I am stilll destin to tie a external dvd player to my 3575's S-in, to edit out parts of the DVD that I dont want on the HDD. If so, that kinda stinks, I do that all the time with my Sony player and Panny DVDR, I record TV to the DVD, then play the DVD back, and edit out the commercials. Cant believe they would not enable pausing the HDD, while the DVD continues playing internally.
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post #119 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Wabjxo, I knew Vizio's were a pretty good TV, but didnt realize they were psychic.......Could it be that you have a HDMI cable connected from the 3575 to your Vizio? I think HDMI has the capability to do something like this. I know on my Panny TV, there's something in the setup about CNTL w/hdmi, but I have it off. I personally would rather choose what and when I want to turn equip off/on. JMO

HDMI is connected but no 3575 settings that trigger an interaction with connected components. Dunno!

Quote:
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Is there a way to play a dvd on the 3575, and then pause the recording HDD to edit out unwanted parts? If not I am stilll destin to tie a external dvd player to my 3575's S-in, to edit out parts of the DVD that I dont want on the HDD. If so, that kinda stinks, I do that all the time with my Sony player and Panny DVDR, I record TV to the DVD, then play the DVD back, and edit out the commercials. Cant believe they would not enable pausing the HDD, while the DVD continues playing internally.

You mention two different things in ways you "used to do it." Using your Sony player to play a DVD to the 3575 works the same way: PLAY, REC, PAUSE the rec. where you want to cut sections.

An internal DVD can only be copied thru the Dubbing menu (unfinalized disc) or DIRECT DUBBING button (finalized discs, starts from beginning of disc). In either case, they're automated ops so no pausing on the record or play side.

If you play a DVD internally and press REC, you'll be recording whatever the tuner is set on, not the DVD.
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post #120 of 25869 Old 12-11-2007, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

...Is there a way to play a dvd on the 3575, and then pause the recording HDD to edit out unwanted parts? If not I am stilll destin to tie a external dvd player to my 3575's S-in, to edit out parts of the DVD that I dont want on the HDD. If so, that kinda stinks, I do that all the time with my Sony player and Panny DVDR, I record TV to the DVD, then play the DVD back, and edit out the commercials. Cant believe they would not enable pausing the HDD, while the DVD continues playing internally.

Why not simply dub the DVD to the 3575's HDD,
then use Scene Delete to remove the commercials?
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