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post #91 of 242 Old 11-02-2008, 03:35 PM
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I'll show all details...comparison hasn't started yet.
As soon as my Eagles finish up this W I'll start.
I will say these are all being considered/compared for no room ambient light performance.
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post #92 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Throwing together what some might consider a temporary solution, using some neutral gray tinted paint and satin polyurethane, to find out that you have created a viewing experience that is akin to looking out an open window
ain't so bad either!

Is it possible to get this same experience using Black Widow or one of the other metallic paint mixes? Not in my limited experience. I should point out that I have only ever rolled my samples, so spray painting may make all the difference, I don't know. I certainly would encourage anyone that has considered picking up a Wagner Control Spray or the new Wagner Control Spray Plus to do so and see what they think.

Very sound and measured advice. Let it be known without any room for questioning (...as I've "seen it" not a "IMO"...) that in my "not so limited experience" and the posted results of a great many other users of correctly formulated and applied Metallic Mixes that transparency is not just possible.....it's a "given' trait of a correctly done DIY Screen, and one of the singularly most important aspects of what helps constitute a great screen, that I've elaborated upon for over 6 years now. It really should not be up for dispute, but Tiddler's qualifying statement about a lack of experience with such does allow for others to put such in the proper perspective.

Quote:


Very often the quest for something even better leads to something very good getting forgotten and then overlooked by those seeking a good DIY solution to their need for a screen to use with that new projector.

A simple truth is that had some individuals not been so determined to discount the use of metallics......and poly........and spraying, as being unnecessary, (...mostly for all the wrong reasons.. ...) a great many more individuals would have been the owners of higher performing and better looking screens than they now posses. This is born out by all of those who are rushing back from the "Easier' solutions to attempt the current offerings.

Quote:


In my opinion, if you did one of those double blind comparison tests, from a reasonable viewing distance, with all other things being equal, I doubt most people (myself included) could tell the difference between a dialed-in paint+poly screen and many of the more complex metallic mixes. You might notice some screen seem more transparent than others though. But I could be wrong.

And you are wrong on the first point..(but dead on with the second...) ...but I say that with all due respect, and all the while remembering your qualifying statement above.

Credit where credit is Due should be the rule, and "Johnny come latelys " to the use of Poly, and/or who have become "Metallic based mix" advocates should not forget that others have realized such potential a very long time ago. That goes for "Screen Transparency" as well.

Todd, continued statements alluding to a supposed belief that metallic based DIY screens cannot achieve Transparency are misleading and detrimental to the availability of choices a DIY'er can/should have these days. Knowing you and your desire to help DIY'ers achieve what's best for them, I choose to think that those statements and the potential for any disservice to members is strictly as you said it was..... due to limited experience.

So obviously if your cutting back on testing and such, and spraying a metallic mix isn't in your future, everyone must look to those who have had such experience for the actual facts pertaining thereof. That would suggest that to ascertain the correct facts, and not continue on under "assumptions', we should make a call for all metallic based Screen owners who rolled or sprayed to weigh in with their personal observations. Then perhaps the "Dog of Metallic Screen Transparency" can be put to rest.

Your new thread or mine?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #93 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I really don't want to carry on with the long running simple vs complex or paint+poly vs metallic mix dispute.

The motivation in starting this thread was centered around the largely ignored or forgotten simple improvements to a basic flat neutral gray screen. Screen transparency is an inherent benefit of these intermediate painted screen solutions. Given the brightness of many of the current crop of projectors, the simple low luster neutral gray and paint + satin poly solutions are very effective. For the vast majority of newbies who are more inclined to roll the paint, these solutions don't represent a compromise or settling for less. They will produce very good to excellent results if the surface is properly prepared and the paint is applied properly.

Biglyle took a chance and tried this simple paint + satin poly on his screen and was pleased with the results. So at least one member has benefited from some attention being brought to these simple solutions.

At one point I had a screen that was just Behr 4850 tinted ~N8. I recall on many occasions catching myself marveling at just how good the image looked on that screen. Now I have a Black Widow (BJA) screen. Now I am more likely to notice that I can see the screen in brighter panning images.

So I will concede that I have not tried everything that is out there. At the same time I have not seen anything that would motivate me to use more than a paint + satin poly mix if and when I can employ a fixed screen. For a retractable screen surface I recommend sticking with low luster self-priming paints like the Behr 4850 or the Valspar Duramax Flat.

If MississippiMan and others wish to advocate the use of mixes that employ various types of reflective particles I certainly would not recommend against it. I would however suggest that those who want to "see for themselves" need a good point of reference. It is easy to get a paint tinted to a similar shade of neutral gray and mix in some Minwax Satin Polycrylic to make a reference sample panel. I suspect most of the gray painted solutions will look better to anyone currently using a BOC or Kilz2 screen. This would be especially true, if they have an older projector with poor blacks and lower contrast and/or they have some level of ambient light to contend with. To truly judge the effectiveness of any mix or material you need a good reference panel to compare to. A good reference is NOT a flat paint tinted ~N8 gray neutral gray. It should be a neutral gray but at least use one of the known low luster paints or be fair and use a 3:1 mix of flat paint to satin poly or a 4:1 mix of matte paint to satin poly.
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post #94 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 08:37 AM
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MississippiMan.
I'm glad to see that you started a new thread. That would be a good place for you to promote your metallic mixes. Please let this one be about pushing the limits of simple painted screens by adding poly.
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post #95 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 08:40 AM
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Just my 02 cents before my full personal review tonight, I love metallic mixes.
I also like simple mixes.
I love any screen that costs ~1/5th of a commercial screen and gets within 10% of its' performance.
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post #96 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Just my 02 cents before my full personal review tonight, I love metallic mixes.
I also like simple mixes.
I love any screen that costs ~1/5th of a commercial screen and gets within 10% of its' performance.

Well said!

Make no mistake about it, I love my Black Widow (BJA) painted retractable screen. 99% of the time iI don't see the screen and just lose myself in the movie. I also loved my Behr 4850 ~N8 screen. In both cases the "V" waves in my screen are not visible and the image is quite watchable with a 60 watt lamp on in the back of the room.
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post #97 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

MississippiMan.
I'm glad to see that you started a new thread. That would be a good place for you to promote metallic mixes, and let this one be about pushing the limits of simple painted screens.


I concur. I suppose the driving motivation for making my own point was seeing any statement that alludes to metallic based screens being unable to provide Screen Transparency. As far as all the other desirable attributes that simple Grays can also provide, those too are beyond dispute, and this thread remains a great venue to explore such and make known to others what's possible.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #98 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 09:54 AM
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So, I have about 3/4 of a quart of Behr Silverscreen with the enamel #1850 base leftover from painting my current screen. I wanted to try a 106" + diag. screen with the Minwax satin poly mixed in. Do I have enough paint to do it? Also, with all this talk of acheiving transparency, for those of us that are rolling instead of spraying, has anyone tried Flotrol added to a mixture of paint and poly?
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post #99 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 10:28 AM
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I forgot to ask in the last post if adding poly to the Behr SS will darken the mix, lighten the mix, or would it remain the same? What about the use of Floatrol?
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post #100 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

So, I have about 3/4 of a quart of Behr Silverscreen with the enamel #1850 base leftover from painting my current screen. I wanted to try a 106" + diag. screen with the Minwax satin poly mixed in. Do I have enough paint to do it? Also, with all this talk of acheiving transparency, for those of us that are rolling instead of spraying, has anyone tried Flotrol added to a mixture of paint and poly?

Sounds like you have enough. Was it you that wanted to try a lighter shade? Do you have any white paint on hand? Adding some white semi-gloss would be ideal! Are you open to experimenting a little, or do you just want to get it done in one try?

If you use poly, the floetrol will not be of much benefit. The bottle says that it may affect sheen too, so it might be best to leave it out. I have used both together though on rolled screens.

Adding poly should not change the color.
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post #101 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

So, I have about 3/4 of a quart of Behr Silverscreen with the enamel #1850 base leftover from painting my current screen. I wanted to try a 106" + diag. screen with the Minwax satin poly mixed in. Do I have enough paint to do it? Also, with all this talk of acheiving transparency, for those of us that are rolling instead of spraying, has anyone tried Flotrol added to a mixture of paint and poly?

If you have 3/4 quart you could add 8oz. of the Minwax Satin Polycrylic to get a 3:1 mix of paint to polycrylic. The Behr Flat Enamel already has some sheen so the 3:1 might be a bit high. So you might want to reduce the polycrylic to about 6oz. instead. Given that a quart is enough paint for two coats on a 120" screen, you should still have enough to apply two coats to a 106" screen.

The Behr Flat Enamel does not leveled out very well, so the poly will help that at least. I would be interested in your observations with respect to the leveling effect of the polycrylic.

I have tried the Floetrol. It does significantly extend the dry time but I did not find it helps the paint level out very much. Certainly nothing like the polycrylic does.

From my Behr Sheen Investigations here are some photos of the roller texture:




Click images to enlarge.

10% Floetrol samples on the right.

It does help the leveling but nothing like the polycrylic.
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post #102 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 10:42 AM
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Thanks for the quick replies-

I just want to get it done. My time is limited. I think I'll leave out the Floetrol and just go with 6ounces of poly added to the SS 1850. I do have some UPW1050 at home. Do you think 2ounces will slightly lighten it? Maybe the 1050 flat is a bad idea.
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post #103 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

Thanks for the quick replies-

I just want to get it done. My time is limited. I think I'll leave out the Floetrol and just go with 6ounces of poly added to the SS 1850. I do have some UPW1050 at home. Do you think 2ounces will slightly lighten it? Maybe the 1050 flat is a bad idea.

If you wanted to lighten the shade a bit, the UPW 1050 would be good for that. I would be inclined to add at least 8oz. to your 3/4 quart of 1850. That will give you a quart of a bit lighter gray. Then add 8-10 ounces of the Satin Polycrylic. That is if you want to make it lighter or want to have a bit more than a quart to work with.

Is it safe to assume you have a Silverscreen painted screen already?
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post #104 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

Thanks for the quick replies-

I just want to get it done. My time is limited. I think I'll leave out the Floetrol and just go with 6ounces of poly added to the SS 1850. I do have some UPW1050 at home. Do you think 2ounces will slightly lighten it? Maybe the 1050 flat is a bad idea.

I would add 2 ounces of white to about 10 ounces of the SS if you want to lighten it just a little. (Three or four ounces if you want it significantly lighter.)
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post #105 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

If you wanted to lighten the shade a bit, the UPW 1050 would be good for that. I would be inclined to add at least 8oz. to your 3/4 quart of 1850. That will give you a quart of a bit lighter gray. Then add 8-10 ounces of the Satin Polycrylic. That is if you want to make it lighter or want to have a bit more than a quart to work with.

Is it safe to assume you have a Silverscreen painted screen already?

Yes, I've had my 84"x47" SS painted screen for about 4 years. The 4 year old leftovers appear to be fine inside the can. Any reason not to use it?

I'm going up in size to what should work out to approx. 108" diagonal.

I've always liked the SS, but wouldn't mind a little brighter screen without having to use the iris fully opened on my Sharp 12000mk2. The mk2 has very good black levels, but I've tried a sample of Wilsonart DW and I guess I'm just used to the black levels that a gray screen provides. The Fashion Grey conversely is too dark, even darker than my SS painted screen.

I'm very excited to try the polycrylic mix. It sounds like I will get that 3-D effect that I like based on what I'm reading in this thread.
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post #106 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

Yes, I've had my 84"x47" SS painted screen for about 4 years. The 4 year old leftovers appear to be fine inside the can. Any reason not to use it?

I'm going up in size to what should work out to approx. 108" diagonal.

I've always liked the SS, but wouldn't mind a little brighter screen without having to use the iris fully opened on my Sharp 12000mk2. The mk2 has very good black levels, but I've tried a sample of Wilsonart DW and I guess I'm just used to the black levels that a gray screen provides. The Fashion Grey conversely is too dark, even darker than my SS painted screen.

I'm very excited to try the polycrylic mix. It sounds like I will get that 3-D effect that I like based on what I'm reading in this thread.

Sometimes leftover paint gets clumps in it when it's old, and has been opened and closed a bunch. It's aggravating trying to deal with picking out a blob while trying to get a smooth texture free surface.
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post #107 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

Sometimes the paint gets clumps in it when it's old. It's too aggravating for me to deal with picking out a blob while I'm trying to get a smooth texture free surface.

With paint being as cheap as it is, I'd start with fresh paint, and use the leftover SS around the house if possible.

I tend to agree with this suggestion and would add that you should consider one of the neutral gray tints. Silverscreen is in the ball park but not really a neutral gray.

What will you be painting on? The same wall?
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post #108 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I would do in your situation.

First I would give the whole 106" screen area a sanding. Then I would use that UPW 1050 to lay down a couple of coats of flat white. Then lightly wet sand that with a sponge sanding block. This will provide a smooth surface that is uniform in color. If the UPW 1050 has a few lumps in it then you will be sanding them smooth.

Get a quart of the Behr 1850 Flat Enamel tinted as follows:

Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW #1850 (or #4850)
0 6 0 Lamp Black
0 1 1 Brown Oxide
0 0 1 Medium Yellow

I understand you can get 8oz. cans of the Minwax Satin Polycrylic at Home Depot in the United States. That is all you need. This combination of tinted 1850 and a small can of polycrylic should keep the costs down if that is an issue. If cost is not an issue, then the Behr ULTRA 4850 is a really nice paint to use instead of the 1850.

Be sure to get a new low nap (3/16" or 1/4") roller. One of the white lint free ones. A roller that has been used and cleaned will not produce as smooth a finish.

This will produce a neutral gray screen a bit lighter in shade than the SS. Be sure to do a contrast and brightness calibration for the new shade of gray. If you want to stay close to the shade of SS then use this formula:

Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW (1050,1850,4850)
0 8 0 Lamp Black
0 1 1 Brown Oxide
0 0 1 Medium Yellow

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post #109 of 242 Old 11-03-2008, 02:32 PM
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I'm trying to decide whether or not to get a piece of 5'x8' laminate (expensive but lightweight) from Home Depot or... drywall ($12.50 for a 1/2" thick , 54"x 144") from a local drywall co.. I wish there was an oversized piece of masonite available, or oversized thrifty white hardboard, but I haven't found any.

I'll try mixing up my SS and see if it has any clumps. If it doesn't, I'll use it. If it does, I may try a 8.5 gray, but I know what I'm getting with SS as far as colors are concerned. I like it, but wouldn't mind going a touch lighter for whiter whites and slightly brighter image overall.
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post #110 of 242 Old 11-04-2008, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey E-A-G-L-E-S!

Have you taken a look at your test screens yet?

Any first impressions?
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post #111 of 242 Old 11-05-2008, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I just found the Black Widow comparison I did of the Behr Flat Enamel 1850 tinted . . .

Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW (1050,1850,4850)
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 Medium Yellow

. . . mixed 4:1 with Minwax Satin Polycrylic.

Of course this does not demonstrate the "Looking out an open window effect" but it does demonstrate that a neutral gray with the right amount of sheen can be quite effective.

Here are the photos:
Click images to enlarge.





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post #112 of 242 Old 11-05-2008, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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A few more comparison photographs:






Click images to see full size.
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post #113 of 242 Old 11-06-2008, 08:49 AM
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I must say that there is hardly any visual difference in these pics.
But that could be due to my monitor.
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post #114 of 242 Old 11-07-2008, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I must say that there is hardly any visual difference in these pics.
But that could be due to my monitor.

Well there is one really noticeable difference. Off axis the reference gray panels with the 25% polycrylic are much brighter:



Note: the panels on either side of the Black Widow AAA (Valspar Flat Enamel) are both the reference gray with 25% polycrylic added.

However on axis they look pretty similar:



To compare these side-by-side comparison photographs, without the quality of your monitor playing a part, use ColorPic to record and compare the RGB values in the image. These are not the true RGB values you would get from a spectrometer, so don't be mislead by anyone or misunderstand the meaning of these values. They are only a means to do relative measurements within one photograph. This is a very useful tool when proper side-by-side comparison photographs are used to evaluate the relative differences between two samples.

I would also like to stress that these are not screenies or screen shots, so don't discount them as such. These photographs include a reference white card on the right and the Whybal card at the center. You can use either of these reference areas to do a proper white balance on the photograph. By performing a white balance on the image, you will be calibrating out any errors due to my projector and my camera.
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post #115 of 242 Old 11-07-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post


These photographs include a reference white card on the right and the Whybal card at the center. You can use either of these reference areas to do a proper white balance on the photograph. By performing a white balance on the image, you will be calibrating out any errors due to my projector and my camera.

I'm confused by this.

The card on the right is white I assume.
The one on the left has some colors.

What is being projected? Specifically, what is being projected onto the cards?

Is the projector projecting its normal 4:3 or 16:9 image, or is it projecting all but the portions at the cards. In other words are you projecting a 20%,40%,60%,80%, or 100% 16:9 white field, or something more customized for use with the cards? I suspect that you are projecting onto the cards, but that somehow the light is blocked just outside the edges of the cards.

I assume that in the straight on shot that a 100% white field is being projected, even though it looks dim on my monitor. It looks more like 50%. If this is the case, you could also take the same photo with a 0%, or 10% (fade to black) field and see which panel is darker. (I'm assuming the camera can pick up enough light at that level with a slow shutter speed.) If the panels look the same with 0% thru 100% fields, and I suspect they would, then I think it would be questionable to suggest that one has better blacks or whiter whites than the other. After this, I'm thinking that some ambient light could be introduced from the sides and see which panel looks darker. I started to type "introduce light from straight on", but realized that would be the same as the light from the projector. So to compare ambient light performance from that location would be meaningless.
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post #116 of 242 Old 11-07-2008, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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In these two images . . .

. . . the entire area has an image of RGB = 255 255 255 projected on it. That is the image area as well as the boxes for the reference cards.

For the mirrored comparison images like these . . .



. . . the boxes have an RGB = 221 221 221 projected in them. I had to reduce the white for the reference cards so the photo would not be over exposed. If the image were properly white balanced the RGB values you would get in the white reference on the right should be equal and somewhere between 210 and 230.

For the last comparison photo I get 204 232 244. Therefore the image was not white balanced. You could download the image into a photo editor and use the white balance feature. Select the center of the white card as the reference sample. I did not bother because I was just trying to demonstrate the relative brightness between the two samples.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

. . . the entire area has an image of RGB = 255 255 255 projected on it. That is the image area as well as the boxes for the reference cards.

Why is the area around the cards dark if a white field is being projected onto that area?

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post #118 of 242 Old 11-07-2008, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

Why is the area around the cards dark if a white field is being projected onto that area?


I placed a black border area around the reference blocks to isolate it.

Here are some examples of the original images I was projecting.



These jpg were created specifically for side-by-side comparisons and included the areas for the reference cards.

Click here to view the entire set of comparison images.
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post #119 of 242 Old 11-09-2008, 07:01 AM
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So since the poly panel is brighter when viewed from off axis, it has a wider viewing cone. And for the same reason, it is logical that it will not be as good for ambient light from the sides.

So on axis they look about the same. Off axis, the poly is brighter. In an ambient light situation, the BW should be a little better.

With a higher percentage of poly, or more sheen, the advantages and dissadvantages could actually swap. Of course at some percentage, hotspotting would become a problem. Or would it?

After thinking about this some more, I questioned what I'm doing. Sort of anyway. Adding sheen increases on axis gain and reduces off axis gain. This is good if you are looking for a screen that is better than flat in an ambient light situation. It is also better in reducing the effect of screen generated ambient light. OK now for me, my room is a cave. Neither of the advantages above should do much for PQ in my room. My next thought is what about roller texture and how smooth the screen surface can be. What paint rolls and levels out the best? Does it stay the same after it cures? Adding semi-gloss as I have been doing definately makes it harder to get right. I've added poly too, but still, the semi-gloss may have been a bad idea. If adding poly helps, then does a very high percentage of poly help even more? If a poly topcoat doesn't hotspot, then why should a 50:50 or higher ratio have a hotspotting issue? What causes orange peel? Is it caused by the paint drying too fast? Should it be easier to get good results if I get the room temperature down below 60 degrees?

Found this screenie in the recycle bin.
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post #120 of 242 Old 11-28-2008, 07:26 AM
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Finally ready to do some screen runs again, just finished ht/media room redo.

So, my first question is, can I use 25% polycrylic with BW mix? I already have one coat of BW up on the screen, so I only have ~20 of mix left.(enough for a full second coat)
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