Possible "Solution" for a White Ceiling? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, so I think I might be able to paint my walls a dark tan or brown, but the ceiling might have to stay white. The projector will be ceiling mounted anywhere from 11 to 16 feet (still deciding on screen sizes for my incoming W1000), and the top of the screen will be a touch lower than the projector (probably from 1.5-2.5 feet down from my 7 foot basement ceiling.)

So my question is this: What about some sort of hanging black curtain about 3-5 feet in front of the screen that *just* misses the top light path from the projector and hang it flush with the ceiling? Wouldn't this greatly assist with blocking any light that reflects back to the viewers eye from the ceiling? Maybe I'm missing something here, but if I can get the 'screen' low enough, I think you could have a 1-3 foot area that you could block that light bouncing off the ceiling...

What do you all think?
ohcello is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 11:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Fabricator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: far sw sub chicago
Posts: 1,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 11
that would do about half of it. the problem is, the white ceiling will reflect light back to the screen, and reduce the quality of the image.

chasing rattles ......

Pro8100 Cult member
Fabricator is offline  
post #3 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post

that would do about half of it. the problem is, the white ceiling will reflect light back to the screen, and reduce the quality of the image.

Understood. I do find the light from the ceiling back to me distracting however, so at least this might help with that part of it.
ohcello is offline  
post #4 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
fourtytwoinch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Report back when you get it done.

I've seen people do this in pictures. It was sagged down a bit.
fourtytwoinch is offline  
post #5 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtytwoinch View Post

Report back when you get it done.

I've seen people do this in pictures. It was sagged down a bit.

Gotcha...will do.
ohcello is offline  
post #6 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 07:28 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
OK Guys.....,

As Fabricator so deftly brought to point, the issue is more related as to what reflected light bouncing back "toward and onto" the screen will do to you image's contrast and color than anything else. After all, it's the image on screen you should be looking at most often, not the light show your ceiling is producing.

In this case, by virtue of the OP's statement, the Screen's top edge isn't limited to being 6'...12"....or even 18 " from the 7' Ceiling.

Oh No.....we can go 24"! I'll say from experience that if the Screen's edge is 24" down from the Ceiling, the Ceiling will have far less effect on the image than it is being given here.

If the OP can place the Screen at that height, and darken his walls, I don't think he'll be having any bothersome issues by leaving the Ceiling white....and "as is". Absolutely, setting the system up under that, as well as those previously mentioned stipulations is the first step, followed by some evaluation oriented viewing.

But if he does find the "light wash" from off the forward 4' of Ceiling that occurs during brightly lit scenes, is particularly obnoxious when experienced in a totally darkened room, then simply stapling up 48" wide bolt of Triple Black Velvet across the ceiling directly over the Screen will solve that handily, and the couple dozen 3/8" Flat Staple holes patch up later as easy as can be with one application of Spackle. A quicky "Rolled paint" touch up and whose the wiser...eh?

I won't tell.

....but if asked to testify, it was all your idea, naturally. .

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #7 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 08:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
fourtytwoinch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
why is velvet better than some cheaper material like felt?
fourtytwoinch is offline  
post #8 of 42 Old 02-14-2010, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

OK Guys.....,

As Fabricator so deftly brought to point, the issue is more related as to what reflected light bouncing back "toward and onto" the screen will do to you image's contrast and color than anything else. After all, it's the image on screen you should be looking at most often, not the light show your ceiling is producing.

In this case, by virtue of the OP's statement, the Screen's top edge isn't limited to being 6'...12"....or even 18 " from the 7' Ceiling.

Oh No.....we can go 24"! I'll say from experience that if the Screen's edge is 24" down from the Ceiling, the Ceiling will have far less effect on the image than it is being given here.

If the OP can place the Screen at that height, and darken his walls, I don't think he'll be having any bothersome issues by leaving the Ceiling white....and "as is". Absolutely, setting the system up under that, as well as those previously mentioned stipulations is the first step, followed by some evaluation oriented viewing.

But if he does find the "light wash" from off the forward 4' of Ceiling that occurs during brightly lit scenes, is particularly obnoxious when experienced in a totally darkened room, then simply stapling up 48" wide bolt of Triple Black Velvet across the ceiling directly over the Screen will solve that handily, and the couple dozen 3/8" Flat Staple holes patch up later as easy as can be with one application of Spackle. A quicky "Rolled paint" touch up and whose the wiser...eh?

I won't tell.

....but if asked to testify, it was all your idea, naturally. .


Thanks for the input. Let me know when you get that N7.5 formula for me =)

PS, the W1000 should be here tomorrow, but I only have my matte white screen or light tan wall to demo on, but I'll make due for now =)
ohcello is offline  
post #9 of 42 Old 02-16-2010, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, so I had to return the W1000 with rainbow issues, so I'm probably going to get an LCD 1080p projector, which will most likely mean that the brightness will not be as strong. However, I'm also going to be able to paint my walls a darker tan or light brown... so we'll see how this shakes out.
ohcello is offline  
post #10 of 42 Old 02-17-2010, 03:47 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtytwoinch View Post

why is velvet better than some cheaper material like felt?


Looks better. Absorbs light better.

It's just plain 'Mo Bedder.

ohcello,

You'll do Ok. Get a Epson 8100 (1800 lumens) or similar LCD
make those walls become as dark a "Flat" sheen as you can.
Brown is better than Tan.

I'm working on a easy solution to your Ceiling issue....stay tuned.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #11 of 42 Old 02-17-2010, 06:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Fabricator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: far sw sub chicago
Posts: 1,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 11
if you are on a budget, black felt will do just fine.

chasing rattles ......

Pro8100 Cult member
Fabricator is offline  
post #12 of 42 Old 02-18-2010, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Looks better. Absorbs light better.

It's just plain 'Mo Bedder.

ohcello,

You'll do Ok. Get a Epson 8100 (1800 lumens) or similar LCD
make those walls become as dark a "Flat" sheen as you can.
Brown is better than Tan.

I'm working on a easy solution to your Ceiling issue....stay tuned.

MM,

Thanks, but crucial update. Not only am I'm going to paint the walls dark drown (Duration Home matte, which is like flat, but washable), I just got the green light to paint the ceiling dark blue!!! Needless to say I'm quite happy. I will have a close to perfect cave working in several days time.

Based on this information, I might go with just a flat white wall for a while...but will that still have issues reflecting ambient light back??

Also, I'm 95% certain I'm getting the Viewsonic Pro8100, which is pretty darn bright. I will be shelf mounting it from 18.5 feet only about 110-120" wall, but this model is supposed to retain brightness pretty well zoomed out from long distances. (ProjectorCentral claims only 18% light loss from full tele to full zoom out)....

So at 18.5', and 120" onto my wall, the zoom is almost all the way out, but not all the way (zoomed out all the way, and you'll have a 111" image). According to Projector Central, this would give me 9 foot lamberts, but I'm not sure all their estimates are accurate.

What do you think? =)
ohcello is offline  
post #13 of 42 Old 02-19-2010, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok so here is what my room will be painted with:

Room 19' x 10' with the Screen towards the narrow end. Ceilings are about 7.5'.

Side walls - 'Kaffee SW6104' Light Reflective Value of 9 - (Dark Brown)
Finish will be Matte (Duration Home, so its very close to a flat sheen)

Back Wall - 'Sand Dollar SW6009' Light Reflective Value of 58 - (Light Tan)
Finish will be Matte also - Back wall is 19 feet from the screen and 7 feet behind the viewer so not a huge concern.

Screen Wall - Not sure yet, I might paint the whole thing with some Gray formula for now to test it out, but I will either keep it tan or paint it the dark brown

CEILING - 'Naval SW6244' Light Refective Value of 4 (yahoo!!) - (Very dark Navy Blue) - This will be a flat finish of course.

****

So while I originally was planning on a gray screen or wall, I might just use matte white with my new 'semi-cave' upcoming....

.....again, my only concern with matte white vs. gray is will ambient light still wash out the matte white screen, or should all the dark walls and ceiling cut down on this a good deal?
ohcello is offline  
post #14 of 42 Old 02-22-2010, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, so I just ordered the Epson 6500UB, and this will be ceiling mounted about 11-14' away, zoomed all the way in or close to it for max brightness.... My wall, which i will paint some shade of gray, can handle up to about 120" diagonal with a few inches of space on either side to the side walls and maybe 18" to the ceiling.
ohcello is offline  
post #15 of 42 Old 02-22-2010, 04:47 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

Ok so here is what my room will be painted with:

Room 19' x 10' with the Screen towards the narrow end. Ceilings are about 7.5'.

Side walls - 'Kaffee SW6104' Light Reflective Value of 9 - (Dark Brown)
Finish will be Matte (Duration Home, so its very close to a flat sheen)

If it ain't Flat......it will shine to some degree...but that might not happen if you chose the wrong paint solution because at 120" diagonal from 18.5 feet, even with a 1.0 gain surface (Gray or White) the best you'll get is 12 fl. even with a Epson 6500ub.

12 fl. is enough for a dark, dedicated room with effectively chosen room accouterments. (Colors, Lighting, Widow Treatments) But only if all such are in play to best effect.

No you'll need to have a Gray with a Gain of 1.2 or more. But of course that brings us back to the sheen you paint your surrounding surfaces.

Quote:


Back Wall - 'Sand Dollar SW6009' Light Reflective Value of 58 - (Light Tan)
Finish will be Matte also - Back wall is 19 feet from the screen and 7 feet behind the viewer so not a huge concern.

True enough. But "Tan or Brown" with a Blue?
If I was an "Interior Decorator type" I'd be throwing a hissy fit about now. But I'm not and
still it kinda grates on my sensibilities having seen so many 'right" color combos.

If you gotta have Tan or Brown, then go to a Ultra Dark Brown Ceiling with matching Trim (Base/Windows in Satin)

Quote:


Screen Wall - Not sure yet, I might paint the whole thing with some Gray formula for now to test it out, but I will either keep it tan or paint it the dark brown

Your overlooking a great idea your already responsible for seeding. Paint the Screen Wall the same Color as the Ceiling, letting that dark effect wrap down around the Screen./Shade

Quote:


CEILING - 'Naval SW6244' Light Refective Value of 4 (yahoo!!) - (Very dark Navy Blue) - This will be a flat finish of course.

There has to be a better combo than Brown/Tan and Dark Blue.........

****

Quote:


So while I originally was planning on a gray screen or wall, I might just use matte white with my new 'semi-cave' upcoming....

.....again, my only concern with matte white vs. gray is will ambient light still wash out the matte white screen, or should all the dark walls and ceiling cut down on this a good deal?

If you have ambient Light that strikes the Screen...and its a Matte White surface....it will wash it out. The Walls & Ceilings being a correct color / sheen only bespeaks that they will not contribute to the distraction. But allow the light from a lamp or window to enter even a BLACKED out rrom, and with a White Screen, the Screen's image will suffer.

Here's a good suggestion. Go with a Medium shade Bluish Gray on the walls, and use that Dark Blue on the Ceiling. You could consider the Glidden Color "Misty Evening" for the walls. Years ago it was a popular "OCW" Screen paint (OCW = One Can Wonder) just prior to the advent of Behr Silver Screen.

Paint all the Walls with Misty Evening, but mix the Screen wall's portion as a Silver Fire 1.0, pull down the Ceiling Color as a "Trim" surrounding the Screen area, and hit the Screen wall with the image from the 6500ub.

You might just stop there, (...the Screen wall will look Black...believe me...) but adding some Black Velvet surface trim around the edges of the Screen area is a mighty nice touch.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

OK, so I just ordered the Epson 6500UB, and this will be ceiling mounted about 11-14' away, zoomed all the way in or close to it for max brightness.... My wall, which i will paint some shade of gray, can handle up to about 120" diagonal with a few inches of space on either side to the side walls and maybe 18" to the ceiling.

Ok...back to the Sheen of the Wall paint. At "...a few inches...." you had better make those walls as dark...and as Flat a color as you can or suffer the consequences. And there will be consequences otherwise, made worse by using ANYTHING other than a Flat. I can't make that any clearer.

Once again, Intelligent Design can come into play. Besides the Screen Wall, wrap the Ceiling Color down and around the two adjoining Side walls about 4' off the Screen wall. Maybe add an angle where the Top of the Angle starts at 4' and the Bottom hits the Baseboard at 6'. All you have to do is just "Mask" that ultra close in reflected light from the Screen with a really dark, FLAT sheen-ed surface and you can paint those Walls that lie outside outside that area with your Matte or Satin paint of Choice.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #16 of 42 Old 02-22-2010, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

If it ain't Flat......it will shine to some degree...but that might not happen if you chose the wrong paint solution because at 120" diagonal from 18.5 feet, even with a 1.0 gain surface (Gray or White) the best you'll get is 12 fl. even with a Epson 6500ub.


True enough. But "Tan or Brown" with a Blue?
If I was an "Interior Decorator type" I'd be throwing a hissy fit about now. But I'm not and
still it kinda grates on my sensibilities having seen so many 'right" color combos.

If you gotta have Tan or Brown, then go to a Ultra Dark Brown Ceiling with matching Trim (Base/Windows in Satin)



Your overlooking a great idea your already responsible for seeding. Paint the Screen Wall the same Color as the Ceiling, letting that dark effect wrap down around the Screen./Shade



There has to be a better combo than Brown/Tan and Dark Blue.........

****



If you have ambient Light that strikes the Screen...and its a Matte White surface....it will wash it out. The Walls & Ceilings being a correct color / sheen only bespeaks that they will not contribute to the distraction. But allow the light from a lamp or window to enter even a BLACKED out rrom, and with a White Screen, the Screen's image will suffer.

Here's a good suggestion. Go with a Medium shade Bluish Gray on the walls, and use that Dark Blue on the Ceiling. You could consider the Glidden Color "Misty Evening" for the walls. Years ago it was a popular "OCW" Screen paint (OCW = One Can Wonder) just prior to the advent of Behr Silver Screen.

Paint all the Walls with Misty Evening, but mix the Screen wall's portion as a Silver Fire 1.0, pull down the Ceiling Color as a "Trim" surrounding the Screen area, and hit the Screen wall with the image from the 6500ub.

You might just stop there, (...the Screen wall will look Black...believe me...) but adding some Black Velvet surface trim around the edges of the Screen area is a mighty nice touch.





Ok...back to the Sheen of the Wall paint. At "...a few inches...." you had better make those walls as dark...and as Flat a color as you can or suffer the consequences. And there will be consequences otherwise, made worse by using ANYTHING other than a Flat. I can't make that any clearer.

Once again, Intelligent Design can come into play. Besides the Screen Wall, wrap the Ceiling Color down and around the two adjoining Side walls about 4' off the Screen wall. Maybe add an angle where the Top of the Angle starts at 4' and the Bottom hits the Baseboard at 6'. All you have to do is just "Mask" that ultra close in reflected light from the Screen with a really dark, FLAT sheen-ed surface and you can paint those Walls that lie outside outside that area with your Matte or Satin paint of Choice.



A few clarifications:

---I will be mounting this at 12', so I think can get up to 18FL as it will be just about all the way zoomed in.

---The paint colors and finished have been purchased and approved by the wife,...they will not change, and they will be an improvement over what I have now as I have duration home matte in a light tan on the walls now....I'm telling you it is very, very close to a flat finish...but we'll see when the chips are down either way. The screen wall will be the same color as the walls....dark brown.... no negoiating these points =)=) To be honest, I really don't care what colors the walls and ceiling are...this room has one function....it's very narrow and it's not used for any other purpose.

---I hear you on the walls being close... if they are too close, I'll just zoom out a bit until it's not an issue. If I have to have a 113" image instead of a 120", no problemo. Perhaps I can get away with painting the first 4 inches the flat ceiling color, but we'll see.

---So do you still suggest a Silver Fire 1.0 even if I have the projector mounted 12' instead of 18' giving me about 4-6 more FL's?? At 16-18FL, can I try and go for a .9 or .8 gain??

Thanks.... I know this is not all ideal, but still a huge improvement from light tan matte walls and a flat white ceiling.....
ohcello is offline  
post #17 of 42 Old 02-22-2010, 08:09 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

---I hear you on the walls being close... if they are too close, I'll just zoom out a bit until it's not an issue. If I have to have a 113" image instead of a 120", no problemo. Perhaps I can get away with painting the first 4 inches the flat ceiling color, but we'll see.

---So do you still suggest a Silver Fire 1.0 even if I have the projector mounted 12' instead of 18' giving me about 4-6 more FL's?? At 16-18FL, can I try and go for a .9 or .8 gain??

Absolutely on point one, negatory on question 2. With the PJ on Low lamp for maximum Contrast, as well as minimizing the use of the Auto Iris feature, having a Gray Screen with 1.1 to 1.2 gain will be about perfect for your situation. Use the balance between reducing the PJ's Lumen output and having a positive gain High Contrast surface to shoot on will create a perfect image for your needs.

Quote:


Thanks.... I know this is not all ideal, but still a huge improvement from light tan matte walls and a flat white ceiling.....

I heard that! Your bound to still get some reflected light headed back toward the Screen, but a positive gain Gray screen will combat the effect of such better than any other alternative besides going with the different room colors that would themselves eliminate the problem. Ya said ya can't go there, so where your heading is the next best solution for sure.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #18 of 42 Old 02-22-2010, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Absolutely on point one, negatory on question 2. With the PJ on Low lamp for maximum Contrast, as well as minimizing the use of the Auto Iris feature, having a Gray Screen with 1.1 to 1.2 gain will be about perfect for your situation. Use the balance between reducing the PJ's Lumen output and having a positive gain High Contrast surface to shoot on will create a perfect image for your needs.



I heard that! Your bound to still get some reflected light headed back toward the Screen, but a positive gain Gray screen will combat the effect of such better than any other alternative besides going with the different room colors that would themselves eliminate the problem. Ya said ya can't go there, so where your heading is the next best solution for sure.

so If I could do flat finish on the walls the first 4-6 inches, would you still suggest the same gain/paint mixture?...or if I decided to zoom out to get more clearance from the walls?....

ps, thanks for all your input.... really amazing stuff...
ohcello is offline  
post #19 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 02:22 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

so If I could do flat finish on the walls the first 4-6 inches, would you still suggest the same gain/paint mixture?...or if I decided to zoom out to get more clearance from the walls?....

No matter what, if you want to use Low lamp mode and still have a vibrant image, you want to stay at least slightly above 1.0 gain.

Few who have set their hearts on a bigger screen are ever satisfied with going smaller.

Quote:


ps, thanks for all your input.... really amazing stuff...

Thanks. What's amazing is that some people actually bother to read any of it.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #20 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

No matter what, if you want to use Low lamp mode and still have a vibrant image, you want to stay at least slightly above 1.0 gain.

Few who have set their hearts on a bigger screen are ever satisfied with going smaller.

Thanks. What's amazing is that some people actually bother to read any of it.

Well I'm coming from a 92" matte white, so 110 might be 'good enough', but 120 would be ideal I admit. However, maybe you can explain something to me about econ mode.... is it preferable to use econ mode from an image quality perspective? Epson *claims* anyway that high and econ mode will get you 4000 hours either way.... So if I use high mode with .8 gain vs. econ with 1.1 gain (or whatever the equivalent would be), is there some advantage in picture quality with sticking with eco mode?

OK so spackled last night and I think painting starts tonight..... oh one more note... even if the wife does not want flat blue on the walls for the first 4-6 inches from the screen, I can always get a quart of the same brown in flat and use that for the first foot or so....and so I'll have the ultra low sheen new the 'screen'..... =)
ohcello is offline  
post #21 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 07:37 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

Well I'm coming from a 92" matte white, so 110 might be 'good enough', but 120 would be ideal I admit. However, maybe you can explain something to me about econ mode.... is it preferable to use econ mode from an image quality perspective? Epson *claims* anyway that high and econ mode will get you 4000 hours either way.... So if I use high mode with .8 gain vs. econ with 1.1 gain (or whatever the equivalent would be), is there some advantage in picture quality with sticking with eco mode?

First off the emphasis is not about Bulb Life here, but having adequate light reflected back to the viewer at the screen size you desire. Contrast is King as far as determining image quality along the lines of Color gradients, Shadow detail combined with the depth of shading of the darkest elements as opposed to the brightest elements of the image.

Most Brighter PJs always have a harder time maintaining decent Contrast (...as well as accurate Color balance....) in Normal Lamp mode so when they are calibrated, almost ALWAYS it's done with the PJ on Low Lamp.

Epson's latest "UB" units employ a infinitely adjustable Iris that automatically opens and closes based upon both the room's brightness, and the brightness level of the projected content. As such, it's main forte is producing the absolute deepest levels of Black....but averaging out all the rest. That leaves the rest of the Content with less deeper Blacks than otherwise desired, or that can be produced by PJs that, wile they cannot achieve 70K:1 Contrast, they DO produce deeper "averaged out across the board" Black levels.

When I use an Epson, I use it with a High Gain Gray Screen (SF or RS-Maxx) and reduce the action of the Iris to a minimum level. Often I maintain High lamp so I can blast a darker Gray surface, one that is larger than most. The combination of a Darker surface that still has a positive Gain factor, and a bright but still contrasty image coming from the PJ produces a better overall image than the Epson can muster with a White Screen in a dark room. With such a High Contrast/High gain surface, you can achieve a great balance between Brightness and Contrast-oriented depth, resulting in an extremely "3-D" like image. (...another good argument (er...suggestion...) to approach the Wife with....)

All that is not discredit to the Epson, mind you....just a realization that with the proper set-up, the Epson can perform to it's maximum potential instead of using it's attributes to try to perform "up to" expectations. You can believe that everything about how the Epsons are designed is to help alleviate the undesirable conditions often faced by the average user. If the "Dedicated Home Theater" sect was still the only targeted market, we would not be seeing the "Uber Contrast w/Brightness" approach being taken. All of that is to make the PJs more attractive to the Common man.

Quote:


OK so spackled last night and I think painting starts tonight..... oh one more note... even if the wife does not want flat blue on the walls for the first 4-6 inches from the screen, I can always get a quart of the same brown in flat and use that for the first foot or so....and so I'll have the ultra low sheen new the 'screen'..... =)

I'd not bother with 4" to 6". The reflected light from the Screen will not be coming out at a 90 degree right angle to center, so that small an area will not be of any real advantage except to frame that end of the Room.

Yeah, it's hard to convince even someone who WANTS to know how something affects overall performance if they both do not fathom the nuances, nor really care much about them. Wives can usually land squarely in that description..

Straight up, unless you can mask off at least " 4 FEET " of the side walls with a light suppressive paint solution, don't even bother.

There is a right way to do this...and a wrong way....as well as whatever way your forced to do it in. If the latter is part and parcel to the second item, well ya really just have to accept that. No amount of hopeful wishing...or running the PJ on Low lamp is going to magically make things any different that what has been described as going to happen otherwise. Nor will using any type Screen application compensate for a overly reflective wall residing just inches away from a Screen's edge. The only real hope you have, short of castrating your Screen size inward to the point it reduces sideways reflections by virtue of being smaller, is to firmly point out to the Little Woman why such painting considerations are necessary, allow her to convince you to do it her way at first, then let her see the end result and how it affects the overall situation.

After you say; "See....I told ya so...." (...iffin ya dare....) if there is a chance you'll be able to recoup and repaint those side walls, that will be the time.

I sincerely hope it pans out that way for ya.

BTW, thank YOU for being so willing to read my opinionated discourse. In my rush to try to make anyone's project measure up to standards I hold myself to, I can get a bit more effusive than most. But hopefully...and most of the time, my enthusiastic and often pointed remarks should/can be taken for what they are....advice tendered with only the best possible intentions toward the recipient and his project.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #22 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

First off the emphasis is not about Bulb Life here, but having adequate light reflected back to the viewer at the screen size you desire. Contrast is King as far as determining image quality along the lines of Color gradients, Shadow detail combined with the depth of shading of the darkest elements as opposed to the brightest elements of the image.

Most Brighter PJs always have a harder time maintaining decent Contrast (...as well as accurate Color balance....) in Normal Lamp mode so when they are calibrated, almost ALWAYS it's done with the PJ on Low Lamp.

Epson's latest "UB" units employ a infinitely adjustable Iris that automatically opens and closes based upon both the room's brightness, and the brightness level of the projected content. As such, it's main forte is producing the absolute deepest levels of Black....but averaging out all the rest. That leaves the rest of the Content with less deeper Blacks than otherwise desired, or that can be produced by PJs that, wile they cannot achieve 70K:1 Contrast, they DO produce deeper "averaged out across the board" Black levels.

When I use an Epson, I use it with a High Gain Gray Screen (SF or RS-Maxx) and reduce the action of the Iris to a minimum level. Often I maintain High lamp so I can blast a darker Gray surface, one that is larger than most. The combination of a Darker surface that still has a positive Gain factor, and a bright but still contrasty image coming from the PJ produces a better overall image than the Epson can muster with a White Screen in a dark room. With such a High Contrast/High gain surface, you can achieve a great balance between Brightness and Contrast-oriented depth, resulting in an extremely "3-D" like image. (...another good argument (er...suggestion...) to approach the Wife with....)

All that is not discredit to the Epson, mind you....just a realization that with the proper set-up, the Epson can perform to it's maximum potential instead of using it's attributes to try to perform "up to" expectations. You can believe that everything about how the Epsons are designed is to help alleviate the undesirable conditions often faced by the average user. If the "Dedicated Home Theater" sect was still the only targeted market, we would not be seeing the "Uber Contrast w/Brightness" approach being taken. All of that is to make the PJs more attractive to the Common man.



I'd not bother with 4" to 6". The reflected light from the Screen will not be coming out at a 90 degree right angle to center, so that small an area will not be of any real advantage except to frame that end of the Room.

Yeah, it's hard to convince even someone who WANTS to know how something affects overall performance if they both do not fathom the nuances, nor really care much about them. Wives can usually land squarely in that description..

Straight up, unless you can mask off at least " 4 FEET " of the side walls with a light suppressive paint solution, don't even bother.

There is a right way to do this...and a wrong way....as well as whatever way your forced to do it in. If the latter is part and parcel to the second item, well ya really just have to accept that. No amount of hopeful wishing...or running the PJ on Low lamp is going to magically make things any different that what has been described as going to happen otherwise. Nor will using any type Screen application compensate for a overly reflective wall residing just inches away from a Screen's edge. The only real hope you have, short of castrating your Screen size inward to the point it reduces sideways reflections by virtue of being smaller, is to firmly point out to the Little Woman why such painting considerations are necessary, allow her to convince you to do it her way at first, then let her see the end result and how it affects the overall situation.

After you say; "See....I told ya so...." (...iffin ya dare....) if there is a chance you'll be able to recoup and repaint those side walls, that will be the time.

I sincerely hope it pans out that way for ya.

BTW, thank YOU for being so willing to read my opinionated discourse. In my rush to try to make anyone's project measure up to standards I hold myself to, I can get a bit more effusive than most. But hopefully...and most of the time, my enthusiastic and often pointed remarks should/can be taken for what they are....advice tendered with only the best possible intentions toward the recipient and his project.

Intereresting points about the Epson....

A few points....


----my wife does not care, nor will she ever care about picture quality or about the walls or light reflection... or any of this stuff.... that being said... I can probably paint 4 feed flat brown and should would probably never notice that it's flat and the rest of the wall matte Duration home.... the reason I got duration home as that dark flat scared me a bit from a cleaning perspective.....

OK, so let's assume that I will either 1) zoom out to 108 or whatever to take the side walls 'out of the equation' enough or 2) Stay at 120", but I will paint the first 4-6 feet of the walls flat dark brown. ------------Do you still suggest Silver Fire 1.0?

EDIT.... I forgot to address that fact that I would prefer spending too much time or money on this.... I was reading the boards and another 6500UB owner expressed the same sentiment a few months ago and you advised him:

".............If you want that sort of thing using immediately available ingrediants, go for MMud-SE or the next up from that, RS-MaxMudd. Rolled, the MMud-SE is perfectly able to give the 6500 a pallet on which to show both it's muscle and finesse, and because it uses less Silver Metallic than the other offerings, your all the more assured of getting a screen surface that is invisible....that is does not offer up any granularity. Ditto with RS-MaxxxMudd, and it rolls well too, but from 2' to 3' you will see a little Screen composition. ...................."

Let me know your thoughts..... even if MMud-SE or RS-MaxMudd is not as 'ideal' as Silverfire, I'm ok with that.... I just don't went to spend more than about $70 and don't want to have to go all over creation or online, etc.... Thanks!
ohcello is offline  
post #23 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 12:14 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
You don't have to go "all over creation' to assemble RS-MaxxMudd or MMud-SE, but you do have to go to 2 stores. for that matter, if Michaels has everything that needs to come from them, then even Silver Fire is a '2-Stop Shop'.

RS-MaxxMudd then. Standard mix.

I hope your good with a Roller though.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #24 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

You don't have to go "all over creation' to assemble RS-MaxxMudd or MMud-SE, but you do have to go to 2 stores. for that matter, if Michaels has everything that needs to come from them, then even Silver Fire is a '2-Stop Shop'.

RS-MaxxMudd then. Standard mix.

I hope your good with a Roller though.

Thanks....How much would Silver Fire cost me? Also the wall has tan Duration home matte on there now.... do I need to prime or how many coats of either Silver Fire or RS_MaxxMudd would you suggest?

Thanks again man!!
ohcello is offline  
post #25 of 42 Old 02-23-2010, 02:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pb_maxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 2,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 17
and if your not so good... and can accept a slightly less ambient friendly outcome... make it with an additional 3oz of white.
pb_maxxx is offline  
post #26 of 42 Old 02-24-2010, 08:56 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

Thanks....How much would Silver Fire cost me?

Since you'd want to spray the SF on, and the Color components add to the cost of the base Paints & Sprayer (Wagner), you'd probably bust through that $70.00 ceiling to the tune of approx. $100.00 instead.

Quote:


Also the wall has tan Duration home matte on there now.... do I need to prime or how many coats of either Silver Fire or RS_MaxxMudd would you suggest?

Thanks again man!!

You will need to prime the Screen wall area where the Screen surface will be....at the least.

Let's be certain of this, if you decide to use Silver Fire, you'll spray it on in 4 Coats, 1 "Duster" and two "normal" coats, followed by another Duster.

If it's RS-MaxxMudd, then Rolling can be considered. 3 normal (not thick) coats over a 2x primed surface.

Be advised though that just recently I've been helping a fellow AVS'er who rolled on RS-Maxxmudd and got a few of those dreaded "Roller Marks". He related that the image he got was absolutely stunning, but he found that...as so many have when rolling on any type paint....that it seems that he can't help but notice AND focus his attention to the Roller Marks whenever they appear during brightly lit scenes.

Any high contrast surface, and especially one that contains metallic-s, is very susceptible to showing the defects that exist in either the application of such, or existing imperfections on the surface itself. Such is the price/risk you take when striving for true High performance in a reflective surface.

But if you spray that risk is reduced to almost zero. So the aforementioned Gentleman is making up some additional RS-MaxxMudd, and re-priming (via rolling) and then "Spraying" it on with his newly acquired Wagner CS-HD

As PB suggested, using a RS-MaxxMudd mix with an increased portion of the pure White paint will effectively make Rolling it on a lot less of a concern. This is certainly a better option than omitting the use of the metallic-s altogether.

I say stick with my original suggestion of RS-MaxxMudd Standard but do everything you can to consider spraying it on. That singular decision will spell a important difference as to just how high the performance-to-effort ratio develops. Also, you'll spend about the same...including the Wagner....for both applications. SF Colorant Mix adds about $25.00 to the cost of the the paint mix beyond the components needed for RS-MaxxMudd itself.

If you do decide to pull out all stops and go for SF 2.0-Sprayed, I'll do anything short of Kidnapping the Wife to help your project realize your greatest expectations....and beyond. Just ask.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #27 of 42 Old 02-24-2010, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Since you'd want to spray the SF on, and the Color components add to the cost of the base Paints & Sprayer (Wagner), you'd probably bust through that $70.00 ceiling to the tune of approx. $100.00 instead.



You will need to prime the Screen wall area where the Screen surface will be....at the least.

Let's be certain of this, if you decide to use Silver Fire, you'll spray it on in 4 Coats, 1 "Duster" and two "normal" coats, followed by another Duster.

If it's RS-MaxxMudd, then Rolling can be considered. 3 normal (not thick) coats over a 2x primed surface.

Be advised though that just recently I've been helping a fellow AVS'er who rolled on RS-Maxxmudd and got a few of those dreaded "Roller Marks". He related that the image he got was absolutely stunning, but he found that...as so many have when rolling on any type paint....that it seems that he can't help but notice AND focus his attention to the Roller Marks whenever they appear during brightly lit scenes.

Any high contrast surface, and especially one that contains metallic-s, is very susceptible to showing the defects that exist in either the application of such, or existing imperfections on the surface itself. Such is the price/risk you take when striving for true High performance in a reflective surface.

But if you spray that risk is reduced to almost zero. So the aforementioned Gentleman is making up some additional RS-MaxxMudd, and re-priming (via rolling) and then "Spraying" it on with his newly acquired Wagner CS-HD

As PB suggested, using a RS-MaxxMudd mix with an increased portion of the pure White paint will effectively make Rolling it on a lot less of a concern. This is certainly a better option than omitting the use of the metallic-s altogether.

I say stick with my original suggestion of RS-MaxxMudd Standard but do everything you can to consider spraying it on. That singular decision will spell a important difference as to just how high the performance-to-effort ratio develops. Also, you'll spend about the same...including the Wagner....for both applications. SF Colorant Mix adds about $25.00 to the cost of the the paint mix beyond the components needed for RS-MaxxMudd itself.

If you do decide to pull out all stops and go for SF 2.0-Sprayed, I'll do anything short of Kidnapping the Wife to help your project realize your greatest expectations....and beyond. Just ask.

Thanks. I'll see what I can do about getting a power sprayer either way.... and then decide on which paint mixture to use... just curious what you think about the simple SilverScreen/pearl mix I see on some posts here..... compared to the SF2 or the RS-MaxxMudd..... Thanks.
ohcello is offline  
post #28 of 42 Old 02-24-2010, 11:44 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

Thanks. I'll see what I can do about getting a power sprayer either way....

Not just any "Power Painter" but this specific one.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_51589-97-CON...Ntk=i_products

The one shown in the Link is the Older Control Spray, but Lowes also has the newer "Double Duty" for the same price...or close.

The Bad Boy among Wagner HVLPs is the Control Spray Plus.
http://www.gleempaint.com/wagner-con...pray-plus.html

With that Sprayer you can paint a ROOM, yet maintain precise enough control to produce a ultra smooth Screen surface. It's the one I use now almost exclusively, perhaps more because it cuts my old Spraying times a full 50%...and they were already pretty darn short!!!!

Simply speaking, it's made a simple job simply faster to accomplish.

Quote:


....and then decide on which paint mixture to use... just curious what you think about the simple SilverScreen/pearl mix I see on some posts here..... compared to the SF2 or the RS-MaxxMudd..... Thanks.

It's a Gray paint with some added metallic content. I have often suggested that formula (...as I myself 1st advocated it....) for those who were determined to use SS but still wanted a little boost for whites & lighter colors.

That's what it is....a little boost that makes that mix a little better than stock Silver Screen. But it's not comparable to either of the more advanced mixes.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #29 of 42 Old 02-24-2010, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ohcello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Not just any "Power Painter" but this specific one.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_51589-97-CON...Ntk=i_products

The one shown in the Link is the Older Control Spray, but Lowes also has the newer "Double Duty" for the same price...or close.

The Bad Boy among Wagner HVLPs is the Control Spray Plus.
http://www.gleempaint.com/wagner-con...pray-plus.html

With that Sprayer you can paint a ROOM, yet maintain precise enough control to produce a ultra smooth Screen surface. It's the one I use now almost exclusively, perhaps more because it cuts my old Spraying times a full 50%...and they were already pretty darn short!!!!

Simply speaking, it's made a simple job simply faster to accomplish.



It's a Gray paint with some added metallic content. I have often suggested that formula (...as I myself 1st advocated it....) for those who were determined to use SS but still wanted a little boost for whites & lighter colors.

That's what it is....a little boost that makes that mix a little better than stock Silver Screen. But it's not comparable to either of the more advanced mixes.


Good to know.... thanks.... at least I have a 'fallback', but I still intend to try of the mixtures we've been talking about...

hey I was spackling tonight (should be able to paint in 1-2 days) and when sanding the dried spackle, I noticed something...... if you have enough layers of paint on the sheet rock and you sand the paint (I have palm sander) you get a *really smooth* paint finish..... now I'm not sure if this would leave 'other artifacts' if you tried to do an entire wall, but It sure as heck seem a lot less 'flawed' then the 'rolled' wall around it. I'm curious if you (or anyone else you've conversed with) might have ever tried this to one of the mixtures when rolled, etc..... *just curious*!!
ohcello is offline  
post #30 of 42 Old 02-25-2010, 07:10 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,116
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
I'm curious if you (or anyone else you've conversed with) might have ever tried this to one of the mixtures when rolled, etc..... *just curious*!!

I have of course. Sanding down the painted-on texture that comes from Rolling with 1/2"+ nap rollers was always a necessity, even back when I was rolling on a Screen paint solution.
I never used a Palm or Orbital Sander on Drywall as I was afraid of going "too Far" and because it covers such a smallish area...and can leave a circular pattern of scratches. But I'm sure it's a art that can be mastered. As for me and what I personally recommend, for sanding an entire wall I use a 3" x 8" x 1' medium Grit Sanding Sponge. It seems to allow me to sand as lightly as i want where I want, yet apply direct "spot" pressure on troublesome areas. Also, the pressure you put on the Sponge with you flattened Palm is equally distributed over a large area. Lastly, it allows you to "Sweep" the surface is long strokes...and this more than anything else helps you to get a uniform sanded surface across large expanses.

But I always sanded the entire surface if I primed it, before & after priming. However......one of the detrimental aspects was that once you've got a wall so smooth after sanding down a painted finish, when rolling your roller would have the tendency to "slide" instead of roll. Even when painting with a sprayer, the slippery surface would increase the possibilities of having Runs develop.

But having that virtually perfect, uniform surface was/is always worth the effort, because with it, the ONLY texture that can be imparted will come from the method and/quality of the paint application, and if you can address that and apply whatever paint correctly, that ultra smooth primed surface will help you get a ultra smooth screen. You want that.

You will prime the wall after all the sanding, at least 2x, and after that 2nd priming, that is when you examine the entire surface for any noticeable differences in texture or previously unseen defects. Often, a very light sanding across the entire Primed area is all that is needed, but sometimes you cannot see certain defects in the applied Dry Wall Compound or the sanded down paint until you apply the Primer coats. If that happens, you simply "spot apply" some Compound to the needed area, than lightly sand and prime that spot again.

It's the "pits", "pinholes", and "cracks" your looking for, because you should have had no trouble getting rid of the raised areas such as bumps and such. But when you sand, underlying defects covered with paint can jump out. Let's hope that's not the case for you.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
Reply DIY Screen Section

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off