When should i consider using pre amps or amps? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 08-28-2012, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an Onkyo TX-NR609 i got this receiver as part of the 5.1 package now given i start to upgrade the speakers at what point should i consider getting a pre amp or amp?
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post #2 of 13 Old 08-28-2012, 11:37 PM
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Well you're using a preamp and an amp now, they're just incorporated together in your AVR. I don't believe that AVR has pre-outs except for a single sub pre-out (i.e. it doesn't have pre-outs for each channel to let it act as a pre-amp) so you'd need a different AVR or processor or pre-amp if you want to go with a separate amplifier. Sometimes a better value for a pre-amp is to get an AVR that has pre-outs to give you that flexibility down the line....or a processor or separate pre-amp. All depends on what you want to do down the line as to whether different and/or separate components make more sense than your current AVR. What speakers do you have, what do you use them for (movies and/or music?), what size room do you have, etc all will play a part.

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post #3 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the feed back. Right now i'm just using the speakers that came with the receiver the whole set is the onkyo ht-s7409, i watch a lot of movies and i do use it for music sometimes, but i would like to upgrade the speakers at some point. my living room is about 15'x14' its in an apartment.
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post #4 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 11:59 AM
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The 609 is a very good "entry" level receiver. If you get effecient speakers you won't need more power than what the 609 can put out and even if you don't get effecient speakers, you're in an apt so I doubt you need to be able to hit really loud levels. The only reason to upgrade from the 609 would be for more features such as: a better version of Audyssey, more HDMI ins/outs, etc.... Depending on how good of quality you wanna have you may consider just upgrading the front 3 speakers and the sub for now and worry about the surrounds later.

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post #5 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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@Flickhtguru thanks for the feedback. i would really like to upgrade to martin logans, but i dont have the money to get the electromotion esl that i want so i was thinking bout these http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Motion-10-Floorstanding-Speaker/dp/B0035FZ142 i dont mind getting loud sometimes my neighbors are really cool with it.
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post #6 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 12:57 PM
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Those speakers are nominally rated at 4 ohm and may present a more difficult load to an amp. The Onkyo likely won't have an issue, but if driven hard and long enough could be a problem, especially if there are demands below 4 ohm at various points in the frequency response (Ohm ratings of a single number aren't all that revealing as the ohm load is more complex than that; you might want to read up on that subject a bit like this article http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Impedance.htm)

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post #7 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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@loveinthehd thanks for the input, i actually have a little knowledge about that as i used to do a lot of aftermarket car stereo installs but when it comes to home theater its like my mind goes blank,lol but i need to brush up on it to be honest. also been looking at these not sure if it was a good deal or not http://charlotte.craigslist.org/ele/3128582623.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well you're using a preamp and an amp now, they're just incorporated together in your AVR.

Is one better served, buying a separate amplifier and later, as technology advances, buying a preamp?

Our AVR (Marantz, SR5007) has a full set of preouts and I've toyed with the idea of a separate, Emotiva, XPA-5; 200wpc, amplifier.

The genesis of my thinking; if I have a separate amplifier, maybe as technology advances, my next purchase should be a preamp with EQ capability. Save a few hundred and maintain the amplifier quality a XPA-5 brings to the par-ta.

What says you?
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post #9 of 13 Old 02-27-2013, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dbjohnson85 View Post

...but when it comes to home theater its like my mind goes blank,...

And I know exactly doodle about car stereo systems. tongue.gif

...biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 13 Old 02-27-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well you're using a preamp and an amp now, they're just incorporated together in your AVR.

Is one better served, buying a separate amplifier and later, as technology advances, buying a preamp?

Our AVR (Marantz, SR5007) has a full set of preouts and I've toyed with the idea of a separate, Emotiva, XPA-5; 200wpc, amplifier.

The genesis of my thinking; if I have a separate amplifier, maybe as technology advances, my next purchase should be a preamp with EQ capability. Save a few hundred and maintain the amplifier quality a XPA-5 brings to the par-ta.

What says you?

Separate pre-amps or processors tend to be pricey as they just don't have the economy of scale going on as opposed to AVRs; I'd just aim at an upper level AVR with preouts for switching/connectivity features as well as various DSP/room correction features. I use my current main AVR as a bit of both, I use two separate amps (which I've had for a long time, from before my first multi channel AVR) for my L/C/R and then use the AVR to power the surrounds and rear surrounds. I use the separate amps for the L/C/R as those speakers aren't super efficient (altho reasonable with a sensitivity of 86.5 dB anechoic) so I can go just a bit louder with a bit more headroom. Keep in mind it takes a doubling of amp power to gain 3dB, and that's only useful as long as your speakers can handle the additional power, too. That Emotiva seems decently priced, been thinking about getting one myself, the XPA3 (on sale for $599) while I have my Carver M500t's sent off for the MkII upgrade/refurbishing treatment...

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post #11 of 13 Old 03-03-2013, 06:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Separate pre-amps or processors tend to be pricey as they just don't have the economy of scale going on as opposed to AVRs; I'd just aim at an upper level AVR with preouts for switching/connectivity features as well as various DSP/room correction features. I use my current main AVR as a bit of both, I use two separate amps (which I've had for a long time, from before my first multi channel AVR) for my L/C/R and then use the AVR to power the surrounds and rear surrounds. I use the separate amps for the L/C/R as those speakers aren't super efficient (altho reasonable with a sensitivity of 86.5 dB anechoic) so I can go just a bit louder with a bit more headroom. Keep in mind it takes a doubling of amp power to gain 3dB, and that's only useful as long as your speakers can handle the additional power, too. That Emotiva seems decently priced, been thinking about getting one myself, the XPA3 (on sale for $599) while I have my Carver M500t's sent off for the MkII upgrade/refurbishing treatment...

As you suggest, currently we're using a Marantz, SR5007 which has a full set of preouts. Delivered from Vann's, it was $750.00. Agreed, a very nice, economy of scale, price. To drive the front three, an Emotiva, XPA-3 looks nice but I figure, why, for a few hundred dollars in savings, short change us and instead, look to pick up a XPA-5.

Should we pick up a XPA-5, we would have the five channel Amp but no pre-pro and my thinking is, are we better served with a pre-pro as other than to operate a Home Theater system, we don't use any of the other features inherent to the SR-5007?

My concern about the pre-pro's I've looked at is, I don't see them coming with an auto-EQ system like Audyssey, MultEQ XT or the preferable XT32 or are we better served, again as you suggest, buying up into a more capable AVR such as the Denon, 4311ci or the very nicely priced and full featured, Onkyo, TX-NR818 that comes with Audyssey, MultEQ XT32?

(I'm a Denon/Marantz fanboy and with it's noted problems, buying into Onkyo is a bit concerning and personally, I don't find a miniDSP to be attractive.)

-
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post #12 of 13 Old 03-03-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Separate pre-amps or processors tend to be pricey as they just don't have the economy of scale going on as opposed to AVRs; I'd just aim at an upper level AVR with preouts for switching/connectivity features as well as various DSP/room correction features. I use my current main AVR as a bit of both, I use two separate amps (which I've had for a long time, from before my first multi channel AVR) for my L/C/R and then use the AVR to power the surrounds and rear surrounds. I use the separate amps for the L/C/R as those speakers aren't super efficient (altho reasonable with a sensitivity of 86.5 dB anechoic) so I can go just a bit louder with a bit more headroom. Keep in mind it takes a doubling of amp power to gain 3dB, and that's only useful as long as your speakers can handle the additional power, too. That Emotiva seems decently priced, been thinking about getting one myself, the XPA3 (on sale for $599) while I have my Carver M500t's sent off for the MkII upgrade/refurbishing treatment...

As you suggest, currently we're using a Marantz, SR5007 which has a full set of preouts. Delivered from Vann's, it was $750.00. Agreed, a very nice, economy of scale, price. To drive the front three, an Emotiva, XPA-3 looks nice but I figure, why, for a few hundred dollars in savings, short change us and instead, look to pick up a XPA-5.

Should we pick up a XPA-5, we would have the five channel Amp but no pre-pro and my thinking is, are we better served with a pre-pro as other than to operate a Home Theater system, we don't use any of the other features inherent to the SR-5007?

My concern about the pre-pro's I've looked at is, I don't see them coming with an auto-EQ system like Audyssey, MultEQ XT or the preferable XT32 or are we better served, again as you suggest, buying up into a more capable AVR such as the Denon, 4311ci or the very nicely priced and full featured, Onkyo, TX-NR818 that comes with Audyssey, MultEQ XT32?

(I'm a Denon/Marantz fanboy and with it's noted problems, buying into Onkyo is a bit concerning and personally, I don't find a miniDSP to be attractive.)

-

5 channel amps could be nice to have but since surrounds don't usually need a lot, haven't gone that direction. My Onkyo has had no issues but I've read about other mfrs in some models having issues also (I only got two years from a Pioneer 919); seems there are mfg problems spread around pretty well. Emotiva's own pre-pro I thought about at one point but appears to have had several issues for owners (but then they're revamping it with the pending release of their new xmc-1 but believe both have Emotiva's own room correction software). Having some extra channels of amplification could come in handy with particularly the 818, as it has 9 ch capability but only comes with 7 ch of amp, so you could drive the entire front end with a 5 ch amp and let the avr do the rest. Not sure how a new pre-pro would be better than using the AVR you have, except to spend more money and/or lose features like you note with the room correction software. Do you use the room correction feature now? Thinking about using a mic/software combo with the miniDSP?

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post #13 of 13 Old 03-03-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Do you use the room correction feature now? Thinking about using a mic/software combo with the miniDSP?

Absolutely. Currently using a DSPeaker, Anti-Mode to help with subwoofer EQ'g effort's and then we run Audyssey, MultEQ XT for full spectrum EQ'g.

I purchased some recording gear (cables, microphone, mic stand and phantom power supply) and downloaded REW which is a pain to get up and running but once up and running, is nothing more than point and click. The price savings is small when compared to OmniMic but for the price, if buying separates, one gets a better choice of gear and cables when using REW.

I'm not so sure about the miniDSP but from all I've read, the miniDSP has much more flexibility then any other EQ'g solution and can be integrated with REW.
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Onkyo Tx Nr609 7 2 Channel Network Thx Certified A V Receiver , Receivers Amplifiers , Speaker Systems , Onkyo Ht S7409 7 2 Channel Network A V Receiver 5 1 Speaker Package
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