Wagner Control Spray "PLUS" spray Application Videos - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-30-2010, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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For those who now must purchase either the Wagner Control Spray Double Duty (self contained) or "Plus" model (separate Turbine), this Thread is intended to show the difference in both spray technique and how those units can put up more paint faster than previously shown.

I speak much about "balance', and in spray painting Screens, what you want is a balance between the amount of air pressure mixed with the paint volume. With HVLP painting, the term High Volume-Low Pressure means more Air is mixed directly into the paint (not pushing it), creating a fine, atomized mist. To do that, the paint cannot be too Thick. But with the BIG increase in air pressure available with the "DD and Plus" Wagner, a degree of 'cutting back' on the water used for dilution would seem a quick and sensible "fix".

In order, the first video shows my first spray attempt using the "Plus' model. The Mix was diluted as usual so in the respect I was already committed. I was using the larger Tip that comes with the "Plus" as well. The force of delivery surprised me.....as did the "height" and consistency (density) of the pattern.
Disclaimer: DO NOT try to go immediately back over an area after the first coat. I "very quickly"did because I thought I needed to even up a couple sparse areas, and in doing so I came extremely close to getting multiple runs.

LOUD AUDIO WARNING !!!

The following Videos have not been edited for volume or length. As such, PLEASE turn down your PC's Speakers before playing as the Turbine noise is quite loud due to the Camera being located close to the separate Turbine casing.

1st WoW coat


Second Coating w/ Larger Tip
2nd coat


3rd Coat using the Smaller Tip from a Wagner Control Spray I had brought with me. You can see how very much slower I could/was going. After the 1st two heavier coats, I surmised that all I needed was one more normal coat, so I applied such at what would be the normal speed using a standard Wagner.

3rd Coating


THAT was almost a disaster as well. Even with the smaller Tip, the "Plus" was laying down considerably more paint than the standard CS ever could/would. As a result, I did get 2-3 very small runs. But since they were on top of previously painted (...AND dried....) coats, they dabbed off easily with a slightly dampened rag and it was impossible to see those spots afterward.

Moral; Always assume that you are better off "Dusting" two finish coats that trying to lay down 1 thicker coating. Because....you are.

These next videos are from Memphis, TN where three Screens were painted under VERY windy conditions out in a Parking Lot!

This first Video shows just how windy it was. I had serious concerns that the spray would even hit the surface before being dispersed by the wind! (...never mind the risk of wind-blown debris...) But as the Restaurant/bar had just gotten both Carpet and painting done, painting 3 screens inside was not possible....or advised.

With the first attempt, painting 2 screens at once. Because of the brisk wind, I used the larger Spray Nozzle (Front End Kit) and simply scooted along faster than normal and at a further distance than usual. Between doing such, and with the wind blowing about 15 mph+, you can see how much paint is being blown away from the screen. Yet still, the "Plus' is managing to lay down a pretty even coating.

I must repeat this warning, and assurance that had I not been faced with such adverse condition for painting (wind) I would NOT have used the larger Spray Nozzle.(Front End Kit)
[font="Impact"][color="Red"]

http://s586.photobucket.com/albums/s...rstspray-2.flv

This second video shows the 2nd coat going up on the dual mirrors using the smaller Nozzle (Front End Kit) because blessedly, the wind had died down. Note the difference in painting speed across the surface. Distance "Spray Tip from Surface" was 12" - 14'



This last video shows the first coat going up onto a larger Mirror (96" x 54") in what can best be described as less than optimal lighting.
But really, spraying with the Wagner is so easy, you can almost do it with your eyes closed. But really, the consistency of the spray pattern is such that if you start 5'% off the top edge, and then drop no more than 505 of that distance to overlap each coat, as long as you can see your hand and the surface, you can be certain the coat is going up just fine.
(...assuming the gun isn't surging or sputtering in any way....)



Watching the last video, I found it amusing how the gradual loss of the mirror's reflected light resulred in the entire image going to "BLACK". It WAS that dark outside. And I applied two more coats after that as well.

Also watch that flexible Air Hose! It's just expanded 1.5" plastic Hose, and crush-able when stepped on. And crushing shuts off the Air...which upon returning with "Plus" force will hurl large spatters of "backed up paint". I mean LARGE! (quarter sized) But once again, if such an occurrence happens on top of dried paint...no problem. With such diluted wet paint, you can just dab off the bulk of it, them wipe off the rest and dust over the spot. The next full coating will cover. A fresh Mirror? SOL baby.....ya gotta wipe it all down and start over if the splatter runs onto freshly laid "Dust" because having an even Duster coat over a raw Mirror for a primer/base is very important. It's not called "Dust' because sections are overly slick with paint.

In summery, you can paint a screen using a Wagner Control Spray PLUS without having the smaller Nozzle that comes with the extra "Front End Kit", but EXTREME care must be taken to not dally, hesitate, or slow down as one moves across the material. Nor can one risk going "directly' over a just painted spot to correct a weak/missed area, beyond the overlapping that occurs with each row.

Soon I'll be trying a Screen job out using a less diluted Silver Fire Mix and using the "as it comes with" Front End of the "Plus'. I expect similar results as I got using my old Pressure fed HVLP Gun and it's wide 2.2 mm Needle/Nozzle. A slightly coarser finish. That might actually be a good thing now that PJ are as bright as they are and there is less a need for a Mirror smooth Flat finish( smooth reflects more light directly....while a slightly coarser finish refracts light and widens viewing cone,)


I'll post the results at this Thread location.

Also I invite questions, comments, and requests for further instructions, and invite any other member who paints his Screen using one of the Wagner Control Sprays to post any Video showing the use thereof, within this thread.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-30-2010, 03:09 PM
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I have a DD, and always put 2 turns on the 'slow the paint down' knob.

right/wrong?
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post #3 of 29 Old 02-02-2010, 07:56 AM
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Thanks for the videos Maurice. I just received my CS Plus and Front End Kit from Gleam. Everything showed up in one box. To my eye, the nozzles are identical and after reviewing the description of the FEK on the Gleam site, there is no mention of a difference from the stock nozzle. Any tips on determining what is what? Thanks.

Steve
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post #4 of 29 Old 02-02-2010, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srehn View Post

Thanks for the videos Maurice. I just received my CS Plus and Front End Kit from Gleam. Everything showed up in one box. To my eye, the nozzles are identical and after reviewing the description of the FEK on the Gleam site, there is no mention of a difference from the stock nozzle. Any tips on determining what is what? Thanks.

Steve


Unscrew the Retainer Ring and compare the needles and the Black needle guide and then report back......


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post #5 of 29 Old 02-02-2010, 09:09 AM
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Both of mine are identical with the needles looking like the one in the middle of your picture.
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post #6 of 29 Old 02-02-2010, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srehn View Post

Both of mine are identical with the needles looking like the one in the middle of your picture.

Well Crap.

I guess since they have discontinued the older model, they have now started issuing the same Front End as the newer models. Your the first to state such, as the last 3 sent to Gleams came away with the old style Kits.

This means that some adjustment as to viscosity (water added) should be made to alleviate the Spray's tendency to come out in larger droplets. There needs to be some back pressure so the exiting paint has time to atomize.

I'd start out by mixing the paint sans the extra water (or with just 2 oz.) and doing a test squirt as per the spraying directions. I've not as of yet done my own test but that will happen soon...by next week at latest, and it will be a "full Screen" test.

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post #7 of 29 Old 02-02-2010, 10:08 AM
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I will patiently await the Maestros results. Thank you for the assistance.

Steve
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post #8 of 29 Old 02-16-2010, 07:52 PM
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Just received my CS Plus and FEK from Gleem. The FEK is definitely the newer one with the larger pin.

I'm ready to mix up some Silver Fire 2.0 and start spraying so I'm also very anxious to hear about the viscosity adjustment results!
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post #9 of 29 Old 02-17-2010, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Folsom View Post

Just received my CS Plus and FEK from Gleem. The FEK is definitely the newer one with the larger pin.

I'm ready to mix up some Silver Fire 2.0 and start spraying so I'm also very anxious to hear about the viscosity adjustment results!

Simply reduce the Water amount listed in the Viscosity Base by 1/2 and strain the paint before spraying.

Spray technique remains the same, however drying times are increased by about 25%

If for any reason your completed mix seems to exit the Gun with a too weak pattern at the Top & Bottom, add additional water in 2 oz increments into the pre-strained paint.

When you test the spray pattern, it should hit the surface and immediately produce a even, 10"-12" tall vertical stripe

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post #10 of 29 Old 02-18-2010, 10:15 AM
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This is great info. Now I know where to start with the mix, what to look for and what to do if I don't get the expected result. Thanks!

I may be veering a little off topic, but have some additional questions, at least one being related (paint thinning)...

The Komatex substrate I purchased came to me with some scuffs and, in a couple places, shallow scratches on both surfaces. Given this, I thought I would spray a primer base of the Behr 4850 (that I purchased for my SF mix) on my chosen surface in the hopes it would fill the scratches and cover the scuffs before I start spraying on the SF mix.

The questions:
  1. Does it makes sense for me to do this?
  2. If yes, how many light coats should I spray on?
  3. What ratio of water to paint should I start with?
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post #11 of 29 Old 08-11-2010, 07:22 PM
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Just reviewing some old threads with videos. Trying to get the vixcosity of my mix down before spraying my Sintra screen. I'm using the Wagner DD with RS-MaxxMudd-Retro. No matter how thick or thin my mix is I seem to be seeing the same results. It's about 10-12" high but not a solid streak. It's hard to estimate percentages, but I see a lot of 1/8" droplets mixed in with the smaller ones (if it was a black background, it would look like a picture of the milky way on a very clear night). After doing a pass at 20 inches, it is not filled in solidly. A mix of the larger drops with the smaller mist one. If I go any slower, the paint will run. I started by mixing it very light on water and using the cup to measure runout time. Started test panels at 2 minutes runout. Mix is now at 1 minute. Any thinner and it would run. My first shot at the Sintra resulted in me wiping the whole surface down. Does anyone have any close up pictures or videos of the spray pattern? Anyone willing to take some close up photos?

Infamous last words: "Hold my beer. Watch this!"
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post #12 of 29 Old 08-12-2010, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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At no time will you ever see a solid fill occur on the first pass. It takes at least 3 passes to equate to such a "fill in".

20" distance is too much.

At no time should the ratio of water to paint ever have to exceed 33%, especially with a Wagner CS-DD whose needle / orifice is so large.

The paint always needs to strained through a Filter...and if your using the Flow-cup to judge viscosity and it's taking 1 minute to empty, then your surely not using enough water.

I don't use that Viscosity Measuring Cup. I judge the viscosity by observing how rapidly the paint drains through a Nylon Sock Filter. As you pour paint slowly into the top of the filter, it should drain through almost immediately. Not like water would, but it should not pool and rise so quickly that you must stop and wait for it to drain lest you cause the paint to overflow the top of the Filter stretched across the can's Top.

With thinned paint you apply the first coating as a Duster at 3' per second and don't even concern yourself with how spotty it looks. It's not meant to be ready to shoot an image onto...it's there to provide a tack base for the later 3 coats.

With thinned paint, and the CS-DD, when applying a normal coat you should keep a distance of 14" and a speed across the surface of 2 feet per second. A drop to the next row that allows for a 60% overlap of the preceding row. be certain to start / run off each edge at least 4' before dropping...and always start the Top row and finish the bottom row at least 60% past the leading edge.

You should be practicing your technique and getting the Gun's paint flow rate down on a practice sheet of something...not doing trial and error on the material that will become your screen.

One of the things that is so different between the Double Duty and the original Control Spray (...besides increased air flow...) is that the Mfg opted to enlarge the needle / orifice opening to accommodate the use of normal viscosity Latex paints. The original Wagner CS only suggested it be used for stains and varnishes. It's needle was more akin to a 1.5 mm needle on a regular HVLP Gun...and when using those Guns, one had to thin latex paint considerably...otherwise one had to switch to a 2.2 mm needle assembly...something that is still smaller than the blunt nosed needle on the DD.

Review the last two videos above. The Gun used is the "Plus' but it's very similar to the DD as far as output. Then watch this video (...the wind as blowing at about 10 mph...)



And note that I'm using a Mirror...not Sintra, so the appearance of coverage will seem greater than that of painting with the same technique on Sintra. You can easily see just how much paint is coming out of the Gun and how tall the pattern is vertically after I move away from the right side. Also, what you see being applied is the "Duster" coat.

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post #13 of 29 Old 01-14-2011, 07:34 PM
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Great videos here MM, thanks.

Any chance you could (or have) posted a video of you pouring your paint mix through the filter so we can have a look at how it behaves in terms of viscosity?
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-15-2011, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by develvjd- View Post

Great videos here MM, thanks.

Any chance you could (or have) posted a video of you pouring your paint mix through the filter so we can have a look at how it behaves in terms of viscosity?

I don't think I've ever taken any of that step.

But hey....just pour the paint quickly so it rises to the top of the Filter's depression, then stop and watch how fast it recedes. If it goes down steadily...not fast, but not "drag-arse" slow, it's probably right.

A slow pour should keep pace with the paint passing through the Filter. If when pouring slowly you have to stop and wait because the paint is pooling up, then that would indicate the paint it too thick.

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post #15 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 04:45 AM
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MM,
I have been following these threads for a couple weeks now and I am ready to purchase a sprayer. What is your preference? I can pick the Wagner DD up at HD for about the same price as the Gleem No Name. Does one work better than the other.
Thanks,
Bo
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post #16 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bo4uofm View Post

MM,
I have been following these threads for a couple weeks now and I am ready to purchase a sprayer. What is your preference? I can pick the Wagner DD up at HD for about the same price as the Gleem No Name. Does one work better than the other.
Thanks,
Bo

The one at Gleam allows you to interchange needles. It comes with a 2.0mm needle (same as the DD) however you can order a 1.5mm size which is akin to the size in the original Control Spray.

A smaller needle size means you dilute the paint more, but it also assures you of a finer finish.

BTW, the Mfg of the "No Name" is Graco.

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post #17 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 05:46 AM
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I can't find that needle on the Gleem Paint site. Do you think you could help me find the link? Thank you so much for your help.
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post #18 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bo4uofm View Post

I can't find that needle on the Gleem Paint site. Do you think you could help me find the link? Thank you so much for your help.

Post a Thread titled "Where to find smaller needles for "No Name" Electric HVLP.

You should get a rise. I looked myself and could not find the link.

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post #19 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 09:46 AM
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(I apologize for hijacking this thread)

The Graco 1.5mm needles for the no-name 2900 at Gleem are available for $30 ($25 + 5 S&H) from spray-station.com (Graco's website)

BTW Gleem only has about 35 "refurb" units left of the 2900s as of 2/2/11

Spray station (GRACO) also told me the 3900 comes with an extra 1.5 needle in addition to a 2.0(?). Also the turbine motor on the 3900 is 550watts as opposed to the 450w on the 2900. Their manual states the 3900 doesn't need to be thinned out as much (possible less runs).

http://www.spray-station.com/HV2900.html
http://www.spray-station.com/HV3900.html

The 3900 ($139+tax @ Lowes) Might be something to consider once Gleem Paint runs out of the 2900 (~$60 w/ S&H) + $30 tip = ~$90.
So if you have a other projects that need the backpack ($40 if bought separately).. might be worth the extra $50-60 bucks to have the better motor.

Wish the Wagner CS Front End Kit was still available.
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post #20 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Hijack? cbtk, you posted invaluable info for everyone. It is very much appreciated!!!

The Graco units are great because they have interchangeable Metal Needles that don't wear down with such diluted paints. Those Guns are truly an investment that is usable for many years to come on a variety of projects I'll tell ya I'm tempted to buy 'em all up off Gleem's site. Tempted. But sanity prevails.

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post #21 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 12:10 PM
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MM, which size tip do you use? I'm wondering if paying the $30 for a 1.5mm tip is a worthwhile expense.
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post #22 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aharami View Post

MM, which size tip do you use? I'm wondering if paying the $30 for a 1.5mm tip is a worthwhile expense.

I would say without question that it would be a great thing to have, switching to that size from 2mm after you have done your Dusters.

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post #23 of 29 Old 02-12-2011, 01:11 PM
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MMan I just rewatched your videos and it appears in them you always spray with the screen directly to the wall.
I was thinking about spraying my screen in the basement as it will be nearly impossible to get it down the stairs fully built.
The question I have is should I use drop clothes to create and entire spray booth with some sort of ventilation? Or can I just put up some cardboard or something behind it.
How much of the spray stays in the air. I don't want it to get sucked up the HVAC and pushed through the entire house.
Thanks.
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post #24 of 29 Old 02-12-2011, 02:59 PM
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hey mm....

is this video
http://s586.photobucket.com/albums/s...sExplosion.flv

the wagner CS PLUS?

Reason I ask is, mine doesnt put out that much pain at full bore.
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post #25 of 29 Old 02-12-2011, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calimark View Post

hey mm....

is this video
http://s586.photobucket.com/albums/s...sExplosion.flv

the wagner CS PLUS?

Reason I ask is, mine doesn't put out that much pain at full bore.

No...that was an Australian Model that was about 2x more powerful than the "Plus". The darn thing actually had a recoil! Scared the bejesus out of me the first time I cut it loose. Yeah....it was a real "Holy Sh_t" moment!

See how fast I'm going? That's 2x the normal speed even for a Duster. And I messed up as well, because at the bottom I noted that there was a weak area on the left side close to the vertical edge, so I thought, "I'll go back up in the opposite direction at "Light Speed" so as t even it out.

My bad. Very Bad. I got multiple massive runs across the Screen...actually took it down and outside and rinsed it off with a Hose!

But the primary reason it all happened was because that was the first time I had ever used a Wagner that sported the extra large Nozzle/needle of the DD/Plus/OMG versions. The extra pressure only served to make worse an unexpected situation.

When I started up again...I supplanted the larger sized Nozzle/Paint head with the standard CS version I had brought along "just in case". Between the greater pressure and a smaller Nozzle/Needle assembly, I had the fastest Spray Gun in OZ going for me, squirting a volume of fine mist you could not believe. I got a 14" to 16" tall pattern and I still had to scoot sideways about 2x faster than normal! Incredible.

Ya don't travel from Memphis to Perth, AU to paint 2-3 screens just to find out ya can't.
Unlike a Boomerang...I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have "come back".

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post #26 of 29 Old 02-12-2011, 07:41 PM
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Good I feel even better now.
When you told me in the other thread my paint looked sparse I was lil puzzled because I was trying to roll like in the video ( but I didnt realise how much paint that thing puts out until today)- and it looked like I wasnt painting anything.

I slowed to almos a crawl and things looked really good- thats when I started to wonder if I got a dud of a gun.
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post #27 of 29 Old 03-03-2011, 02:37 PM
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as of yesterday, i have in my possession a nearly new Wagner Optimus 5.4 dual head power paint. Since it was free, i had no choice but to accept it and the challenges i faced as to why it was free.

ok, it appears to have been used all of 1 time. On problem was... it look like someone dumped it into a paint bucket after 1 use and left it there to dry... the entire housing was caked in paint. i had to scrape and scrub it off with a knife and green scrubbing pad.

after scubbing down all the components... it's easy to see they are now relying on the technology of the european company they bought out... KREPS. There was a time when KREPS was the only reliable electric spray gun on the market.

i'll be testing it in the next couple days... and report my fndings
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post #28 of 29 Old 12-09-2012, 07:05 AM
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post #29 of 29 Old 12-09-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign.fodder View Post

FYI - HD has this unit now for 50% off --> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202839071#shipping_options

Wow Ensign.Fodder!

First Post and it comes with a real Gem of a find! Welcome aboard for sure!

This find demands a dedicated thread so as to let as many people know as possible.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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